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Adjustable cup stuck on Frenchie-use longer spindle to eliminate play?

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Adjustable cup stuck on Frenchie-use longer spindle to eliminate play?

Old 01-24-20, 09:22 AM
  #1  
vegasbike
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Adjustable cup stuck on Frenchie-use longer spindle to eliminate play?

Hi,
I have an 82-3? motobecane mirage/sport? with French or Swiss threading? My research says French
(fixed cup says sakae 35XPI-L, Japan SI
adjustable cup says: SAKAE SP-SC, 35XP1 Japan
Anyhow, I got the fixed cup off but the adjustable cup will not budge. Ive tried Sheldons tool- bolt sheared off, penetrating oil etc. LBS tried too. NO luck! although they thought I wouldn't have to remove 'adj cup 'cause its already set' I guess that guy was confusing it with fixed cup (volunteer at shop I think)
So.. I thought **** it perhaps the threads are fkd anyway and I don't want to buy a special/(expensive treadless cup from phlil woods or velo orange anyway why not leave it in there anyway?
Since I cannot adjust the adj cup then there is a bit more play than id like-
Question is
Can I use a longer spindle to make up for the excessive play-therefore pushing the cones tighter to the bearings OR maybe adjusting cones to press up against races for a better fit?
or is there a way to 'pad' it a touch to eliminate play?
Basically my adj cup is a second fixed cup
Thx in advance

Last edited by vegasbike; 01-24-20 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 01-24-20, 10:00 AM
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An Italian spindle has the bearing races 3 mm further apart then British.
No idea what French is???
If you have 3mm or less slop, I guess (on paper?) you could set the pre load with the right amount of spacer/shim under the DS cup.
Not something I'd mess with. Would you fix an old YUGO?
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Old 01-24-20, 10:37 AM
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If the fixed cup was a right hand thread then the shell is French, not Swiss, otherwise they are the same dimensionally. An adjustable cup could be used in place of the fixed cup, with a lock ring to use as the bearing adjustment function, IF there's enough cup threads sticking out of the shell for the LR to spin onto. I suspect a shop with a Kingsbridge cup vice might have better luck on the frozen cup. If you're near Rochester, NY I can try mine. Andy
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Old 01-24-20, 10:46 AM
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You could also machine a small amount off the inner face of the fixed cup.
Not very cost effective if you have to pay for the work.
It'd probably be trial & error and hope you don't remove too much.
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Old 01-24-20, 11:38 AM
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I've never been able to NOT get any cup off a bottom bracket shell by using Sheldon's BB Removal Tool idea. I use a bolt that just fits through the spindle hole in the cup. Sometimes if the cup is really tight I'll turn the bolt the opposite way as that usually tightens the cup a bit more and that's enough to beak loose whatever caused it to be frozen. If you really want to get the cup off I'd try spraying the cup NOT the bottom bracket shell with something like a tire inflator CO2 cartridge until it's empties. That should cool the cup enough to cause it to shrink enough to break loose if you get the tool back on quickly or use the CO2 trick with the tool in place.

Good luck and cheers
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Old 01-24-20, 11:47 AM
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If you want to try it would can always take the biggest nut and bolt that will fit through the spindle hole. You don't want it to be very long, and bolt it through the cup, higher grade hardware is best. Once you have it really tight turn whichever nut or bolt that is in the direction you want to go that will continue to tighten the nut and bolt together. So you might have to use a socket and extension through the bb shell depending on direction. Don't use any washers or lock washers, you want all the friction you can get. If it still doesn't move, use more leverage. Penetrating oils like liquid wrench also work wonders if used first, set the frame on it's side and every couple hours spray inside the shell around the inner lip of the cup and keep letting it soak. That's probably the main area for rust from water getting in and seeping into the threads.
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Old 01-24-20, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by vegasbike View Post
Hi,
I have an 82-3? motobecane mirage/sport? with French or Swiss threading? My research says French
(fixed cup says sakae 35XPI-L, Japan SI
adjustable cup says: SAKAE SP-SC, 35XP1 Japan
Anyhow, I got the fixed cup off but the adjustable cup will not budge. Ive tried Sheldons tool- bolt sheared off, penetrating oil etc. LBS tried too. NO luck! although they thought I wouldn't have to remove 'adj cup 'cause its already set' I guess that guy was confusing it with fixed cup (volunteer at shop I think)
So.. I thought **** it perhaps the threads are fkd anyway and I don't want to buy a special/(expensive treadless cup from phlil woods or velo orange anyway why not leave it in there anyway?
Since I cannot adjust the adj cup then there is a bit more play than id like-
Question is
Can I use a longer spindle to make up for the excessive play-therefore pushing the cones tighter to the bearings OR maybe adjusting cones to press up against races for a better fit?
or is there a way to 'pad' it a touch to eliminate play?
Basically my adj cup is a second fixed cup
Thx in advance
The hole through the fixed cup should be 17 mm, or so. You broke a 5/8" bolt trying to muscle that puppy out of there? How about an impact wrench?
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Old 01-24-20, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
If the fixed cup was a right hand thread then the shell is French, not Swiss, otherwise they are the same dimensionally. An adjustable cup could be used in place of the fixed cup, with a lock ring to use as the bearing adjustment function, IF there's enough cup threads sticking out of the shell for the LR to spin onto. I suspect a shop with a Kingsbridge cup vice might have better luck on the frozen cup. If you're near Rochester, NY I can try mine. Andy
...this is what I would try first (if I gave up on the adjustable cup removal). Another adjustable cup and lock ring as a replacement for the fixed cup you removed.
Have you tried using a 50/50 mixture of acetone and ATF as your penetrating lubricant ? That stuff is magical, and has freed up a lot of stuck stuff for me.
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Old 01-24-20, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
The hole through the fixed cup should be 17 mm, or so. You broke a 5/8" bolt trying to muscle that puppy out of there? How about an impact wrench?
I didn't break the bolt-stripped the nut and the bolt head
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Old 01-24-20, 12:24 PM
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Thats a great idea-adjustable cap with lock ring in place of the fixed cup.. would I need the exact same model/French thread adjustable cup?
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Old 01-24-20, 12:26 PM
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I guess I could keep trying-but this thing would not budge at all-I kept spraying pb blaster into the cup from both sides-tightened bolt from the inside of BB so that it goes in the correct direction but not even a creak
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Old 01-24-20, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by vegasbike View Post
I didn't break the bolt-stripped the nut and the bolt head
Grade 8 bolt & nut, or something lower grade?
Keep in mind, you are basically trying to remove a 1-3/8" bolt with a head designed for a 5/8" bolt.
It HAS to be extra strong.
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Old 01-24-20, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by vegasbike View Post
I guess I could keep trying-but this thing would not budge at all-I kept spraying pb blaster into the cup from both sides-tightened bolt from the inside of BB so that it goes in the correct direction but not even a creak
Weird and it makes me wonder if the bottom bracket shell and adjustable cup are flattened a bit somewhere?

Cheers
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Old 01-24-20, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
If the fixed cup was a right hand thread then the shell is French, not Swiss, otherwise they are the same dimensionally. An adjustable cup could be used in place of the fixed cup, with a lock ring to use as the bearing adjustment function, IF there's enough cup threads sticking out of the shell for the LR to spin onto. I suspect a shop with a Kingsbridge cup vice might have better luck on the frozen cup. If you're near Rochester, NY I can try mine. Andy
would I need to find French thread adjustable cup/washer to use on fixed side? stupid question
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Old 01-24-20, 08:52 PM
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Yes- Rob another French Bb whose cup walls are the same or thicker then the original's and use that left cup and lock ring. But this is a discovery process as the cup could thread in too far to allow the lock ring to work or too little and the crank arm rubs on the cup face (more an issue on the non drive side). Andy
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Old 01-24-20, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by vegasbike View Post
I didn't break the bolt-stripped the nut and the bolt head
Use grade 8 fasteners with a quality 6-point flank drive socket on a breaker bar.

Grade 8 fasteners are harder.

Flank drive sockets push on the large wrench flats, not the tiny corners.

Quality sockets may fit better and won't flex then strip fasteners.

Buy a used 1/2" drive 6 point flank drive Snap-On socket off e-bay.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 01-24-20 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 01-25-20, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
If the fixed cup was a right hand thread then the shell is French, not Swiss, otherwise they are the same dimensionally.
Looks like the OP has a Swiss thread frame:

Originally Posted by vegasbike View Post
fixed cup says sakae 35XPI-L, Japan SI
I suspect a shop with a Kingsbridge cup vice might have better luck on the frozen cup.
I suspect you're right. Kingsbridge, Zeus, and others made professional-quality cup vises that ought to do the job.

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Old 01-25-20, 10:29 AM
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If you are trying to salvage the bearing the cup vises are good. If not, you could use more aggressive processes. Heat is one tool used by machinists to remove problematic nuts and bolts. This would require 1) care in not overheating the frame, and 2) repainting the BB. You could heat the BB and the cup to ensure that the threads get hot, then let it cool. Or cool whole thing down in an ice bath (if you really want to be exotic, use an isopropanol dry ice bath) and then dry the thing and hit the outside of the BB with a torch. Again, heating the frame up beyond a certain temperature could hurt the metal strength, so care is recommended.

Or, you could use a 2" abrasive wheel in a small angle grinder to cut a couple of slots and finish the cuts with a carbide saw.

Or you could take a 1/4" by 2" steel bar, mill a slot at the very center, and weld the bar to the cup, which would provide a very good wrench handle.
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Old 01-28-20, 09:56 AM
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Maybe this is a dumb question, but are you turning the non-drive side cup in the correct direction? If you aren't, that explains why nothing is moving. It would be a shame to do something to the frame that may be risky if what is really neeed is to turn the other way.
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Old 01-28-20, 11:33 AM
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I would use penetrating oil into the cup threads for a few days. If the cup has metal exposed, sticking out of the shell, use a punch and hit around the edge aiming toward the center. Sharp but not real hard, and only if you can keep from hitting any part of the shell or frame. PB blaster is good, maybe drops of lacquer thinner into the threads. The cup may have been installed into a shell with paint that hadn't fully dried, but probably rust. Can you post a pic? If you are surgically careful, you can use a hack saw to cut from the spindle hole outward almost through the cup, but NOT into the threads of the shell. 2 of those and hammer / punch.

Last edited by grizzly59; 01-28-20 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 02-24-20, 12:48 PM
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SUCCESS!!
I finally got it out. few days of sitting in pb blaster and a new hex bolt/nut released it. Im now wondering about cone replacement as the cones on the axle are preventing smooth operation
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Old 02-24-20, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by vegasbike View Post
SUCCESS!!
I finally got it out. few days of sitting in pb blaster and a new hex bolt/nut released it. Im now wondering about cone replacement as the cones on the axle are preventing smooth operation
Your cup was Sakae Ringyo; you should be able to source a compatible spindle. Take the old one into a bike shop and use it to match the spacing between the race shoulders, the extension past the race shoulders, and the overall length (dimensions A, B, C, and D, below):

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Old 02-24-20, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by vegasbike View Post
SUCCESS!!
I finally got it out. few days of sitting in pb blaster and a new hex bolt/nut released it. Im now wondering about cone replacement as the cones on the axle are preventing smooth operation
I would assume you've destroyed the adjustable cup races.
IS that what you mean, or do you need a spindle/axle too?
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