Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…
02-27-24, 02:18 PM
#101
Senior Member
Vittoria Air-Liner Road Test | Bicycle Rolling Resistance
Again, the Vittoria testing.
Note the rolling resistance curves presented show that you lose fewer watts by inflating your tires to 100psi than at all the other lower pressures tested. So if hookless were to be counted as a performance road solution, then the system should have the ability to handle these pressures, plus a healthy safety margin.
Again, the Vittoria testing.
Note the rolling resistance curves presented show that you lose fewer watts by inflating your tires to 100psi than at all the other lower pressures tested. So if hookless were to be counted as a performance road solution, then the system should have the ability to handle these pressures, plus a healthy safety margin.
Fortunately some new testing methods have shown that if you put a rider on rock hard tires, their rolling resistance is going to go up even on velodrome parquet. Low enough pressures on first world roads are surprisingly low. Unfortunately for you, a fast bike is going to feel slow, because a bike that feels like a hitachi massager is wasting energy to produce that massaging vibration.
02-27-24, 02:27 PM
#102
Senior Member
You again reveal your complete lack of understanding of how tire pressure works. the BRR test is a drum test, which means they do not test the tires with a rider riding a bike. Now as it happens, the rider part is actually somewhat crucial to the whole bike riding experience so we can't just use non rider data.
Fortunately some new testing methods have shown that if you put a rider on rock hard tires, their rolling resistance is going to go up even on velodrome parquet. Low enough pressures on first world roads are surprisingly low. Unfortunately for you, a fast bike is going to feel slow, because a bike that feels like a hitachi massager is wasting energy to produce that massaging vibration.
Fortunately some new testing methods have shown that if you put a rider on rock hard tires, their rolling resistance is going to go up even on velodrome parquet. Low enough pressures on first world roads are surprisingly low. Unfortunately for you, a fast bike is going to feel slow, because a bike that feels like a hitachi massager is wasting energy to produce that massaging vibration.
Which test shows resistance going up with high pressure even on a velodrome? Curious to read this test. If this is true then it would be quite incredible.
Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 02:30 PM.
02-27-24, 03:32 PM
#103
Senior Member
Really? I thought BRR.com puts 40kg of weight on the wheel to simulate the rider's body weight? 70kg rider, 10kg bike, 80 kg total. Divide by two because the bike has two wheels. 40kg weight on each wheel. Seems like a reasonable test weight.
Which test shows resistance going up with high pressure even on a velodrome? Curious to read this test. If this is true then it would be quite incredible.
Which test shows resistance going up with high pressure even on a velodrome? Curious to read this test. If this is true then it would be quite incredible.
BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.
Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.
Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.
And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
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02-27-24, 04:06 PM
#104
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02-27-24, 04:17 PM
#105
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https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance
BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.
Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.
Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.
And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.
Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.
Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.
And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
02-27-24, 04:26 PM
#106
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https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance
BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.
Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.
Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.
And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.
Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.
Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.
And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
/pedantic biologist
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02-27-24, 04:55 PM
#107
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Maybe not MSRP, but they can regularly found at that price.
As a point of comparison, a set 44mm Light-Bicycle wheels with DT350 and a hooked bead with pillar spokes and brass spoke nipples runs $1335 with freight.
LB makes nice wheels, but the Zipps come with LBS support and a lifetime warranty.
As a point of comparison, a set 44mm Light-Bicycle wheels with DT350 and a hooked bead with pillar spokes and brass spoke nipples runs $1335 with freight.
LB makes nice wheels, but the Zipps come with LBS support and a lifetime warranty.
Anyways, a set of btlos 45mm wheels with premium level hooked 23mm internal and 29mm external rims(so similar to 303s), bitex312 hubs, Pilar Aero spokes, brass nipples, and no holes in the rim bed cost $717 and weigh 1473g. Lighter and less expensive, despite hooked. It's a 3.5year warranty and not lifetime, but I don't view that as worth the cost difference. And let's not claim the hubs are of measurable different quality.
Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?
02-27-24, 06:29 PM
#108
Senior Member
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance
To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.
A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.
Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.
A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.
Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
02-27-24, 06:48 PM
#109
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https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance
To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.
A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.
Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.
A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.
Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
02-27-24, 07:53 PM
#110
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https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance
To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.
A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.
Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
To summarize the study above, the fastest rolling road tire is pumped up to 110 psi on average-type pavement. On course (roughened) pavement, including hysteresis losses, the optimum pressure is just under 100psi. So if tubeless/hookless cannot accommodate this, then you are losing watts.
A lot of the argument here is based on words like 'comfort' and 'compliance' etc. I just finished up a 3 hour ride on gravel, including some downhill sections with roots and rocks on a bike with 23mm Conti GP4000 tires pumped up to 100psi on 15mm rims. Sure, the ride was bouncy at times, but so what? On the gravel, if you go fast enough, the ride smooths out, as you skim over the holes and the washboard.
Is everyone getting so sensitive and flabby that we really need 32mm tires for road riding?
02-28-24, 03:57 AM
#111
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Maybe they can be regulary found at that price, but a quick search didn't show that.
Anyways, a set of btlos 45mm wheels with premium level hooked 23mm internal and 29mm external rims(so similar to 303s), bitex312 hubs, Pilar Aero spokes, brass nipples, and no holes in the rim bed cost $717 and weigh 1473g. Lighter and less expensive, despite hooked. It's a 3.5year warranty and not lifetime, but I don't view that as worth the cost difference. And let's not claim the hubs are of measurable different quality.
Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?
Anyways, a set of btlos 45mm wheels with premium level hooked 23mm internal and 29mm external rims(so similar to 303s), bitex312 hubs, Pilar Aero spokes, brass nipples, and no holes in the rim bed cost $717 and weigh 1473g. Lighter and less expensive, despite hooked. It's a 3.5year warranty and not lifetime, but I don't view that as worth the cost difference. And let's not claim the hubs are of measurable different quality.
Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?
Before the 303S you couldn’t buy a new set of Zipp wheels at this price point
02-28-24, 05:23 AM
#112
Senior Member
Fortunately some new testing methods have shown that if you put a rider on rock hard tires, their rolling resistance is going to go up even on velodrome parquet. Low enough pressures on first world roads are surprisingly low. Unfortunately for you, a fast bike is going to feel slow, because a bike that feels like a hitachi massager is wasting energy to produce that massaging vibration.
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/part-4b...-and-impedance
BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.
Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.
Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.
And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
BRR uses solid weight. However a human is a flabby collection of liquids held together by cell walls which experiences vibrations in a very different manner than a piece of steel would.
Ie. too much vibration heats up tissues which directly off rolling.
Roller drum tests work well for ranking tires against each other but they're fairly useless when trying to find the optimal tire pressure.
And that's before we even begin broaching the subject of vibration fatigue. If you need to be in a shaky environment for extended periods, you're going to get tired.
According to this study, for a tire on coarse asphalt, rolling resistance decreases when pressure increases, up to 100psi. Above 100psi, the resistance starts to become worse again. So the optimal pressure for the lowest rolling resistance is 100psi.
Am I missing something? Hookless cannot safely reach 100psi, so according to the study that you provided, one will never be able to run the most optimal pressure on a hookless rim. That's terrible. What's going on? Why should anyone ever buy hookless then?
This study also didn't include testing on a velodrome surface. I'd be curious to read the study you were talking about that involved a velodrome surface.
02-28-24, 09:33 AM
#113
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Visited my local bike dealer recently. One of the 'big three'. Most of the higher end road and gravel options came hookless, with a small selection of 'approved' tire options. Of course these options were only sold through the dealer network, and they were all bloody expensive.
02-28-24, 09:35 AM
#114
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Gotcha, I’m usually in the 170-175# range so I have lots of room. Currently running 28s at 58f, 62r.
02-28-24, 09:42 AM
#115
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Bud, you just repeated my point as if its your point! Your initial comment was an attempt to compare the 303S and I(as well as another) pushed back on your comment and questioned how you make the claim when there is no comparison. Now here you are telling me the 303S cant be compared.
Good lord, the point flew way over your head on this.
Trakhak- Yes. That was my point. I'm also dubious about the claim that the reduced cost of manufacture is being passed on to the customer.
phrantic09- I bought Zipp 303S two years ago for $900 new. How is that not passing cost on?
Petehski in response to you- Is there an equivalent hooked version to compare pricing?
Me in response to you- What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on. When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel.
phrantic09- you then replied with an LB hooked wheelset that costs more than your wheels, as if that means anything.
Me in response to you- I then cited a BTLOS hooked wheelset that is lighter and costs less than you wheels, because if your example is meaningful then mine is too. To be clear, neither are meaningful when applied to your initial claim that cost savings were passed on due to the price of your Zipp 303S wheelset.
Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?
And now here we are- with you telling me the 303S cost cant be compared to a hooked ZIPP option, even though you started this entire exchange with the claim that lower cost was passed on with your wheelset because it is hookless.
Before the 303S you couldn’t buy a new set of Zipp wheels at this price point
Further, in the time between when the 302 DB was released and the 303S was released, the price of entry level carbon wheels(which the 303S is), was pushed down due to increased adoption and increased product competition. So when Zipp introduced a redesigned entry level carbon wheel, they priced it accordingly. Pricing it based on what the market will accept is entirely different from pricing it based on lower manufacturing costs. One is influenced by external factors and one is influenced by internal factors.
Ill throw you a bone- a Zipp product manager does claim hookless has reduced weight and price for Zipp's wheels.
How much? Who knows. Is it even true or is it just a cited reason when a significant % of price drops are actually due to other reasons? Who knows. Its a product manager's words. The industry is littered with comically BS performance and price claims from product managers. But we tend to believe what we want to believe, even when no actual evidence is provided.
02-28-24, 09:46 AM
#116
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I had time today to fully read the link you posted.
According to this study, for a tire on coarse asphalt, rolling resistance decreases when pressure increases, up to 100psi. Above 100psi, the resistance starts to become worse again. So the optimal pressure for the lowest rolling resistance is 100psi.
Am I missing something? Hookless cannot safely reach 100psi, so according to the study that you provided, one will never be able to run the most optimal pressure on a hookless rim. That's terrible. What's going on? Why should anyone ever buy hookless then?
This study also didn't include testing on a velodrome surface. I'd be curious to read the study you were talking about that involved a velodrome surface.
According to this study, for a tire on coarse asphalt, rolling resistance decreases when pressure increases, up to 100psi. Above 100psi, the resistance starts to become worse again. So the optimal pressure for the lowest rolling resistance is 100psi.
Am I missing something? Hookless cannot safely reach 100psi, so according to the study that you provided, one will never be able to run the most optimal pressure on a hookless rim. That's terrible. What's going on? Why should anyone ever buy hookless then?
This study also didn't include testing on a velodrome surface. I'd be curious to read the study you were talking about that involved a velodrome surface.
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02-28-24, 11:00 AM
#117
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People don't really seek out hookless rims as a feature, do they? I get that Zipp and Enve try to make it a selling point by claiming some minuscule weight savings or aero gain, but I don't know anyone who was like "gotta upgrade these hooked rims to hookless". Everyone I know on hookless rims either bought them without really understanding what they were buying, or they tolerate the hookless aspect because they liked the price, weight, dimensions, etc.
I own Zipp 303s. I purchased them for around $1000 a few years ago and they've been trouble free, I don't seem to have any problems finding a variety of compatible tires in road and gravel sizes and don't run tires narrower than 28mm or pressure above 65psi.
That said, I would've absolutely bought hooked rims if they were available in this price point with the same dimensions, warranty, weight, etc. When I was shopping, the hooked options either cost a lot more, had narrower dimensions, or came from online companies that seem a little risky. Zipp offers a lifetime warranty on these wheels and I purchased through a LBS who can assist with any warranty claims, both of which were compelling selling points for me.
I own Zipp 303s. I purchased them for around $1000 a few years ago and they've been trouble free, I don't seem to have any problems finding a variety of compatible tires in road and gravel sizes and don't run tires narrower than 28mm or pressure above 65psi.
That said, I would've absolutely bought hooked rims if they were available in this price point with the same dimensions, warranty, weight, etc. When I was shopping, the hooked options either cost a lot more, had narrower dimensions, or came from online companies that seem a little risky. Zipp offers a lifetime warranty on these wheels and I purchased through a LBS who can assist with any warranty claims, both of which were compelling selling points for me.
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02-28-24, 11:34 AM
#118
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<insert Picard facepalm gif>.
Bud, you just repeated my point as if its your point! Your initial comment was an attempt to compare the 303S and I(as well as another) pushed back on your comment and questioned how you make the claim when there is no comparison. Now here you are telling me the 303S cant be compared.
Good lord, the point flew way over your head on this.
Trakhak- Yes. That was my point. I'm also dubious about the claim that the reduced cost of manufacture is being passed on to the customer.
phrantic09- I bought Zipp 303S two years ago for $900 new. How is that not passing cost on?
Petehski in response to you- Is there an equivalent hooked version to compare pricing?
Me in response to you- What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on. When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel.
phrantic09- you then replied with an LB hooked wheelset that costs more than your wheels, as if that means anything.
Me in response to you- I then cited a BTLOS hooked wheelset that is lighter and costs less than you wheels, because if your example is meaningful then mine is too. To be clear, neither are meaningful when applied to your initial claim that cost savings were passed on due to the price of your Zipp 303S wheelset.
Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?
And now here we are- with you telling me the 303S cost cant be compared to a hooked ZIPP option, even though you started this entire exchange with the claim that lower cost was passed on with your wheelset because it is hookless.
Thats because ZIPP hadnt made a carbon rim disc wheel at the $1300 pricepoint before the 303S was released. The 302 DB wheelset, which is basically what the 303S replaced, had a $1500MSRP. The 302 DB rim profile was pretty dated when it was introduced in 2018 so when the 303S was released, it was a totally different rim profile design because the market required it.
Further, in the time between when the 302 DB was released and the 303S was released, the price of entry level carbon wheels(which the 303S is), was pushed down due to increased adoption and increased product competition. So when Zipp introduced a redesigned entry level carbon wheel, they priced it accordingly. Pricing it based on what the market will accept is entirely different from pricing it based on lower manufacturing costs. One is influenced by external factors and one is influenced by internal factors.
Ill throw you a bone- a Zipp product manager does claim hookless has reduced weight and price for Zipp's wheels.
How much? Who knows. Is it even true or is it just a cited reason when a significant % of price drops are actually due to other reasons? Who knows. Its a product manager's words. The industry is littered with comically BS performance and price claims from product managers. But we tend to believe what we want to believe, even when no actual evidence is provided.
Bud, you just repeated my point as if its your point! Your initial comment was an attempt to compare the 303S and I(as well as another) pushed back on your comment and questioned how you make the claim when there is no comparison. Now here you are telling me the 303S cant be compared.
Good lord, the point flew way over your head on this.
Trakhak- Yes. That was my point. I'm also dubious about the claim that the reduced cost of manufacture is being passed on to the customer.
phrantic09- I bought Zipp 303S two years ago for $900 new. How is that not passing cost on?
Petehski in response to you- Is there an equivalent hooked version to compare pricing?
Me in response to you- What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on. When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel.
phrantic09- you then replied with an LB hooked wheelset that costs more than your wheels, as if that means anything.
Me in response to you- I then cited a BTLOS hooked wheelset that is lighter and costs less than you wheels, because if your example is meaningful then mine is too. To be clear, neither are meaningful when applied to your initial claim that cost savings were passed on due to the price of your Zipp 303S wheelset.
Regardless of all the above from you and me, you still haven't shown what you claimed. You claimed cost savings were passed on to you because you bought some hookless wheels a few years ago for 30% off msrp, even though there was no hooked wheel to compare that to.
Any desire to actually address that, or are we just ignoring it and moving on?
And now here we are- with you telling me the 303S cost cant be compared to a hooked ZIPP option, even though you started this entire exchange with the claim that lower cost was passed on with your wheelset because it is hookless.
Thats because ZIPP hadnt made a carbon rim disc wheel at the $1300 pricepoint before the 303S was released. The 302 DB wheelset, which is basically what the 303S replaced, had a $1500MSRP. The 302 DB rim profile was pretty dated when it was introduced in 2018 so when the 303S was released, it was a totally different rim profile design because the market required it.
Further, in the time between when the 302 DB was released and the 303S was released, the price of entry level carbon wheels(which the 303S is), was pushed down due to increased adoption and increased product competition. So when Zipp introduced a redesigned entry level carbon wheel, they priced it accordingly. Pricing it based on what the market will accept is entirely different from pricing it based on lower manufacturing costs. One is influenced by external factors and one is influenced by internal factors.
Ill throw you a bone- a Zipp product manager does claim hookless has reduced weight and price for Zipp's wheels.
How much? Who knows. Is it even true or is it just a cited reason when a significant % of price drops are actually due to other reasons? Who knows. Its a product manager's words. The industry is littered with comically BS performance and price claims from product managers. But we tend to believe what we want to believe, even when no actual evidence is provided.
It’s just silly to think hookless is some big conspiracy to increase margins while not caring about safety or that it is this big confusing mess.
A simple google search gives you everything you need to know about compatibility and they are not hard to maintain. Pump less than 73 PSI, ride your bike, top off sealant from time to time.
02-28-24, 11:45 AM
#119
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People don't really seek out hookless rims as a feature, do they? I get that Zipp and Enve try to make it a selling point by claiming some minuscule weight savings or aero gain, but I don't know anyone who was like "gotta upgrade these hooked rims to hookless". Everyone I know on hookless rims either bought them without really understanding what they were buying, or they tolerate the hookless aspect because they liked the price, weight, dimensions, etc.
I own Zipp 303s. I purchased them for around $1000 a few years ago and they've been trouble free, I don't seem to have any problems finding a variety of compatible tires in road and gravel sizes and don't run tires narrower than 28mm or pressure above 65psi.
That said, I would've absolutely bought hooked rims if they were available in this price point with the same dimensions, warranty, weight, etc. When I was shopping, the hooked options either cost a lot more, had narrower dimensions, or came from online companies that seem a little risky. Zipp offers a lifetime warranty on these wheels and I purchased through a LBS who can assist with any warranty claims, both of which were compelling selling points for me.
I own Zipp 303s. I purchased them for around $1000 a few years ago and they've been trouble free, I don't seem to have any problems finding a variety of compatible tires in road and gravel sizes and don't run tires narrower than 28mm or pressure above 65psi.
That said, I would've absolutely bought hooked rims if they were available in this price point with the same dimensions, warranty, weight, etc. When I was shopping, the hooked options either cost a lot more, had narrower dimensions, or came from online companies that seem a little risky. Zipp offers a lifetime warranty on these wheels and I purchased through a LBS who can assist with any warranty claims, both of which were compelling selling points for me.
The number one thing I will look for in my next wheelset is internal and external width as well as depth.
I won’t buy hookless from some unknown, but would happily buy Zipp, Enve or the like. Most likely the next set of wheels I buy will be the Reserve 52/63 which have a hook.
02-28-24, 12:04 PM
#120
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I don’t see it as a feature, but I also don’t see it as the big bogeyman people ITT are making it out to be.
The number one thing I will look for in my next wheelset is internal and external width as well as depth.
I won’t buy hookless from some unknown, but would happily buy Zipp, Enve or the like. Most likely the next set of wheels I buy will be the Reserve 52/63 which have a hook.
The number one thing I will look for in my next wheelset is internal and external width as well as depth.
I won’t buy hookless from some unknown, but would happily buy Zipp, Enve or the like. Most likely the next set of wheels I buy will be the Reserve 52/63 which have a hook.
Also the use here should be considered. I know several people who bought 303 Firecrest (25mm ID hookless) and exclusively use them for road riding with 28mm at/near the max PSI. I probably would've gone with a hooked rim option if I were them. 25mm ID hookless seems fine for larger tire sizes and lower pressures though.
02-28-24, 12:45 PM
#121
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I think we're saying the same thing. At $1800 you've got a few options for both hooked and hookless. There are far less options for hooked rims at the lower price point where the 303S lives.
Also the use here should be considered. I know several people who bought 303 Firecrest (25mm ID hookless) and exclusively use them for road riding with 28mm at/near the max PSI. I probably would've gone with a hooked rim option if I were them. 25mm ID hookless seems fine for larger tire sizes and lower pressures though.
Also the use here should be considered. I know several people who bought 303 Firecrest (25mm ID hookless) and exclusively use them for road riding with 28mm at/near the max PSI. I probably would've gone with a hooked rim option if I were them. 25mm ID hookless seems fine for larger tire sizes and lower pressures though.
02-28-24, 12:48 PM
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Relevant to the original topic. Vittoria has released a statement saying that Thomas De Gant hit a rock which caused catastrophic rim damage. The crash had nothing to do with hookless rims.
Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.
Vittoria statement
Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.
Vittoria statement
02-28-24, 01:02 PM
#123
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Relevant to the original topic. Vittoria has released a statement saying that Thomas De Gant hit a rock which caused catastrophic rim damage. The crash had nothing to do with hookless rims.
Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.
Vittoria statement
Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.
Vittoria statement
I saw the CPA (pro riders union) is now considering lobbying for a ban on hookless rims. I say, right on! I've done the bike failure over the bars. NOt tires but life changing and not ins a good way. Also jammed a tire in the seatstays. Better than Gendt's but still, multiple broken bones and an acre of road rash. The technology is out there to stop tires coming off. Pro riders should insist.
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02-28-24, 01:02 PM
#124
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Relevant to the original topic. Vittoria has released a statement saying that Thomas De Gant hit a rock which caused catastrophic rim damage. The crash had nothing to do with hookless rims.
Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.
Vittoria statement
Vittoria also notes that they’ve extensively tested the 28mm Corsa Pro on Zipp’s 25mm ID hookless rims and there are no compatibility issues.
Vittoria statement
02-28-24, 01:27 PM
#125
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I saw that. Cringed. So if as a rider I hit a rock (in pelotons, stuff like that happens. Rocks. WBs don't always get pointed out. De Gendt still had a wheel that passed through he fork with a rim round enough to ride. Good! He was (I believe) still upright. Then his tire came off! And part of the tire system jammed in the fork! The nightmare over the bars crash. Faceplant.
I saw the CPA (pro riders union) is now considering lobbying for a ban on hookless rims. I say, right on! I've done the bike failure over the bars. NOt tires but life changing and not ins a good way. Also jammed a tire in the seatstays. Better than Gendt's but still, multiple broken bones and an acre of road rash. The technology is out there to stop tires coming off. Pro riders should insist.
I saw the CPA (pro riders union) is now considering lobbying for a ban on hookless rims. I say, right on! I've done the bike failure over the bars. NOt tires but life changing and not ins a good way. Also jammed a tire in the seatstays. Better than Gendt's but still, multiple broken bones and an acre of road rash. The technology is out there to stop tires coming off. Pro riders should insist.