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Can we talk about the this Rivendell Hillibike thing?

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Can we talk about the this Rivendell Hillibike thing?

Old 02-28-21, 08:05 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Not at all - I'm siding exactly with you in that anyone should be able to ride for utility with any of those varied bikes, from the ugly to the pretty, to the welded-up home-built Huffy.

I'm saying that Rivendell's marketing tends to over-insinuate that certain doo-dads or their re-innovations are somehow a necessity for effective utility cycling, even though they're not. That's where I take an issue. Repeat crap like this long enough, and some of the equipment fetishers out there may start taking it as fact. As utility cycling continues to grow in the US, it's just a slippery slope before these myths become perceived facts.

The irony is that building equipment-related barriers to riding is - quite literally - the opposite of "go ride." Grant ought to look at his copy in the mirror sometime.

-Kurt

I promise that I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm really not sure what you're referring to. What sort of equipment-related barriers are you thinking Rivendell promotes?

It seems to me that Grant is promoting riding in regular clothes, without special gear, with a basket or a bag to carry stuff, a bell to alert others on MUPs of your presence, and perhaps lights if you're out at night. none of that seems to be particularly barrier-building when it comes to utility cycling -- in fact, I'd argue it's the opposite. Sure, some folks in the Rivendell universe really go over the top with bag matching and so forth, but that's hardly likely to become mainstream or be seen as any sort of a requirement by many people.

When one goes into my local Big-brand affiliated LBSs the impression that comes across to me is that you need several hundred dollars minimum of special clothing, lots of electronics, special drinks, massage oils, etc. before riding anywhere at all. I ride a lot (utility.recreational, and touring) and have for decades and I always feel out of place in most "modern" bike shops -- like I just don't know the secret handshake that makes me a "real" cyclist in their eyes. To me, that sort of thing is barrier-building, not Grant's approach -- and Rivendell's own website has featured utility-minded conversions of comparatively cheap old bikes -- they don't claim at all that buying bikes is the only way to go.
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Old 02-28-21, 08:28 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by JulesCW
I promise that I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm really not sure what you're referring to. What sort of equipment-related barriers are you thinking Rivendell promotes?

It seems to me that Grant is promoting riding in regular clothes, without special gear, with a basket or a bag to carry stuff, a bell to alert others on MUPs of your presence, and perhaps lights if you're out at night. none of that seems to be particularly barrier-building when it comes to utility cycling -- in fact, I'd argue it's the opposite. Sure, some folks in the Rivendell universe really go over the top with bag matching and so forth, but that's hardly likely to become mainstream or be seen as any sort of a requirement by many people.

When one goes into my local Big-brand affiliated LBSs the impression that comes across to me is that you need several hundred dollars minimum of special clothing, lots of electronics, special drinks, massage oils, etc. before riding anywhere at all. I ride a lot (utility.recreational, and touring) and have for decades and I always feel out of place in most "modern" bike shops -- like I just don't know the secret handshake that makes me a "real" cyclist in their eyes. To me, that sort of thing is barrier-building, not Grant's approach -- and Rivendell's own website has featured utility-minded conversions of comparatively cheap old bikes -- they don't claim at all that buying bikes is the only way to go.
True - Grant's basic premise is actually the same as, well - mine. Sneakers, oxfords or flip flops, whatever you're wearing, just ride. And yes, the mainstream is the biggest offender in this regard.

But to echo steine13, what Grant actually says isn't that. You don't need to lug around hiking gear to survive, you don't need that double top-tube for stability, and that diatribe against index shifting is a great big middle finger to people who'd rather hit a gear when they ask for it (something I personally appreciate on an upright-bar bike).

Not to mention that disliking indexed shifting also inherently pits him against IGH hubs, and his actual words are even more ludicrous than one might imagine:

Internal gears were developed for —- well, one could say “all weather riding,” but I’d say something along the lines of “crappy weather riding, and/or for riders who refuse to do any maintenance whatsoever.” If I were riding my bike to the Birmingham coal mines every day and I got home too bushed to brush my teeth, I’d go for an internal gear and hope the gear-chain dealybob didn’t slip and leave me spinning air.
There's so much bull$hit here that he ought to clean out a couple of horse stalls for a week just to realize how much he's spewing. IGHs can be very delightful outside of poor weather, and well suited for any application where stop-and-go is frequent - including some of Rivendell's models that happen to be well-suited to city use.

Plus, not every IGH is some sort of maintenance-prone pile of parts encased in a hub, as he would lead us to believe. If that were so, Nexus 3's - followed by Nexus 8s - wouldn't be the de-facto choice of bikeshare.

He knows just enough to have a platform where people believe him, and he's just ignorant enough to be a complete dilettante. The problem is when he spreads his nonsense as this pseudo-fact for his followers and those browsing. Perhaps it's ridiculous to get bent out of shape over him vs. the rest of the cycling industry, but he's fair game just the same.

-Kurt
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Old 03-01-21, 05:33 AM
  #103  
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Grant Peterson: Hipster marketing genius, before it was cool.....
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Old 03-01-21, 07:22 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by cudak888
True - Grant's basic premise is actually the same as, well - mine. Sneakers, oxfords or flip flops, whatever you're wearing, just ride. And yes, the mainstream is the biggest offender in this regard.

But to echo steine13, what Grant actually says isn't that. You don't need to lug around hiking gear to survive, you don't need that double top-tube for stability, and that diatribe against index shifting is a great big middle finger to people who'd rather hit a gear when they ask for it (something I personally appreciate on an upright-bar bike).

Not to mention that disliking indexed shifting also inherently pits him against IGH hubs, and his actual words are even more ludicrous than one might imagine:



There's so much bull$hit here that he ought to clean out a couple of horse stalls for a week just to realize how much he's spewing. IGHs can be very delightful outside of poor weather, and well suited for any application where stop-and-go is frequent - including some of Rivendell's models that happen to be well-suited to city use.

Plus, not every IGH is some sort of maintenance-prone pile of parts encased in a hub, as he would lead us to believe. If that were so, Nexus 3's - followed by Nexus 8s - wouldn't be the de-facto choice of bikeshare.

He knows just enough to have a platform where people believe him, and he's just ignorant enough to be a complete dilettante. The problem is when he spreads his nonsense as this pseudo-fact for his followers and those browsing. Perhaps it's ridiculous to get bent out of shape over him vs. the rest of the cycling industry, but he's fair game just the same.

-Kurt
I'm still not seeing barriers to utility cycling there, but...

Then again, I've never understood Grant to be claiming you need to lug around hiking gear to survive -- double top-tubes aren't my cup of tea, but they are only on a very few of even Rivendell's models, and as such are hardly likely to present a barrier to utility cycling for anybody, and I view his affection for friction as harmless or even possibly beneficial -- the rest of the world has moved to indexed shifting long ago -- and in my experience (volunteering at local bike co-op), those indexed shifters tend not to last (esp. the lower end ones) and are non-functional on about 1/2 of the donations we get -- simple friction thumb levers have rescued many, many bikes that go on to serve well instead of being junked. 1 in two million riders (at most!) will choose friction over indexing based on Grant's inconoclastic embrace of friction -- hardly a barrier to anything at all.

I think that IGHs have a place -- and yes, Nexus hubs are ok, but they (along with just about anything else Shimano makes) become junk after a while -- I had a Nexus 8-equipped commuter that after years of use needed servicing -- but no parts were available -- had to rebuild the wheel with a new hub. Same thing happened 4 years later. Perhaps an old SA (spare parts available on the secondary market for those willing to look) or a Rohloff would be better for longevity? The reason bikeshares use them is because those bikes get dropped and abused, and derailleur-equipped bikes will need more service with that kind of treatment(the now defunct bikeshare program in my town used derailleurs, and the racks were full of unrideable bikes). Yes, IGHs are great for stop and go and for lousy weather -- that's why I put one on my old commuter -- but the market largely abandoned IGHs long before friction shifting -- and again it is hard to imagine that Grant's preference for derailleurs is erecting any sort of possible real world barrier to utility cycling.

If you feel that pro friction shifting and anti-IGH rhetoric constitutes major barriers to utility cycling that outweigh the impact of advocating for wider tires, just ride, go have fun, no competition attitude then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm always amazed at the amount of passion and dislike GP manages to generate given that Riv is such a non-factor as a part of the overall bike market -- none of his eccentricities are going to prevent anyone from accessing indexing, carbon, lycra, or, indeed, IGHs. It's a bit as though Ford and Chevy fans spent lots of energy condemning Morgan cars as some sort of existential threat to their ability to enjoy a large SUV -- what's the point?

I wish you all the best -- go and vent some anti-Grant frustration by taking one of your glorious vintage IGH-equipped bike out for a spin in warm Florida sunshine! Enjoy and be well.
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Old 03-01-21, 08:32 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by JulesCW
I'm always amazed at the amount of passion and dislike GP manages to generate given that Riv is such a non-factor as a part of the overall bike market
I agree - and fully admit that I didn't expect (nor wish) to push my observation of his marketing this far, and I don't know why I've bothered. To be honest, our debate has been more or less in the same direction - might as well leave it there

-Kurt
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Old 03-01-21, 02:07 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by JulesCW
I'm always amazed at the amount of passion and dislike GP manages to generate given that Riv is such a non-factor as a part of the overall bike market -- none of his eccentricities are going to prevent anyone from accessing indexing, carbon, lycra, or, indeed, IGHs. It's a bit as though Ford and Chevy fans spent lots of energy condemning Morgan cars as some sort of existential threat to their ability to enjoy a large SUV -- what's the point?

I wish you all the best -- go and vent some anti-Grant frustration by taking one of your glorious vintage IGH-equipped bike out for a spin in warm Florida sunshine! Enjoy and be well.
I, too, marvel at the amount of venom GP and Riv seem to attract. Hey, if you don't like what their selling, yo don't have to come into or stay in the store.

I'm not sure I'd agree, though, that they are "a non-factor as a part of the overall bike market." Yes, Riv is a small operation compared to Specialized, Trek, etc. But they have influenced the bike world well beyond their modest size would lead one to expect. GP and Riv were singing the praises of steel frames when they were in serious decline. They were not the only voices in the wilderness, but they were among the most persistent and insistent. The fact that the demand for good steel frames is due in significant part to GP and Riv.

GP and Riv identified a market that others have cheerfully tapped into. There are a number of other folks who build and sell steel "unracer" frames and bikes. Rivendell predates virtually all of them, and that is not accounting for the influence GP had via Bridgestone USA before that. Bigger. airier tires? Yes, other folks have pushed those, especially Jan Henne. But Riv has been beating that drum since the 1990s, and GP was singing t e praises of frames that could fit bigger tires while at Bridgestone as well. Jan Henne and his Compass products no doubt would exist, and no doubt would still have found their market, regardless, but Rivendell helped set the stage for them.

Noodle bars and their ilk? Riv made these happen. Wider bars for those of us who are not built like skinny, protein-deprived post-WWII Italians? GP and Riv made those happen, too.

No, Grant Petersen did not single-handedly slay the Visigoths and preserve the secrets of lugged steel and 110/74 BCD cranksets. But he and Rivendell have had far more influence on the bike market than any operation their size would have any right to expect.

And a lot of that has to do with the marketing that gets so many knickers in a twist. It obviously gets peoples' attention, and just as obviously has not insignificant influence.
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Old 03-01-21, 02:52 PM
  #107  
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I have 2 Rivendell’s and like them very much.



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Old 03-01-21, 03:01 PM
  #108  
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@fender1, clearly you've been brainwashed.
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Old 03-01-21, 03:03 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by nlerner
@fender1, clearly you've been brainwashed.
I am all about taking directives from the great and all powerful GP. He only want's what's best for us, so throw away you SPD pedals! You have nothing to lube but your chains!
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Old 03-01-21, 04:08 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer
Wider bars for those of us who are not built like skinny, protein-deprived post-WWII Italians? GP and Riv made those happen, too.
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Old 03-01-21, 10:11 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by nlerner
@fender1, clearly you've been brainwashed.
I did bother to study the differences and similarities of those green pair.
different, but not at first glance. I would have diverged on the color more.
the slow vehicle placard is safe but in LA to get overtaken safely - it’s an undulating flash LED taillight.
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Old 03-26-21, 04:59 PM
  #112  
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Caught on film:

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Old 03-26-21, 06:20 PM
  #113  
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It doesn't seem like the bike kept him from having fun.
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Old 03-26-21, 10:08 PM
  #114  
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A lot of the kids causing havoc in Miami Beach right now need to learn that getting drunk and doing burnouts in the middle of the public street makes for a pretty sucky, stupid spring break - especially when the alternative is stuff like that ride.

-Kurt

P.S.: Still don't get the thumbie placement though, especially when you have so much handlebar real estate at hand.
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Old 03-26-21, 11:32 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by bark_eater
Caught on film:
the shifter placement just seems like it was placed in an intentionally more difficult location. Why would you want to take your entire hand off the bar to shift while going over large rocks or around tight bends? Seems like 2 hands in those instances would be ideal.
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Old 03-27-21, 08:02 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
the shifter placement just seems like it was placed in an intentionally more difficult location. Why would you want to take your entire hand off the bar to shift while going over large rocks or around tight bends? Seems like 2 hands in those instances would be ideal.
I was wondering the same thing. The only thing I could think of is that it is a prototype bar that is not available yet and maybe(?) they are testing different set ups. Otherwise, looked like a lot of fun and that bar may be in my future.
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Old 03-27-21, 08:06 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
the shifter placement just seems like it was placed in an intentionally more difficult location. Why would you want to take your entire hand off the bar to shift while going over large rocks or around tight bends? Seems like 2 hands in those instances would be ideal.
Yea.. Looks like there's a bit of workaround engineering going on. With the swept back bars and wrappy wrappy grips, an unscheduled deceleration could jam your hands up on shifters mounted for shifting from the grips. It did look like the rider was using the "hoods" a bit more when climbing, which might be where quicker shifting is needed. I also didnt see a lot of out of the saddle riding, which seems weird to me mainly from riding beach cruisers with swept back bars. They have 2 speeds, sitting and standing.
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Old 03-27-21, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bark_eater
I also didnt see a lot of out of the saddle riding, which seems weird to me mainly from riding beach cruisers with swept back bars.
I noticed that, and wondered if the rider is used to riding IGHs.

Nothing wrong with a nice big gear to spin at leisure up a grade though. Did that over a bridge recently during a Bike to Work Day celebration ride with a Nexus 8, and I must say I was just a bit smug at the idea of chortling up the hill slowly but easily. Everyone else seemed to be in a big hurry to sweat it up in a much taller gear.

-Kurt
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Old 03-27-21, 04:36 PM
  #119  
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It’s the usual stoicism thing. You need to make it hard so you can appreciate it.
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Old 03-27-21, 05:50 PM
  #120  
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I’ve read this thread while it was spun but I don’t think I read how the weight of one of these Sams or Playpus bikes compares to a 85 Stumpy or Cimarron. I don’t think I weighed my 85 Cimarron. It rode wonderfully but I adjusted my workouts to include some curls in order to make it less challenging to hang it up in the garage. A lightweight Cimarron would be cool. Place the shifters where they work for you. For example: Brifters from the drops are awkward.
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Old 03-27-21, 07:01 PM
  #121  
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I met my match hanging a Big Dummy.....
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Old 03-27-21, 10:46 PM
  #122  
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I get the Riv thing... and I don't.

I like the aesthetic and emulate many of the same ideas in the old rigid mtb rebuilds I do. But part of that allure is knowing what can be done with an old cheap bike because the bones are there. That era of design was a blank canvas for the ATB all rounder.

At the same time, if I had thousands to spend on a new bike I would probably buy modern tech instead, not something I could make from a thrift store find.

Yet... if I were to get into the business bicycle manufacturing as a passion, instead of purely for profit, I might very well try to make the modern version of the old rigid mtb conversions I like to do. I just probably wouldn't be my own customer.

The only negative I got from his catalog thingy was the modern mtb bashing. Seriously, if you have to walk the bike up and down steep hills because it isn't designed to handle them don't bash another genre because they can. That kind of shade makes me think less of the author than if they just pumped their own merits.

My cheap Hilli before I ever knew there was such a thing.



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Old 04-01-21, 01:54 PM
  #123  
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Not really interested in the Riv debate (I'm a non-owner, but admirer), but thought folks might like to see some hillibike riding in action - looks pretty fun to me. (I believe Crust is a Riv dealer.)
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Old 04-02-21, 12:17 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by fender1
I have 2 Rivendell’s and like them very
me too...but I do think the new ones are UGLY🙀

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Old 04-02-21, 04:31 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Bogester
me too...but I do think the new ones are UGLY🙀
I like both of these but this road custom is fantastic. The colors are great.
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