The need for speed (taller gears)
#1
Very Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Always on the Run
Posts: 1,211
Bikes: Giant Quasar & Fuji Roubaix
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked 343 Times
in
244 Posts
The need for speed (taller gears)
Okay, I'm finding the current gearing on my old Giant RB is just not tall enough. The larger chain ring is 52T and a 14T on a 6spd cassette. I really would like to step the 14T up to at least a 12T but preferably an 11T. Why am I having such a tough time trying to find that gear? Is it not doable? We're talking Shimano here. Will an 11T from an old MTB cassette fit the hub? Or does it have to come off a road bike due to hub differences? Am I just not looking in the right places? Are we having fun yet?
Thank you in advance for any sharing of knowledge,
Thank you in advance for any sharing of knowledge,
#2
Really Old Senior Member
Likely you have a Free Wheel, not a cassette.
IF a cassette, likely it's a Uniglide and uses a threaded smallest cog.
Freewheel or Cassette?
IF a cassette, likely it's a Uniglide and uses a threaded smallest cog.
Freewheel or Cassette?
Likes For Bill Kapaun:
#3
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,525
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4357 Post(s)
Liked 3,994 Times
in
2,665 Posts
IRD does a 13-24 so that sort of corncob set up that was popular for racing. You can apparently also now build your own freewheel again which was something they did back in the day. However if not running a freewheel as Bill said you will probably have a uniglide cassette and those aren't in existence anymore but you might be able to swap out the free hub body to a hyper glide (I did that once and the hub was used and worked). Your frame might not be spaced right and if steel you can possibly cold set it but if not you really can't.
Get some info on the bike and we can help you out more. If the bike is steel and you are running friction shifters you can respace the frame get a new rear wheel and run more gears. If you space out a steel frame to 130mm you can easily get a road wheel with a hyperglide free hub and you could run 10 speed frictionally without a ton of problem and 9 and below with even less issues. Your derailleur might be able to handle it just fine. I am running an 7 speed RD with a 9 speed indexed shifter.
Get some info on the bike and we can help you out more. If the bike is steel and you are running friction shifters you can respace the frame get a new rear wheel and run more gears. If you space out a steel frame to 130mm you can easily get a road wheel with a hyperglide free hub and you could run 10 speed frictionally without a ton of problem and 9 and below with even less issues. Your derailleur might be able to handle it just fine. I am running an 7 speed RD with a 9 speed indexed shifter.
#5
aka: Dr. Cannondale
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,734
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2155 Post(s)
Liked 3,404 Times
in
1,205 Posts
If a Shimano UG freewheel (likely) you can go down to a 13 tooth small cog pretty easily. I have some, and so does @PastorBobinNH.
In fact, there are freewheels with 12 tooth small cogs, for example Sachs, but all the ones I have seen are 7 speed and may require you to slightly lengthen your rear axle on the drive side by a mm or two.
If a freehub (possible) with standard diameter UG threading end, then a 13 is the smallest you can go. I have those.
If a Dura Ace freehub with the smaller UG threaded end, you can go to a 12 tooth. I have those.
To go to an 11 tooth small cog, you need a later 130OLD HG style freehub, none of which can be installed on a pre-7 speed Shimano hub.
You may find it easier to purchase a larger chain ring- like a 56 or larger.
In fact, there are freewheels with 12 tooth small cogs, for example Sachs, but all the ones I have seen are 7 speed and may require you to slightly lengthen your rear axle on the drive side by a mm or two.
If a freehub (possible) with standard diameter UG threading end, then a 13 is the smallest you can go. I have those.
If a Dura Ace freehub with the smaller UG threaded end, you can go to a 12 tooth. I have those.
To go to an 11 tooth small cog, you need a later 130OLD HG style freehub, none of which can be installed on a pre-7 speed Shimano hub.
You may find it easier to purchase a larger chain ring- like a 56 or larger.
__________________
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
#6
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26424 Post(s)
Liked 10,380 Times
in
7,208 Posts
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18378 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Verify Freewheel vs Cassette:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html
DNP Epoch makes a 11T, 7-Speed Freewheel.
https://www.amazon.com/DNP-Epoch-Fre.../dp/B007A8RPUS
The one I had was slightly wider than the average 7 speed freewheel, although that might have been changed. But, in many cases you can just flip around a few spacers on the rear hub and redish the wheel to make it work.
Friction Shifting, of course, is easier to deal with than indexed shifting if you change the number of sprockets.
One issue that I had with the DNP Epoch is that it skipped a number of sprockets.
11-13-15-18-21-24-28.
In particular, the 12T and 14T would have been very nice. Anyway, I found the gaps in the freewheel were unacceptable, but that led me down a rabbit hole of changing from a freewheel to a cassette, and trying to get higher gearing and fewer gaps in the cassette. And, thus more speeds... 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s, & 11s (I seem to have skipped 10s for various reasons).
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html
DNP Epoch makes a 11T, 7-Speed Freewheel.
https://www.amazon.com/DNP-Epoch-Fre.../dp/B007A8RPUS
The one I had was slightly wider than the average 7 speed freewheel, although that might have been changed. But, in many cases you can just flip around a few spacers on the rear hub and redish the wheel to make it work.
Friction Shifting, of course, is easier to deal with than indexed shifting if you change the number of sprockets.
One issue that I had with the DNP Epoch is that it skipped a number of sprockets.
11-13-15-18-21-24-28.
In particular, the 12T and 14T would have been very nice. Anyway, I found the gaps in the freewheel were unacceptable, but that led me down a rabbit hole of changing from a freewheel to a cassette, and trying to get higher gearing and fewer gaps in the cassette. And, thus more speeds... 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s, & 11s (I seem to have skipped 10s for various reasons).
#9
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,790
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3590 Post(s)
Liked 3,400 Times
in
1,934 Posts
As others have noted, your hub may limit the smallest cog size on the rear cluster. Depending on make/model of your crank, larger chainrings may be available to provide higher gearing.
Likes For JohnDThompson:
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
The real question is "how fast can you go?" Are you strong enough to turn an 11x52 or even a 12x52 effectively? For all but the strongest riders or those who insist on pedaling down hills, an 11T cog is wasted. You ain't Tony Martin (to paraphrase a famous movie).
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,374
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2483 Post(s)
Liked 2,955 Times
in
1,678 Posts
That said, there are some powerful riders out there who really can turn over a big gear at impressive speed, although lighter riders tend to be able to drop them on climbs.
Last edited by Trakhak; 11-24-19 at 10:00 AM.
Likes For Trakhak:
#12
Very Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Always on the Run
Posts: 1,211
Bikes: Giant Quasar & Fuji Roubaix
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked 343 Times
in
244 Posts
Right now I'm finding that I'm always in high gear and it doesn't feel high enough. I keep looking to shift up and then glancing down to see I'm already in the highest gear on the bike. I guess I'm just used to riding my MTB which with all the gear on it weighs in at close to 60# and this Giant feels super light to me. Thanks for your input.
#13
Very Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Always on the Run
Posts: 1,211
Bikes: Giant Quasar & Fuji Roubaix
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked 343 Times
in
244 Posts
IRD does a 13-24 so that sort of corncob set up that was popular for racing. You can apparently also now build your own freewheel again which was something they did back in the day. However if not running a freewheel as Bill said you will probably have a uniglide cassette and those aren't in existence anymore but you might be able to swap out the free hub body to a hyper glide (I did that once and the hub was used and worked). Your frame might not be spaced right and if steel you can possibly cold set it but if not you really can't.
Get some info on the bike and we can help you out more. If the bike is steel and you are running friction shifters you can respace the frame get a new rear wheel and run more gears. If you space out a steel frame to 130mm you can easily get a road wheel with a hyperglide free hub and you could run 10 speed frictionally without a ton of problem and 9 and below with even less issues. Your derailleur might be able to handle it just fine. I am running an 7 speed RD with a 9 speed indexed shifter.
Get some info on the bike and we can help you out more. If the bike is steel and you are running friction shifters you can respace the frame get a new rear wheel and run more gears. If you space out a steel frame to 130mm you can easily get a road wheel with a hyperglide free hub and you could run 10 speed frictionally without a ton of problem and 9 and below with even less issues. Your derailleur might be able to handle it just fine. I am running an 7 speed RD with a 9 speed indexed shifter.
Last edited by Bigbus; 11-24-19 at 10:53 AM.
#14
Very Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Always on the Run
Posts: 1,211
Bikes: Giant Quasar & Fuji Roubaix
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked 343 Times
in
244 Posts
Some really good information in this thread and even though that 52T chainring looks huge. to me, I;m thinking now that it might be easier to find a larger one rather than mess with the rear gearing. By keeping the 36T up front I won't lose my current low range either. Sounds like a good fix for me if the front DR can handle the difference in gear size without too much adjusting or modifying. Thanks for all the good input.
#15
Generally bewildered
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 3,037
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1152 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
251 Posts
For me, now, I worry about getting lower gears. I remember when I could run that corncob and go up hills no problem. Sigh.
#16
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 21,843
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1173 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
612 Posts
Right now I'm finding that I'm always in high gear and it doesn't feel high enough. I keep looking to shift up and then glancing down to see I'm already in the highest gear on the bike. I guess I'm just used to riding my MTB which with all the gear on it weighs in at close to 60# and this Giant feels super light to me. Thanks for your input.
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.
FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.
FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Likes For Homebrew01:
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
Some really good information in this thread and even though that 52T chainring looks huge. to me, I;m thinking now that it might be easier to find a larger one rather than mess with the rear gearing. By keeping the 36T up front I won't lose my current low range either. Sounds like a good fix for me if the front DR can handle the difference in gear size without too much adjusting or modifying. Thanks for all the good input.
Example. You currently have a 52 x 14 high gear which is 98.0" with 700 x 25 tires. Changing to a 54 chainring raises that high gear to 101.8" and a 56 chainring raises it to 105.5" whereas getting a 13 teeth rear cog with the existing 52 chainring gives a new high of 105.5" which is the same as you'd get with a 56 x 14. A 52 x 12 gives a high of 114.3" and a 11 x 52 gives you a high of 124.7". Have you given any thought to getting a new rear wheel with a freehub and a cassette?
Cheers
Likes For Miele Man:
#18
Really Old Senior Member
When I got my 1st speedometer, it became obvious I was slightly faster in the next lower gear. It was only .1-.2 MPH, but my stamina was "miles" better.
Air drag increases disproportionately with speed, so the faster you go, the more energy you waste.
Tuck in and make yourself "aero" on the downhills and save your energy for the uphills.
You'll get to "point B" sooner.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18378 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
12T Corncobs are available on E-Bay.
11T DNP Epoch is readily available (with the caveats above).
There are quite a few choices.
Think of gearing as a percent change. So, going from 13T to 12T = about 8% change.
13T to 11T = about a 17% change.
On the other end, 52T x 1.08 = 56T (equivalent of 13 to 12)
52T x 1.17 = 60T. (equivalent of 13 to 11).
And you get into mighty large chainrings very quickly.
Going from say 52T to 54T is only a 4% change, or half what you would get by dropping a single gear in the back.
You also have to start considering front and rear derailleur capacity, and the small front sprocket as you start going bigger up front. With some luck, it should still be able to handle it, but depending on the ultimate choice of components, it can be tight.
11T DNP Epoch is readily available (with the caveats above).
There are quite a few choices.
Think of gearing as a percent change. So, going from 13T to 12T = about 8% change.
13T to 11T = about a 17% change.
On the other end, 52T x 1.08 = 56T (equivalent of 13 to 12)
52T x 1.17 = 60T. (equivalent of 13 to 11).
And you get into mighty large chainrings very quickly.
Going from say 52T to 54T is only a 4% change, or half what you would get by dropping a single gear in the back.
You also have to start considering front and rear derailleur capacity, and the small front sprocket as you start going bigger up front. With some luck, it should still be able to handle it, but depending on the ultimate choice of components, it can be tight.
Likes For CliffordK:
#20
Very Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Always on the Run
Posts: 1,211
Bikes: Giant Quasar & Fuji Roubaix
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked 343 Times
in
244 Posts
With regard to learning to pedal faster in a lower gear--You can't teach an old dog new tricks! I'm pushing 70years and can still do 240 situps, bench press 160X9 and ride 10+ miles/day. I burn out really fast when I try speed pedaling whereas when I'm climbing a hill and working the pedals hard, I never seem to reach bottom. Just me. But with that considered, higher gearing just makes sense. I have a 13T off an old MTB so when the weather turns nicer I'll see if I can swap it out with the 14T currently on it and go from there. Love it when you guys do all the math for me...
#21
Generally bewildered
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 3,037
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1152 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
251 Posts
With regard to learning to pedal faster in a lower gear--You can't teach an old dog new tricks! I'm pushing 70years and can still do 240 situps, bench press 160X9 and ride 10+ miles/day. I burn out really fast when I try speed pedaling whereas when I'm climbing a hill and working the pedals hard, I never seem to reach bottom. Just me. But with that considered, higher gearing just makes sense. I have a 13T off an old MTB so when the weather turns nicer I'll see if I can swap it out with the 14T currently on it and go from there. Love it when you guys do all the math for me...
Likes For WizardOfBoz:
#22
Really Old Senior Member
With regard to learning to pedal faster in a lower gear--You can't teach an old dog new tricks! I'm pushing 70years and can still do 240 situps, bench press 160X9 and ride 10+ miles/day. I burn out really fast when I try speed pedaling whereas when I'm climbing a hill and working the pedals hard, I never seem to reach bottom. Just me. But with that considered, higher gearing just makes sense. I have a 13T off an old MTB so when the weather turns nicer I'll see if I can swap it out with the 14T currently on it and go from there. Love it when you guys do all the math for me...
How much OVER 10 miles/day do you ride? If not much, you're basically doing a quick workout, since you must be doing 20-30 MPH. For you, that probably works.
Try riding 30-40 miles/day by mashing.
Nobody knows what your ACTUAL cadence is. OR if you have a double or triple up front and YOU don't seem that willing to provide that info.
What is the cadence you use and what cadence do you call "Speed Pedaling"? Maybe something in between will be the best of both worlds.
That's a problem when you only have a 6 speed on the back. Your steps between gears is too large to be most efficient. IF you had a cog between your "mashing" & "speed pedaling", you may be in a happy place?
Keep in mind, if you go to a smaller smallest cog, you widen the steps BETWEEN gears and may find you lack a gear you really used a lot more than you thought on the non downhill portions of your ride.
That's why my 2 bikes are 3X9 with close spaced cassettes. 12-27 on one and 13-25 on the other.
I simply have a better chance of having a "near perfect" gear a greater % of the time.
Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 11-24-19 at 03:49 PM.
Likes For Bill Kapaun:
#23
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26424 Post(s)
Liked 10,380 Times
in
7,208 Posts
...
...there was a Shimano 56 tooth chain ring over at the co-op here about a month ago, in the box of rings. I looked at it and smiled. If it's still there next time I visit, I'll grab it for you. Usually they sell chain rings there for five bucks or less.
...there was a Shimano 56 tooth chain ring over at the co-op here about a month ago, in the box of rings. I looked at it and smiled. If it's still there next time I visit, I'll grab it for you. Usually they sell chain rings there for five bucks or less.
Likes For 3alarmer:
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
We could help a lot more if we knew what you have on that rear wheel ie a freewheel, a freehub, a freehub with Old Uniglide cogs where the high cog screws on. Also your current cadence and front setup. I think from your post that you have a double chainring with 42 and 52 rings.
Btw, some Shimano freehubs were a transitional typed having both external threads for a Screw on Uniglide cog and internal threads for a screw on Hyperglide cassette lockring. What freehub do you have? that is what groupset is it from?
Cheers
Btw, some Shimano freehubs were a transitional typed having both external threads for a Screw on Uniglide cog and internal threads for a screw on Hyperglide cassette lockring. What freehub do you have? that is what groupset is it from?
Cheers