burnthesheep

"Diet" as a verb should be stricken from people's vocabulary. "Diet" is most useful as a noun.

It's what a healthy human consumes day in and day out, mostly for lifetime.

It's not something you do once every 5 years once a doctor tells you of some pending disaster or ailment. Of course, it could be that should you find yourself in that situation.

But, treating it more like a noun might help one not find themselves having to use it as a verb.

If you want to argue keto and human history...........agrarian society has signs as far back as 23000 years ago. I'm not a "5000 years old Earth" person, but bread appears super early in the Bible also.

Meaning, it's disingenuous to claim keto is "the diet of our ancestors". It's not, unless you're talking about even more than 23000 years ago.

For reference, Neanderthals interbred around 70000 years ago. So, 23000 years is plenty of time for genetic adaptations to agrarian society.

It's totally unnecessary to try to draw that parallel to justify keto because it doesn't make sense. People didn't start getting obese and diabetic at modern rates until maybe 30 years ago. Maybe 50. Not 23000 years.

Leisesturm

I don't know of a form of exercise that burns more than 600 Cals/hr. YOU might be able to devote 10hrs/wk to an exercise program but today's teenagers have crushing school workloads and school phys ed programs have been slashed to nothing and the intramural athletics promote team sports that are largely anaerobic, and most players spend more time on the bench than on the field anyway. Up to about age 27 with a half-way reasonable diet a human need not be fat. After that they may start to fill out, but most will not be alarmed until ~35 y.o. As I understand it 1lb of excess weight is 3500 C. So someone with a serious amount of weight to lose ... cycling (this is a cycling forum!) is not going to cut it. Teens? Why are we bringing teens into this anyway? There are obese teens, yes, but I don't think you can make a comparison between a 17y.o. that is 25 lbs. overweight with a 50 y.o. that is 100lbs overweight. There are far more of the latter. And cycling cannot help them. Running might, but if you are 100lbs overweight, a high impact aerobic like running is probably unwise. Nope, for anyone with some serious weight issues that is serious about tackling them, an exercise bike, rowing machine or elliptical machine, is the way to accomplish the cardio end of it. You don't want to be worried about traffic, or road hazards, when you are logging your cycling miles. You will need 60 to 90 minutes of cardio DAILY or you are just kidding yourself. For cardiovascular health 20 min/dy is sufficient. For weight reduction of someone seriously (>50lb) over ideal weight, you would want no less than 500 to 600 Cal burned per session, seven days per week.

Or you can take the 500 Cal off of daily intake? 50/50? Sounds good to me. It's probably what most people end up doing. This Keto stuff though ...?? I don't know the first thing about it. I do know from Low Carb. We all know what carbs are. It doesn't need to be harder than eliminating the 'worst' of what we call carbs: the simple sugars, and sharply reducing intake of the more complex carbs. I believe what people call a "Mediterranean Diet" accomplishes those goals. A person could take it even further and try to eliminate carbs altogether. Try being the operative word. What you end up with is probably sustainable for a long time and you will need a long time. The 50lbs. are not going to be gone in one month! But if a diet is asking you to add fats ... melt sticks of butter into $10/lb. coffee ... IDK ... there is such a thing as trying too hard ...

mickeyaaaa

yep, eggs are healthy :eyeroll: Get real.

gregf83 

Crushing workloads? You're kidding right? There's about 112 hours/wk of productive time available. The only excuse for not being able to allocate 10 hrs to exercise is lack of desire. Perhaps they need to cut back on watching TV or playing on the computer.

Sure it will. It won't happen overnight but they didn't get fat overnight either.

OP is a teenager.

livedarklions

https://thescienceofnutrition.wordpr...review-part-1/

OBoile

And that just shows how far off the deep end you've gone...

OBoile

Seriously? Ride at 200 watts for an hour and you'll burn around 720. Try jogging and you'll burn even more.

Weight loss is mostly about diet... but the idea that you can't burn a fair amount of calories through exercise isn't true either.

mickeyaaaa

No, it shows how uninformed you are.

wolfchild

An intense kettlebell workout can easily burn more than 600 calories per hour.

wolfchild

They are very healthy, especially the organic free-range eggs. They are perfect for breakfast.

mickeyaaaa

More like perfect for heart attacks.

DrIsotope

I don't know what kind of eggs this guy is on about, but good old-fashioned chicken eggs have been shown to raise HDL cholesterol with no rise or change in LDL cholesterol, so if anything, regularly eating eggs could potentially reduce a person's risk of heart disease.

livedarklions

Keto-vegan cage match!!!!!

DrIsotope

No judgements, but every full-bore vegan I've ever known has been a top-tier ranked "sick all the time" type of person. Always made me wonder.
Counterpoint, every keto-adherent has been just... obnoxious. "Oh... I can't eat that. Or that. Or that, or that. I'll just have a burger patty with nothing on it. What grade is the beef?"

willibrord

https://thescienceofnutrition.wordpr...cal-fallacies/

livedarklions

[QUOTE=willibrord;21046813]https://thescienceofnutrition.wordpr...cal-fallacies/
"In 1977, dietary recommendations (called Dietary Goals) created by George McGovern’s Senate Select Committee advised that, in order to reduce risk of chronic disease, Americans should decrease their intake of saturated fat and cholesterol from animal products and increase their consumption of grains, cereal products, and vegetable oils. These Goals were institutionalized as the DGA in 1980, and all DGA since then have asserted this same guidance. During this time period, the prevalence of heart failure and stroke has increased dramatically. Rates of new cases of all cancers have risen. Most notably, rates of diabetes have tripled. In addition, although body weight is not itself a measure of health, rates of overweight and obesity have increased dramatically. In all cases, the health divide between black and white Americans has persisted or worsened."


At first I couldn't figure out why you posted a link to an article that so thoroughly debunks Teicholz, but then realized you thought you were proving something with that quote. Thanks for the laugh, I have never seen a more blatant case of someone not understanding what they're linking . and quoting absurdly out of context.

You do realize that the article you linked that contains that quote actually does so to completely debunk it, right? Teicholz lied about all of the cardiovascular trends, which have all gotten much better during the time period she's discussing, and cancer rates have remained fairly steady.

Try actually reading the article you linked instead of just incompetently quote mining and you'll learn why Teicholz is completely full of bs.

willibrord

[QUOTE=livedarklions;21046839]Keto works:
read this article
https://www.bikeforums.net/newreply....ply&p=21046839

livedarklions

[QUOTE=willibrord;21047233]No. You have wasted enough of my time. /Ignore.

guachi

How, in the age of Google, do you not know of a form of exercise that burns more than 600 kcal/hour? I mean, just look at the name of this forum for starters.

But I'll add: rowing, jogging (even slowly), jazzercise, basketball, water polo, swimming. I mean, there are more exercises than any one person could possibly ever want to do. Even then, a person doesn't need to actually burn 6,000 calories a week or go at a high intensity for all the time he's exercising. We have enough studies to know that HIIT is very beneficial and you can combine that with some strength training.

DrIsotope

I averaged 601kJ/hr this morning on a Z1 recovery ride. Last Friday was a little more spirited, 789kJ/hr.

It's not that difficult.

Leisesturm

My point isn't to collect exceptions to my point. I mean ... look at how far you people have to reach to find them ... seriously ... 200 watts for an hour? ... how many people with 50lbs. to lose are capable for sustaining ... hell attaining, 200 watts output? Rowing? I average 80 to 100 watts @30spm, and do intervals where I might hit 150W peaks. I challenge the average punter do do better than that. But come on, we are talking about using up excess calories on a daily basis, not post Strava KOM's. The 50lbs on your waist might be appear to be static avoirdupois but everyday, people are adding 1600 to 2000 and more (lots more) to the metabolic balance sheet and some of that is bound to wind up as 'static' avoirdupois on their stomach and backsides. It is a moving target that people are trying to treat like a fixed one. HIIT is great if you can. Those who can, don't seem to have a lot of understanding of how special their situation is.

Since you must also address the ongoing daily intake of calories, the best way to do that is through some kind of balanced food intake reduction. Not 'low carb', not 'vegan', not anything special, except a balanced reduction in food intake. Fairly drastic reduction at that. I know a couple of sedentary women that have ONE meal a day and are not skinny! Just one meal can provide sufficient calories to maintain weight. The main reason a Keto diet isn't sustainable long term is because of the geo-politics of agriculture. A meat/fat based diet is simply financially unsustainable for most Americans. In much of the world people pay rent by the year. And what they pay in a year is what an American pays in a month. And I'm not talking about Cambodia or Bangladesh.

Maybe in Western Europe you aren't going to pay $1200/yr. for rent, but you are NOT going to pay $2500 for a root canal. You don't HAVE to have a $30K car to get to work everyday. You can afford meat, butter, eggs, etc. to excess. Americans think they can, but every month they are going >$500 in debt on their credit cards to sustain what isn't even a Middle Class lifestyle anymore. Without even realizing it we bias our diets to the carby side of things because it is more financially sustainable to do so. Carbs are cheaper sources of nutrition. Period. Keto appeals to those who (think they can) afford it like many behaviors humans engage in. The Achilles heels of all these 'diets' being discussed is that by definition they are term limited. Once a specific goal of weight reduction or blood pressure level or blood sugar level ... once the 'goal' has been reached, the person subjected to the torture is only too happy to end the diet program and ... well you all read these forum posts just like I do. How many are on their second and third cycles of weight gain/loss? At the end of the day, prevention is always better than cure. Do not allow yourself to become morbidly obese, because getting it under control is way more difficult than it is being made out to be here. It's damn hard, and fairly expensive to do. But even more important is to realize that, like a recovered alcoholic, once you have come back from morbidly obese territory, the methods that brought about the weight loss must be normalized. You can never 'eat normally' again. That sounds awful but its all in the interpretation. I didn't have 50lbs. to lose but I do have an A1C that I'd like to get below 6 and keep it there. The way I eat and the exercise regimen that I have adopted have to be maintained for as long as I live. That's just the way it is.

Edit: Bonus weight loss and Super Saver tip: whatever you served yourself for dinner ... eat half of it, and eat the other half for lunch the next day!

livedarklions

I've learned quite a while ago that that which works for me probably won't work for someone else. This is true for everyone. You aren't the first person who has lost some weight or whatever who has decided that he has it all figured out. Unfortunately, the world is full of people just dying to tell fat people how to lose weight. I really couldn't do it until I learned to just ignore all the contradictory "this is so simple" nonsense and figure out for myself by trial and error what works for me.

DrIsotope

I could stand to lose 30lbs, and can sustain 200W for several hours, not just one. Being fatter doesn't make me weaker, it just makes me slower up hills.

I'm not providing an exception to the randomly chose "600kJ/hr" figure-- I'm saying that's right around my average. A typical day at endurance output (mixed Z1/Z2) will see 33-36kJ/mi, combined with an average pace of 17mph makes for 560-610kJ/hr.

Even at that, I'm not losing weight. I'm maintaining it, poorly at times, because I can top 4,000kcal a day several times a week. Eating is easier than cycling, that's for sure.

Marci

I WAS doing really well with my weight....then due to my disease Sarcoidosis moving into my bone (still better than the bone cancer or lung cancer they thought it might be) I had to go on Prednisone for a year and a half. Not only did I put on close to 50 lbs it moved my fat from my legs and hips to my stomach area. Its been almost a year I think since I weaned off it (still on Methotrexate for 1 more month) It did do what it was supposed to and put me into remission. But it is so hard to drop the pounds now when the hormones are all out of whack (side effect of pred supposed to start straightening up at the 1 year point) But I keep plugging at it.

I swim on most days I don't bike, now lap swimming is a serous way to use calories. 45 min was about 1200 cal. But the pred came with a price too, the joints are worse, and I had to take 3 weeks off in Dec to have a small skin cancer heal from my face-it did hardly a scar. But in 3 freaking weeks my shoulder went from doing laps to nope, nada, oh crap I can't put my arm up. It took 3 months to be diagnosed with a frozen shoulder, in which I was scared to move my shoulder since it felt like I was ripping stuff in it.
I still was in the pool and on the bike but careful and jogging in the water not laps. After a couple of months of PT I just started doing laps again, it is painful. But after a few laps the shoulder loosens up and it get easier. I can do about 20 30 minutes, but its nothing like I used to, and I have to mix it up a lot as the weak muscles get sore. But I will get there.
I do have to say the running helped my biking a lot. And I have seen a reduction in size a bit... very little. But I will keep on plugging away. But as we all know we walk a fine line of over use and under use... especially with my joints. I will make certain of one thing, my shoulder joints will be used daily as I never want to freeze up again!
Getting older sucks!! But the exercise makes it worth it, I swear it is an addiction. Gotta keep moving, to stop is to freeze up....

Doge

Huge response by others, I just read this OP. For those that are not active - yes, it is something and something beats nothing. For everyone else, No. Cycling hard does not help loose weight by itself vs walking or running. Eating fewer calories does. Building muscle does. Cycling for many increases appetite beyond calories burned if intense. A casual ride that does not stress your body may help lose weight, but often folks ride very hard, and end up eating a lot to recover.

You'd do better to run slowly in combination with weights and eating less.