The legendary Campagnolo moment in 1927
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The legendary Campagnolo moment in 1927
A good Cliff Notes summery of cycling in the 1920's
Last edited by Barrettscv; 06-01-19 at 10:53 AM.
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Yes, this moment may be viewed as the genesis of the Campagnolo company but the invention of the quick release had little impact at the time and Campagnolo would not become a major force until the 1950s. Most riders outside Italy clung to wing nuts. Even within Italy, the quick release was found primarily on bicycles equipped with Campagnolo's Cambio Corsa gear change mechanism and only then because it was an integral part of the sliding axle mechanism. That system was cumbersome and antiquated even in its day. Campagnolo needed something better and in 1950 released the Gran Sport parallelogram derailleur, which was heavily influenced by the Ghiggini parallelogram derailleur, whose patents he bought. This would be Campagnolo's first big commercial success and his 1st invention, the quick release, would piggy back on the Gran Sport's success to finally become a staple in the cycling industry, over two decades after its invention. Had it not been for Ghiggini, Campagnolo and his quick release may have faded into obscurity.
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Hold on there Hoss. The CC was invented in 1933 and was being raced no later than 1938, probably sooner. The competition was the Vittoria Margherita. In no way shape or form is the CC cumbersome or antiquated to the VM.
As for the Ghiggini having a "heavy" influence, have you ever heard the phrase 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration? That is what it takes to bring a successful product to market. I'd say the Ghiggini at best was 0.5% and the Nivex was another 0.5%.
As for fading into obscurity, help a brother out, ask your crystal ball for some winning lotto numbers for me.
As for the Ghiggini having a "heavy" influence, have you ever heard the phrase 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration? That is what it takes to bring a successful product to market. I'd say the Ghiggini at best was 0.5% and the Nivex was another 0.5%.
As for fading into obscurity, help a brother out, ask your crystal ball for some winning lotto numbers for me.
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Hold on there Hoss. The CC was invented in 1933 and was being raced no later than 1938, probably sooner. The competition was the Vittoria Margherita. In no way shape or form is the CC cumbersome or antiquated to the VM.
As for the Ghiggini having a "heavy" influence, have you ever heard the phrase 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration? That is what it takes to bring a successful product to market. I'd say the Ghiggini at best was 0.5% and the Nivex was another 0.5%.
As for fading into obscurity, help a brother out, ask your crystal ball for some winning lotto numbers for me.
As for the Ghiggini having a "heavy" influence, have you ever heard the phrase 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration? That is what it takes to bring a successful product to market. I'd say the Ghiggini at best was 0.5% and the Nivex was another 0.5%.
As for fading into obscurity, help a brother out, ask your crystal ball for some winning lotto numbers for me.
Comparing the operation of a post war Simplex to the Campagnolo is no contest. IMO, the Simplex wins, hands down. Granted, the Vittoria Margherita wasn't much easier to operate than the Campagnolo.
I don't know how much influence the Nivex had on the Gran Sport but there is no doubt about the Ghiggini, given that Campagnolo bought his patents. I also have no doubt that Campagnolo worked very hard to develop his products. However, in this case Campagnolo did not have the inspiration, he bought it from someone else and developed it. Without that inspiration where would Campagnolo have been? That's conjecture but it's not inconceivable that the company could have faded into obscurity, just like Vittoria. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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I consider the prime contemporary for Campagnolo Cambio Corsa to be the post war Simplex push rod models, for the simple reason that Campagnolo's derailleur was not commercially available in any notable quantity prior to or during the war. Campagnolo didn't patent it until 1940, the same year he hired his first employee. Prior to that, he had been labouriously and personally manufacturing them, then demonstrating and maintaining them for teams whom he would persuade or pay to use them. I've seen circa 1938-1940 pre-war catalogues for several brands that used the Campagnolo derailleur on their team bicycles but the derailleur was not on the catalogued models. For all intents and purposes, they were racing prototypes used for research and development. So, while it didn't may have been invented in 1933, I consider it a post war derailleur in terms of public availability.
Comparing the operation of a post war Simplex to the Campagnolo is no contest. IMO, the Simplex wins, hands down. Granted, the Vittoria Margherita wasn't much easier to operate than the Campagnolo.
I don't know how much influence the Nivex had on the Gran Sport but there is no doubt about the Ghiggini, given that Campagnolo bought his patents. I also have no doubt that Campagnolo worked very hard to develop his products. However, in this case Campagnolo did not have the inspiration, he bought it from someone else and developed it. Without that inspiration where would Campagnolo have been? That's conjecture but it's not inconceivable that the company could have faded into obscurity, just like Vittoria. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Comparing the operation of a post war Simplex to the Campagnolo is no contest. IMO, the Simplex wins, hands down. Granted, the Vittoria Margherita wasn't much easier to operate than the Campagnolo.
I don't know how much influence the Nivex had on the Gran Sport but there is no doubt about the Ghiggini, given that Campagnolo bought his patents. I also have no doubt that Campagnolo worked very hard to develop his products. However, in this case Campagnolo did not have the inspiration, he bought it from someone else and developed it. Without that inspiration where would Campagnolo have been? That's conjecture but it's not inconceivable that the company could have faded into obscurity, just like Vittoria. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Also, have you seen the Ghiggini patent drawings? If you actually built it, it wouldn't work, way too flimsy. It is only inspiration. Ghiggini couldn't follow through even if he wanted. And what is the Ghiggini patent? It is a simple 4-bar linkage. About as "groundbreaking" as the cam Tullio used for the quick release. It is not new now, it wasn't new then. Have you ever brought something to market? And he bought the patent so Simplex couldn't use it and was stuck making a crappy cone-spring crap for a decade.
Nope. Campagnolo knew how to innovate, the Nieduus knew how to beat a dead horse. There is nothing to disagree about, those are facts of product development.
I also like that you conveniently leave out developing a groupset.
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There are extant pre-war bicycle catalogues where the Vittoria Margherita is listed as standard equipment on top
models. For example the 1937 Legnano catalog...
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The subject patent only covers the sliding hub mechanism. It does not include any mechanism for derailing the chain, only giving vague suggestions in lines 85-93. Consequently, it's only a patent for a semi-automatic chain tensioner. It is is not a derailleur patent for the Cambio Corsa, as it only covers one of the two processes of a derailleur. I've read that Campagnolo only considered the sliding hub mechanism to be patentable and that this was the rationale for the limited scope of the patent. Yet, the 1943 patents on the Disraeli gears site define the derailing rod mechanism. Together the two patents define a Cambio Corsa, so I consider the patent date for a Cambio Corsa to be 1943.
There are extant pre-war bicycle catalogues where the Vittoria Margherita is listed as standard equipment on top
models. For example the 1937 Legnano catalog...
There are extant pre-war bicycle catalogues where the Vittoria Margherita is listed as standard equipment on top
models. For example the 1937 Legnano catalog...
VM is not in the 1939 Ancora, 1938 Benotto, 1930 Bianchi, 1931 Bianchi, 1932 Bianchi, 1934 Bianchi, 1935 Bianchi, 1937 Bianchi, 1939 Bianchi, 1940 Bianchi, 1937 Frejus, 1938 Frejus, 1934 Ganna, 1938 Ganna, 1930 Legnano, 1932 Legnano, 1933 Legnano, 1934 Legnano, 1934 Maino, 1939 Olympia, 1936 Touring, 1937 Touring, 1938 Touring, 1935 Wolsit and 1936 Wolsit catalogs.
You see it in the 1936 Legnano, 1938 U. Dei and 1939 U. Dei. It is an exception to be standard equipment. And if you mistakenly think VM wasn't around much, below is World Champion Giuseppe Martano in 1932 and amuateur Gino Bartali in 1933.
Martano 1932 by iabisdb, on Flickr
Bartali 1933 by iabisdb, on Flickr
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Why did you skip lines 55-85? Combine that with 85-93, you have cambio corsa. The 1943 patent is what is called a continuation. The cambio corsa was standard equipment on Bianchi in 1940. If used in 1940, you cannot get a patent in 1943 after public disclosure. That's how patents work.
VM is not in the 1939 Ancora, 1938 Benotto, 1930 Bianchi, 1931 Bianchi, 1932 Bianchi, 1934 Bianchi, 1935 Bianchi, 1937 Bianchi, 1939 Bianchi, 1940 Bianchi, 1937 Frejus, 1938 Frejus, 1934 Ganna, 1938 Ganna, 1930 Legnano, 1932 Legnano, 1933 Legnano, 1934 Legnano, 1934 Maino, 1939 Olympia, 1936 Touring, 1937 Touring, 1938 Touring, 1935 Wolsit and 1936 Wolsit catalogs.
You see it in the 1936 Legnano, 1938 U. Dei and 1939 U. Dei. It is an exception to be standard equipment. And if you mistakenly think VM wasn't around much, below is World Champion Giuseppe Martano in 1932 and amuateur Gino Bartali in 1933.
Martano 1932 by iabisdb, on Flickr
Bartali 1933 by iabisdb, on Flickr
VM is not in the 1939 Ancora, 1938 Benotto, 1930 Bianchi, 1931 Bianchi, 1932 Bianchi, 1934 Bianchi, 1935 Bianchi, 1937 Bianchi, 1939 Bianchi, 1940 Bianchi, 1937 Frejus, 1938 Frejus, 1934 Ganna, 1938 Ganna, 1930 Legnano, 1932 Legnano, 1933 Legnano, 1934 Legnano, 1934 Maino, 1939 Olympia, 1936 Touring, 1937 Touring, 1938 Touring, 1935 Wolsit and 1936 Wolsit catalogs.
You see it in the 1936 Legnano, 1938 U. Dei and 1939 U. Dei. It is an exception to be standard equipment. And if you mistakenly think VM wasn't around much, below is World Champion Giuseppe Martano in 1932 and amuateur Gino Bartali in 1933.
Martano 1932 by iabisdb, on Flickr
Bartali 1933 by iabisdb, on Flickr
I didn't skip lines 55-85. All they do is describe what has to take when changing gears using a multiple cog freewheel. It does not include the design of an apparatus to perform the function, which is what constitutes a patent. The Campagnolo patent only defines the design of the sliding hub which provided semi-automatic chain tensioning for an undefined derailing device. Call the 1943 patent a continuation if you will but it's the earliest known patent to contain the design of Campagnolo's derailing apparatus.
The photos you've posted aren't of the Vittoria Margherita but its early 1930s predecessor, the Vittoria, which was a simple, manual chain tensing device. There is no evidence of a derailing mechanism, which in the Vittoria Margherita constituted two steel fingers on top of the back end of the chainstay.
You won't see the Vittoria Margherita prior to the late 1930s. However, I have seen the Vittoria in early 1930s catalogues, specifically Legnano. Regardless, the inclusion of the Vittoria and Vittoria Margherita products in the Dei and Legnano catalogs indicate that they were at least commercially available prior to the war. By contrast, no such evidence exists for the Campagnolo Cambio Corsa. At the very least, it would appear that the Vittoria products were more widely available and better accepted, at the time.
Another notable point regarding the photos is that both bicycles are using wing nuts, as opposed to Campagnolo's quick release. Again, this would seem to indicate that Campagnolo's quick release was not as revolutionary as is generally considered. It wasn't a mandatory feature on top amateur and professional racing bicycles, even in Italy, which was my original point.
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I didn't skip lines 55-85. All they do is describe what has to take when changing gears using a multiple cog freewheel. It does not include the design of an apparatus to perform the function, which is what constitutes a patent. The Campagnolo patent only defines the design of the sliding hub which provided semi-automatic chain tensioning for an undefined derailing device. Call the 1943 patent a continuation if you will but it's the earliest known patent to contain the design of Campagnolo's derailing apparatus.
The photos you've posted aren't of the Vittoria Margherita but its early 1930s predecessor, the Vittoria, which was a simple, manual chain tensing device. There is no evidence of a derailing mechanism, which in the Vittoria Margherita constituted two steel fingers on top of the back end of the chainstay.
You won't see the Vittoria Margherita prior to the late 1930s. However, I have seen the Vittoria in early 1930s catalogues, specifically Legnano. Regardless, the inclusion of the Vittoria and Vittoria Margherita products in the Dei and Legnano catalogs indicate that they were at least commercially available prior to the war. By contrast, no such evidence exists for the Campagnolo Cambio Corsa. At the very least, it would appear that the Vittoria products were more widely available and better accepted, at the time.
Another notable point regarding the photos is that both bicycles are using wing nuts, as opposed to Campagnolo's quick release. Again, this would seem to indicate that Campagnolo's quick release was not as revolutionary as is generally considered. It wasn't a mandatory feature on top amateur and professional racing bicycles, even in Italy, which was my original point.
The photos you've posted aren't of the Vittoria Margherita but its early 1930s predecessor, the Vittoria, which was a simple, manual chain tensing device. There is no evidence of a derailing mechanism, which in the Vittoria Margherita constituted two steel fingers on top of the back end of the chainstay.
You won't see the Vittoria Margherita prior to the late 1930s. However, I have seen the Vittoria in early 1930s catalogues, specifically Legnano. Regardless, the inclusion of the Vittoria and Vittoria Margherita products in the Dei and Legnano catalogs indicate that they were at least commercially available prior to the war. By contrast, no such evidence exists for the Campagnolo Cambio Corsa. At the very least, it would appear that the Vittoria products were more widely available and better accepted, at the time.
Another notable point regarding the photos is that both bicycles are using wing nuts, as opposed to Campagnolo's quick release. Again, this would seem to indicate that Campagnolo's quick release was not as revolutionary as is generally considered. It wasn't a mandatory feature on top amateur and professional racing bicycles, even in Italy, which was my original point.
First gen VM is nonetheless VM. And yes, if you use your fingers to move the chain, it is a derailleur. I should know, I do it when I ride my bike with it.
Cambio corsa is in the 1940 Bianchi catalog. Prior to Italy declaring war on anyone. And again, while VM was certainly available prewar, raced in the early 30s, you don't see it in catalogs. Are you saying it was not commercially available prior to 1936? How did it magically appear on Martano's and Bartali's bike?
What happened to Tullio was making no money for 7 years despite taking banner ads for his derailleur in 1933 and later in the top sporting newspaper in Italy?
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CICLISMO in "Enciclopedia dello Sport"
The relevant section.
Il 25 ottobre 1931, nel Giro di Lombardia, il piccolo scalatore Barral non scende di bici per cambiare rapporto all'attacco del Ghisallo: monta un cambio ideato dai fratelli Nieddu a Torino. Il cambio Vittoria, di Amedeo e Tommaso Nieddu, si afferma al Giro del 1932. Con una ruota libera a tripla corona viene adottato anche da tutta la squadra azzurra ai Campionati del Mondo di Rocca di Papa: i trionfi di Binda, tra i professionisti, e di Martano, tra i dilettanti, contribuiscono a lanciarlo.
È un momento di grandi novità per i materiali. Con il cambio Vittoria bisogna spostare la catena a mano da un pignone all'altro, ma il 4 maggio 1933 Tullio Campagnolo brevetta il suo famoso cambio a bacchetta. Anche le novità della tecnologia risentono dei tempi: così i torinesi Nieddu, nel 1934, mettono in commercio il cambio Dux.
The relevant section.
Il 25 ottobre 1931, nel Giro di Lombardia, il piccolo scalatore Barral non scende di bici per cambiare rapporto all'attacco del Ghisallo: monta un cambio ideato dai fratelli Nieddu a Torino. Il cambio Vittoria, di Amedeo e Tommaso Nieddu, si afferma al Giro del 1932. Con una ruota libera a tripla corona viene adottato anche da tutta la squadra azzurra ai Campionati del Mondo di Rocca di Papa: i trionfi di Binda, tra i professionisti, e di Martano, tra i dilettanti, contribuiscono a lanciarlo.
È un momento di grandi novità per i materiali. Con il cambio Vittoria bisogna spostare la catena a mano da un pignone all'altro, ma il 4 maggio 1933 Tullio Campagnolo brevetta il suo famoso cambio a bacchetta. Anche le novità della tecnologia risentono dei tempi: così i torinesi Nieddu, nel 1934, mettono in commercio il cambio Dux.
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I enjoyed the video, as I usually enjoy them. They are a lot of theater and not a lot of information. Once you know that, you can have fun.
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However I was raised with the do it right or don’t do it philosophy at home and professionally. Others mileage may vary ..
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While the patent is British, I doubt the derailing mechanism was lost in translation. Normally, the design of the derailing mechanism would be included in an illustration, of which there is none.
To the best of my knowledge there is no requirement to "get" a patent prior to public disclosure, Certainly, it's prudent to apply for a patent prior to marketing or publicly displaying a product, so that your idea is not patented by someone else. I know there is a current requirement to apply for a patent within 1 year of public disclosure. What is current law may not have been applicable during the inter-war period and/or in foreign countries. The 1943 French patent states that it's the French version of an Italian patent filed April 22, 1943.
By you logic, if can use you fingers to move the chain, then you can also use your fingers to tension the chain and any bicycle with more than one cog can be considered to have a derailleur, even if there is no mechanism that performs either function. With all due respect, I don't buy into that rationale.
...corsa is in the 1940 Bianchi catalog. Prior to Italy declaring war on anyone. And again, while VM was certainly available prewar, raced in the early 30s, you don't see it in catalogs. Are you saying it was not commercially available prior to 1936? How did it magically appear on Martano's and Bartali's bike?...
I'm saying that what I consider to be the Margherita (ie. your 2nd version) wasn't commercially available until around that time. That's the earliest catalogue that I've found it in. It was probably commercially available earlier but a Legnano catalogue that's no earlier than 1934 show's it's Vittoria predecessor (ie. your version 1), so the Margherita appears to have had it's commercial debut in 1935 or 1936. That fits pretty well with the August 1934 application for the French patent.
While the Vittoria may have been available earlier than 1934, I have yet to find any catalogues from that period that include it. The brand most likely to have spec'd it was Legnano, but it's not in their 1931 literature, despite a November 1930 Italian patent application. I haven't seen Legnano catalogues for 1932 or 1933 and it may be in one of them. It would certainly make sense to capitalize on it for 1933, after Binda used one to win the 1932 World Championships. Racers, even top amateurs, may have been given copies prior to it going to market, especially if they were representing Italy at a prestigious event, like the World Championships.
I never said he wasn't making any money. I just said that the pre-war version of the Cambio Corsa were basically prototypes being R&D's by the race teams. There would have been some money coming in from the contract manufactured hubsets. But with no employees, no prestigious race wins to capitalize on and no evidence of it being spec'd on brands prior to the 1940 Bianchi Folgore, I doubt you could get one through the LBS. It's probably not co-incidental that his hiring of his first employee co-incides with the earliest evidence of a contact with bicycle brand.
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I'm so done with your made-up bull****. Either cite a source or pretend to think you know something.
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Thought I would add this to the discussion. Monument to Tullio in Croce d'Aune, IT. Taken while there two weeks ago to see the penultimate stage of il Giro. Not my picture, the crowds were too great to try to cross the road, but taken by one of my tour mates. It was quite the experience to descend from there to Pedavena with literally thousands of other cyclists. It seems to get there you either needed to live there, or ride your bike up to the pass. We had a beer at a brewery across the street from the team bus parking lot. It was crazy seeing the pros have to ride with the masses from the finish to the team bus. All in all, it was easy to see why the Italians have a reputation of thriving on chaos.
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