Ti473

I really wanted a new bike this year, but due to the supply shortage I ended up just upgrading new fancy wheels for my current road bike.

I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, as I'm still trying to resolve the issue with them, so I will go as far as saying they are one of the major players in wheels, make their carbon in-house here in the US. As for their CNC work (for hubs and such) I don't think they do any production, and it's probably farmed out (speculating only).

Anyway, my frame uses the not so popular QR disc standard (135x10 rear, 100x9 front). The disc wheels obviously came set up with TA caps, so I had to get QR caps separately.

When I go put the front wheel on it doesn't fit. I measure the caps and they are 9.94 mm... weird. Dropout is a nominal 9 mm and actual 9.19. So I emailed them and they said that sometimes they need to be "encouraged" in, and that all the caps they got laying around are 10mm but they will send me a new set anyway. Sure enough the new caps are exactly the same. I'm not expecting aerospace precision here, but a full mm is not a tolerance issue, it's a spec issue, and you don't force 10mm into 9, it's just not gonna happen.

I know that there are not that many QR disc bikes out there, but how can I be the only one that has run into this issue, especially with a company that sells so many wheels? I also know that these hubs are relatively new too, but they have been around for a couple of years now.

I'm certainly not going to file my dropouts, and don't want to return the wheels, so ultimately I am going to have to send the caps to a machine shop to have them turned on a lathe.

Rant over...

waters60

Maybe these:?!
[img]blob:https://www.bikeforums.net/9cd69d2f-9502-4912-9641-c861bba5466a[/img]

Psimet2001 

As a wheel company I can tell you I have seen it all in the last few years. Most of my peers have just taken the attitude of not caring about backwards compatibility issues and will just tell you "sorry" and move on.

I ran into an issue early on with our house hubs that wouldn't clear on some dropouts. They were using the 15mm TA endcaps for both 12mm and 15mm and just putting the right sized hole in it. Problem was the OD of the endcap kept it from going into certain frames and drops. They eventually fixed their endcaps to make special ones for each axle size that took care of the issue.

"make carbon in house but not hubs" sounds like Enve. You're not throwing anyone under the bus. Enve is large enough they'll be OK. In reality almost all wheel companies contract out their hubs. That's meaningless though. It's kind of like saying "Honda contracts out it's brake calipers" or something. That's just the way the world works.

As for your endcaps/axle being too large for your dropout - that's jus the way it is. If you're on quick release then it's not like they're going to do a change, quite honestly, and to fit your specific frame the solution is to turn your axle down. I know you feel like everything across the industry should be fully interchangeable but the truth is it isn't and never will be. There are simply too many "standards" and small nuances that frame manufacturers introduce. For main components there are very specific frame builder specifications. There also are for wheels. tbh I have a feeling your frame OEM is the one to blame for interference.

As for them running into this before - yes the right response is "sometimes they have to be persuaded" because in reality a lot of frames have flaws and do sometimes have to be persuaded into place. If it's a clear interference then you have your choice to fix the frame or turn down the axle. I'm sure you might take issue with my use of "fix the frame" but quite honestly that's most likely the case. They put a tight channel in their dropout that just doesn't need to be there it sounds like.

I could be wrong because I don't have everything on hand in front of me but there's a reason that as a custom builder as well as local service shop that we have a lathe on hand.

Ti473

Hey Rob, Thanks for the reply.
First of all I have no issues that they farm out the chip cutting work, I work in the manufacturing industry (I sell CNC machines) so I know how that works, nothing wrong with that. Company X says to job shop Y "we need a 1000 of part Z made", and they supply a CAD drawing. And I think that's where they fell short... the drawing says "make this OD 10mm" and not 9. I totally get that the word "standard" in the cycling industry is kind of an oxymoron, but there still are standards. I could be wrong, but as far I know, QR standard has always been 9mm for front and 10mm for dropouts. Every other front cap I had in my parts bin is 9 +/- .05mm. Not an OEM issue either, as I said the fork measures 9.18mm to account for tolerance issues. A flaw issue would be if the fork was 9.02mm and the cap was 9.08... I can see where you would sand it down and persuade it in in that scenario. But 1mm in CNC machining is like a mile, it's not caused by tool wear or machine backlash, it's just the program being wrong.
This is the kind of stuff that I expect from shopping direct to consumer from China, where they reverse engineer everything and don't necessarily understand why a part is made the way it's made. I've bought frames on aliexpress before, and I've had to bust out the dremel and sand paper and "massage" a few things. And that's ok because the expectations were what they were.
But this is the same as DT Swiss making a 12x142 axle 13mm in diameter... it just doesn't happen.
I'm just shocked that it hasn't been rectified, but as I said, maybe it's a combination of the hubs being fairly new, the demand for QR disc caps low, and the fact that they don't have direct control over production.

Psimet2001 

Yeah I used to be in heavy metal fabrication in general and chip cutting specifically. Used to do a ton of capital equipment projects and tooling contracts for large operations so I know the machine tool industry well.

That said - believe it or not - this has nothing to do with it. Take what you know about manufacturing and throw it out the window.

The reason I am saying this is because you're making the assumption there was a print.... that print was somehow made by or discussed with the wheel OEM. This just isn't the case. Hubs are greatly considered in this industry to be bolt on accessories. Most wheel brands will just use hubs from a hub manufacturer. They don't play any role in designing or specifying the hub really. Some wheel companies do design or play the spec. My guess is that you hit one of the ones that doesn't touch the hubs at all except to unbox them and lace them into the wheels.

If that's the case then anything along the lines of what you're discussing would go as follows, "Hey hub OEM....I had a customer say the front QR hub doesn't fit into his frame." "Oh...you know how bike people are. They don't know what they're talking about. Besides - who uses QR anymore anyway? I haven't heard any other complaints so... this one is on you guys. If you want us to make different end caps then we're going to need a print and you're going to have to pay for a first run with MOQ's in the thousands." "Eh..you're probably right. Customer probably doesn't know what they're talking about. Thanks."

You've left out all the specifics so... debating what happened or why you're seeing what you're seeing is really just an academic exercise.

Every company is different but unless you were dealing with a small builder that would actually get involved and find the solution for you then you're kind of peeing into the wind. Get the nub turned down and move on. *shrug*.

For all we know this is a modular hub system and the hub factory used endcaps from the rear 10mm on the front. or the guys at the wheel company don't realize there's a difference..... etc.

Ti473

These hubs are branded as their own, and I haven't seen anything like them around. They look very similar to their carbon version of the same hubs that were launched earlier. I'm not saying that the internals aren't borrowed from somebody else, but I am pretty sure that the shell design came from within the company. Not modular either, front and back are very different. The rear ND side is a two piece design that uses a "dust cover" and an axle reducer. I still haven't figured out how to remove that dust cover once pressed in by the way, since it's recessed in the center lock flange and there's barely anything to grab on to... but that's a different story.
I guarantee you they don't have the same issue with caps on the rim brake QR hub, as they are still used widely. Visually there's a difference between the front and rear caps from pictures I've seen of those.
Anyway, I know the solution will be quite simple: find a friend with a lathe, chuck them up and turn them a half mil.
I'm more annoyed by the fact that my complain is falling on deaf ears than me actually having to mod them to be honest.

Ti473

And I'd post a picture but my newbie status doesn't allow me yet, need to complain a little more I guess...