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Racing on aero road bike? Making a real difference?

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Racing on aero road bike? Making a real difference?

Old 02-22-16, 06:56 PM
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grwoolf
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Racing on aero road bike? Making a real difference?

I'm shopping for a new frame and was thinking Tarmac (to replace my current Tarmac, which has been great). I ended up test riding a new Madone back to back with a new Tarmac and the Madone was really good. Trek claims 19 watts of savings at 40kph (and much more at higher speed/yaw), which has me really thinking about it. I've reviewed the wind tunnel "marketing" data and it sounds too good to be true.

When I'm racing, I usually spend a lot of time in the wind in breaks, chasing, or going for long primes, so I'd be very interested in buying some speed if it's real. It's a pricey frame, but within my budget and much cheaper than the new Venge.

For those that are racing with aero road bikes, do you think you are seeing those kind of gains? If anyone has specific experience with the new Madone, I'd love to hear that as well.
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Old 02-22-16, 07:13 PM
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OMG YES. I just did my first race on my 2016 Scott Foil.
It's also super stiff so it reacts so beautifully. So, I'm sold on aero bikes.

ETA: I noticed a 2mph improvement at the top end of Z2.
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Old 02-22-16, 07:42 PM
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Sorry, I don't buy 2 mph added to top of Z2. Not really possible to make that determination in the real world (i.e. not on an indoor track), and far outstrips the claims of the manufacturer.

There's no doubt an aero bike IS faster, slightly. So they're interesting for sure. I'd like to try one out. Mostly it's a question of ride and handling for me. Can't help you there.
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Old 02-22-16, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby
Sorry, I don't buy 2 mph added to top of Z2. ..
Some of that is based on how fast your are going to start with. Improving 30-32 is pretty hard. @canuckbelle would have to tell us the two speeds.

FWIW our team is a mix of Venge and Tarmac. My son has both, fully tricked out (Di2 and DA and Doge stuff) - same geometry. His favorite to ride and race is the Tarmac, but for Merckx TTs - Venge.
We GUESS the Venge vs Tarmac @ 28-29mph is good for 10-15 sec in a 30 min TT. We have a bunch of riders on both so that guess is an educated one.
Junior teammate Brandon lapped the P12 men's field Sunday on a Tarmac. Brandon also has / had a Venge.
Then there is Sagan winning the WC - Tarmac.

A bar like the Ritchey Solo Stream on a Tarmac may be as aero as a Venge with round bars (not that anyone would do that).

Last edited by Doge; 02-22-16 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 02-22-16, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby
Sorry, I don't buy 2 mph added to top of Z2. Not really possible to make that determination in the real world (i.e. not on an indoor track), and far outstrips the claims of the manufacturer.

There's no doubt an aero bike IS faster, slightly. So they're interesting for sure. I'd like to try one out. Mostly it's a question of ride and handling for me. Can't help you there.
When you're comparing it to a bike that doesn't have race geometry? Yeah...buy it.
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Old 02-22-16, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
When you're comparing it to a bike that doesn't have race geometry? Yeah...buy it.
OP was comparing a Tarmac to other race aero frame - like a Madone.
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Old 02-22-16, 07:58 PM
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*shrug* Sorry for being wrong on the internet.
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Old 02-22-16, 07:59 PM
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I dunno, I want an aero road bike, but I already have a road bike, plus there's stuff like having to add in-line adjusters or loosen pinch bolts to change wheel widths with some of the proprietary brakes, and it starts to seem like a lot of work.
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Old 02-22-16, 08:08 PM
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It takes me ~310 watts to maintain ~40k on a road bike. If you believe the marketing, I could be doing the same speed @ ~290 watts, or I could go faster at the same wattage. 19 watts is good for almost .5mph at that speed. That's significant in my book if the 19 watt number is real. Even if it's only 10-15 watts, I'm probably in.

grolby - I test road a venge a couple years ago and I didn't care for it, roads are too rough here in texas. The Madone is a totally different deal. I took it on an extended test ride with my wheels on it, including a long stretch on a really broken "bottle-throwing" chip sealed road road and it was planted and controlled, totally different than the venge. I didn't have an opportunity to do any fast/technical descents, but did some crit-speed cornering and it felt good. I'm a big specialized fan and I might still give a slight ride edge to the Tarmac, but the Madone felt really good.
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Old 02-22-16, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
*shrug* Sorry for being wrong on the internet.
I don't know what you were riding before. But I assumed it would be a typical road bike. I'm not trying to look smart, here. It's only that 2 mph is a HUGE difference in sustained speed no matter what you're comparing to.
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Old 02-22-16, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
Some of that is based on how fast your are going to start with. Improving 30-32 is pretty hard. @canuckbelle would have to tell us the two speeds.

FWIW our team is a mix of Venge and Tarmac. My son has both, fully tricked out (Di2 and DA and Doge stuff) - same geometry. His favorite to ride and race is the Tarmac, but for Merckx TTs - Venge.
We GUESS the Venge vs Tarmac @ 28-29mph is good for 10-15 sec in a 30 min TT. We have a bunch of riders on both so that guess is an educated one.
Junior teammate Brandon lapped the P12 men's field Sunday on a Tarmac. Brandon also has / had a Venge.
Then there is Sagan winning the WC - Tarmac.

A bar like the Ritchey Solo Stream on a Tarmac may be as aero as a Venge with round bars (not that anyone would do that).
Thanks, those are good data points. Are they riding the Vias or the old Venge?

I struggle to believe the numbers they put in the marketing because you see so many guys (who have the choice) still choosing not to ride the aero bikes.
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Old 02-22-16, 08:20 PM
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There is so little difference between performance in top of the line frames that it really comes down to what geometry you fit best on and what sort of steering behavior you prefer. I happen to love my Tarmac and Sagan managed to win the WC on one last year, but I'll bet you if Sagan were on a Madone he still would have won. The Madone doesn't seem to be slowing Cancellara down at all either.
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Old 02-22-16, 08:27 PM
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I've got a venge and dig it. I don't find it uncomfortable and have used it on some pretty bad terrain. I've also got a non aero bike (or two) and have used them extensively. I can't really say I noticed a difference in speed vs effort between the two and I've only won races on the non-aero bike. I do have a new Tarmac frame that is sitting in a box in the garage that I haven't built since I am quite content with the Venge.
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Old 02-22-16, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by grwoolf
Thanks, those are good data points. Are they riding the Vias or the old Venge?

I struggle to believe the numbers they put in the marketing because you see so many guys (who have the choice) still choosing not to ride the aero bikes.
The "old" 2015 Venge just before the re-design.

Coach has a Look 795 - great bike.
Junior will likely have a Trek for a few summer races - Emonda, not Madone
Team USA bikes are round tube Felts.

I would think an aero bike for shorter races is a great choice. I think the ride becomes a much bigger deal on the rougher roads and longer rides.

Last edited by Doge; 02-22-16 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 02-22-16, 09:55 PM
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Somewhere we recently discussed aero handlebars.

The upshot was that:
~80% of aero drag comes from the rider, leaving 20% for the bike.

From that discussion, and other reading, of the drag from the bike:
- both aero handlebars and aero wheels are significant areas to optimize/minimize drag
- Other things, like like aero seat posts and lowered seat stays, are comparatively small effects.

Hence, putting aero bars on a tarmac, along with aero wheels, gets a lot of the benefits of aero bikes.

The other thing about aero bikes is that they typically have an aggressive position/short stack height, which, for a lot of race geometries, can also be replicated with stems.
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Old 02-23-16, 05:08 AM
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I went from a 2008 Ridley Noah (non aero) to a 2011 Scott Foil. Using the exact same wheels, handlebars, helmet and clothing I found a savings of around 10w or so on flat terrain.
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Old 02-23-16, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by hack
I've got a venge and dig it. I don't find it uncomfortable and have used it on some pretty bad terrain. I've also got a non aero bike (or two) and have used them extensively. I can't really say I noticed a difference in speed vs effort between the two and I've only won races on the non-aero bike. I do have a new Tarmac frame that is sitting in a box in the garage that I haven't built since I am quite content with the Venge.
good to hear , i just bought a venge over tarmac. i dont have the powerSW$G like sagan or b.mcnulty doe
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Old 02-23-16, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rapwithtom
Somewhere we recently discussed aero handlebars.

The upshot was that:
~80% of aero drag comes from the rider, leaving 20% for the bike.

From that discussion, and other reading, of the drag from the bike:
- both aero handlebars and aero wheels are significant areas to optimize/minimize drag
- Other things, like like aero seat posts and lowered seat stays, are comparatively small effects.


Hence, putting aero bars on a tarmac, along with aero wheels, gets a lot of the benefits of aero bikes.
This was my thought. When Trek came out with the aero Madone a lot of the claimed savings for the bike came just from the aero bar, sort of like Specialized saying 5 minutes from their whatever bike. Aero bars don't sail, though, like wheels do, so that savings won't multiply in serious crosswinds. I'm guessing that aero frames probably sail a bit. By sailing I'm talking about optimal situations like a strong cross-tailwind. I love tall wheels in those situations.

Another thought is how tall is your frame? I have about a 10 cm head tube, and some of it is obscured because my stem drops 3 cm from horizontal (so maybe 8 cm head tube exposed below bar?). Making 8 cm of vertical head tube aero-ish doesn't seem to make much sense. Making 20 cm of head tube on a taller frame, probably makes more sense.

A number of my teammates have the Madone. It's just a cool looking bike, and I'm a zero Trek fan. The bikes are reportedly good for long rides, short rides, etc. Comfy and responsive. I have no idea because they're all too tall for me to pedal around at all.

When I asked a bike tech guy/friend with extensive low speed wind tunnel experience about aero frames, he grinned. He said that, okay, fine, in a full on sprint it might be worth half a kph, maybe a kph. It put things in perspective. Wheels, for sure there's a difference, especially in optimal conditions (and basically zero benefit in a perfect headwind). But 1 mph is 1.5 feet per second, and if you're sprinting for 10 seconds (typical for me), that's 15 feet. Seeing as I've won and lost races by a foot or less, 15 feet for me could be the difference between winning and maybe 5th-10th. Even half that, 7.5 feet for a short sprint, that's significant. Long sprints are 20 seconds, and now you're talking some serious distance deltas.

Finally, aero stuff is always aero. Even if it's just worth 10w at break speeds, it's 10w you don't have to put down. Or 10w you can invest in speed.

Of course this makes me want to get the Bontrager aero bars, if they make a 120/80 x 38 cm, and the Bontrager aero road helmet. And a skinsuit. And...
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Old 02-23-16, 08:36 AM
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The cool thing about buying all that aero bling is it has the added benefit of making your wallet aero
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Old 02-23-16, 09:10 AM
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As has already been said by others, an aero handlebar and aero wheels are going to make far more difference than an aero frame.

On Bicycles, and.... what else is there?: Cervelo S5 and the aero road bars
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Old 02-23-16, 09:32 AM
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I know this is a marketing document, but still an interesting read.

https://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdn...epaper_min.pdf

Even if you cut Trek's numbers in half, it still seems significant. I still struggle to believe the numbers when you see so few racers choosing aero bikes. I get that extra watts don't translate directly to results, but they can certainly contribute.

Attached Images
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Old 02-23-16, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by grwoolf
I know this is a marketing document, but still an interesting read.

https://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdn...epaper_min.pdf

Even if you cut Trek's numbers in half, it still seems significant. I still struggle to believe the numbers when you see so few racers choosing aero bikes. I get that extra watts don't translate directly to results, but they can certainly contribute.

Keep in mind, that is for the total SYSTEM. Bars, stem, seatpost, wheels, frame.

How much of that could you get from a normal, "round" tubed frame with a set of aero handlebars and 50-60mm wheels? I'm not going to hazard a number, but I'm guessing it would be a good portion of that difference.
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Old 02-23-16, 09:47 AM
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Cav said something about losing a sprint to Kristoff while Cav was in the leader's jersey. He lost by not too much and commented that maybe wearing a skinsuit would have made a difference.

I really like his Cervelo. I guess seeing him on it is different because he's closer to my size. Seeing tall CSC guys on them, not as impressive, plus they generally ran shorter wheels.

I watched Stage 1 of Qatar, I think that's the one Cav won. It was impressive, all the aero road bikes, the tall wheels. Cav must have been running ENVE 8.9s or something, his rear wheel was enormous. I think "short" wheels in that stage would have been a 50-60mm wheel, and there were some obviously huge wheels. The aero bikes, no cables showing, sleek profile from the front... I think aero road frames/bikes are going to be standard. As you said, I don't know why people aren't using them more.

I've been super fascinated with aero road frames since I started racing. I think I still have a 1984 Miyata catalog with their aero road bike, Dura Ace AX and aero tubed frame, with "aero" Araya ADX-4 rims. Probably 6 or 7 years ago, when Felt came out with their aero road bike, and Stevens and Blue and one or two others had them, I was convinced that in a year or two everyone would be on them. I guess the learning curve (and the traditionalist road racing community) slowed that change, but it's definitely happening.
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Old 02-23-16, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
Keep in mind, that is for the total SYSTEM. Bars, stem, seatpost, wheels, frame.

How much of that could you get from a normal, "round" tubed frame with a set of aero handlebars and 50-60mm wheels? I'm not going to hazard a number, but I'm guessing it would be a good portion of that difference.
If I read the report correctly, they used the same tire/wheel combo for all tests.
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Old 02-23-16, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jdms mvp
good to hear , i just bought a venge over tarmac. i dont have the powerSW$G like sagan or b.mcnulty doe
I like the venge ... I think it could use a lower head tube on the bigger sizes (I ride a 58 and it has a 19cm head tube), but that can be fixed with stems to some degree. It isn't as stiff in the BB as some of the non-aero bikes I've ridden, but it is not detrimental to performance in my opinion. Aside from that, it is a great bike and not uncomfortable in my opinion.
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