PDKL45

Disclaimer: I understand that running a 1x drivetrain instead of a triple can create a paradox resulting in the heat death of the universe and am cognizant of the fact that the jump between gears on an 11-50 9 speed cassette is so big that only superhuman transdimensional beings should attempt to ride such a monstrosity, but I'm a rebel (or a rogue? I can never remember) and am merely exploring options. I'm exploring ideas for a future replacement drivetrain, I do not own one (yet), and I am merely thinking about how it could be made to work in practice. I know about clutch derailleurs as well, I have a chainstay protector, and most importantly, it would be for a touring bike/commuter ridden on 95% paved surfaces. Chainslap is a thing, but not the end of the world.

So, Sunrace have a new(ish) 11-50 9 speed cassette in a few variants and Box also have a 12-50 cassette (or three variants thereof). Setting aside the obvious answer of "just use the derailleur that the manufacturer offers," can anyone think of how you could make a Deore M592 derailleur, or a newer Alivio derailleur work with such a cassette? Or any other rear derailleur with clearance for the fatter 9 speed links?

Maybe use a Wolftooth Goatlink? Or the newer, longer Roadlink?

Thanks for any ideas.

cxwrench

I've never actually tried the M592 with a huge cassette like this because it's a pretty dumb idea. While the 592 easily has the capacity to do this, it's max cog size is a whopping 16 teeth under that you need. The b-tension screws on these older derailleurs don't do much at all compared to the newer derailleurs so even with a Wolftooth link of some type (which are only supposed to work w/ up a 42t cog max you're going to have problems.

PDKL45

Yeah, the 36t max cog size is the sticking point. Getting the derailleur in beneath that 50t cog would be a hell of a feat.

70sSanO

Per Wolf Tooth... GoatLink only works with clutch RD’s with a direct mount.

I’m using a RoadLink with an XT RD760 up to a 40t on my mtb’s. It is really amazing and I don’t need a longer B-screw. But it isn’t a 50t. That said, if you have the derailleur and the cassette, you can try a RoadLink as see how it works.

In theory if The RoadLink doesn’t quite get there, you could buy, machine, one with even more of a derailleurs extension (drop), it might work with a 50t. But it may just be a piece of junk also.

John

cxwrench

If you've got a derailleur that's spec'd for a max cog of 36t and you position it lower and lower to get clearance for a 50t cog you're definitely going to run into shifting problems on the smaller cogs. Sure, it may clear the 50 but you're going to be so far away from the 11, 13, 15 it's going shift like crap.

70sSanO

That is true. It does make one wonder, what RD that 9 speed 11-50 cassette was designed to be used.

John

70sSanO

I applaud your rebelness. I am always skeptical of having to maintain a setup within specs, for specs sake, and love outside the box hacks that work well.

If you don’t get a response from someone who has actually tried and ridden an 11-50 9 speed setup, google it. There are those out there who have done this with a Shimano 9 speed.

There are also 10 speed RD cable hacks to run a 9 speed system. But may expand your definition of rebel.

John

ljsense

Good question: got me wondering about doing that for a 9-speed mountain bike too.

Here's one approach I came across (not mine, have no idea if it works, but it got a lot of support):

I’ve reverted to a 10spd SLX shadow+ mech sgs cage which I run with a sram x7 9spd shifter, giving even better shifting

Iride01 

I'm really surprised no one's pointed out the uselessness of a 1x derailleur.

But I guess we all knew what you meant when you added the part about being for a 11-50 cassette.

I suppose it might be useful for removing the chain from the front sprocket, but it seems a 2x or 3x front DR would work equally well on a 1x crank.<grin>

fietsbob

Look at latest derailleurs spec'd on bikes with that huge a range.. rather than "speeds" (9 is so long ago these days)
as the mech just moves inward continuously between limit screws the clicks are in the lever
the relationship between the click command and the motion of the rear mech is well .. Math ..

Wolf Tooth , a company in the US makes these puts whole mount lower to potentially clear abnormally big cassettes..

fietsbob

Yea, a 1 X derailleur, basically is a chain tensioner .. I have one on my Rohloff hub Bike Friday..

PDKL45

Sunrace have an M9 9 speed derailleur for 50t, Box have their derailleurs and there is a Microshift Advent derailleur for the new 11-46 9 speed Advent cassette.

Having looked at things again, I don't think an Alivio or Deore (older 9 speed Deore) would work. I don't really have the technical vocabulary to explain properly, but all of the derailleurs for 50t cogs feature a small pulley wheel and longer lever arm beyond the bolt, for greater leverage to pull that jockey wheel down below the 50t cog.

I think the answer will be to either go with a 9 speed 11-50 cassette and get a derailleur and shifter to match from the manufacturer, or to go with a 10 or 11 speed cassette, because the narrow-wide chainring I have will work fine with 9-10-11 speed chains. I am looking at the Sunrace 11-51 cassette now, wondering about a derailleur for that as well. Still, there's no rush. I have only just come to the end of the first cassette on my current 3x9 crankset, so there is time before I will need to change my drivetrain, even though I'm commuting a lot more during the Covid pandemic and really going through stuff.

Thanks for the roadlink link Bob, I actually went full rebel with one of those a year or two ago. I was running a Sunrace 11-40 cassette, shifted by a long cage Sora derailleur with a 26-36-48 crankset. I did not think it was possible, until my LBS bike mechanic said "hold my beer" and made it so.

m0unt41n_d0

Sorry to resurrect this (not really) but I have an old Iron Horse FS that was a 3x9. I have a Shimano HG-361 crankset that I had on it with 3 rings however it is one that is bolted instead of riveted so I removed the chainings that were on it and installed a 30 tooth NW and removed the front derailleur.

I have been stubborn about going to a 1x but the way the rear suspension pivot is on the bike, I decided to make this my first one. I only paid $100 for the bike so I'm not looking to put much into it money wise because if I stick with riding I plan on getting a newer bike that is better to begin with. This is my first FS and although the components aren't the best by far, they are better than what comes on a department store Mongoose or Next, etc. So the issue now is, not enough range. I found a few offerings from Sunrace, Microshift, and Sram for 11 to 46 and 11 to 50 tooth 9 speed cassettes. Some of them require matching components from the same line and 1 requires a microspline freehub (adapter?) which I have only discovered exists in doing this hunting mission.

I know 9 speed wide range is not a popular choice but I also know it can work and the pros and cons associated with it. I'm ok with the larger steps between gears and not being able to get much higher gearing. I am focused on the lower gears and keeping this project as inexpensive as possible so 10, 11, & 12 speed full groupset swaps aren't in the budget and I'm trying to not have to buy as many new parts as possible. So far it's looking like at least a cassette and rear derailleur. I was hoping to not have to buy a derailleur but it looks like my RD-T4000 isn't capable of handling the wide range cassette. Another thing I'm trying to avoid is using any kind of hanger extension. I'll stick with the limited range and stay away from trails where I'll need it before I use that option. Even with stainless steel hangers vs. aluminum "alloys" I still struggle with keeping the hangers straight!

So, negative opinions about a 1x9 wide range drivetrain aside, I am looking for info from anyone who may have real world knowledge of what could possibly work and any points in the direction of known suppliers with deals to be had. I've read enough of the critical input so I don't really need any of that, thanks.

tFUnK

I run 1x10 on my MTB and I use a RD extender to make it work with the 13-50t (modified from an 11-50t). It's hard to wrap all that chain but it works as long as I'm not in the 13t too much. After riding on this setup for a while, I'm rethinking whether I need the 50t or if I can get away with just a 42t. I'd still need the RD extender but the shifts should be better and there'd be less chain to wrap.

m0unt41n_d0

Thanks for the response but I'm not all about going to a 10 speed on this bike. It's a $100 beater that I put some mediocre parts on to get out there on a tight budget. I threw some Shimano 3x9 stuff on there to get it going because it's what I could afford at the time but the front derailleur on this thing has been a challenge due to limited mounting clearance under the rear triangle pivot mount so I gave up after a few that I tried wouldn't work.

I got a $16 Microshift FD to work after grinding a couple of mm of material from the bottom of the pivot mount but then couldn't get to the limit screws. I finally found one that had the clearance and access to the limit stops but it was a $9 Tourney derailleur from a 7/8 speed so I had to squeeze the cage to get it to work well but after a couple hundred miles it had gone back to it's original shape and in order to prevent that from happening I would have had to take a chance on just destroying the cage so I just ordered a couple of cheap NW chain rings that fit my crank set and tossed the lot for sale on FB marketplace.

In order to go to 10 speed, it would cost about $200 for a cheap setup. I don't like buying cheap if I'm trying to make something last awhile so I'd prefer to have the $400+/- Sram 1x10 group set but I would like to save as much as I can on this bike so that I can stash some away toward the price of a decent complete bike in a few months. I've seen some decent starter bikes in the $2500 to $4000 range and that's what I'm shooting for. I know a couple of hundred don't seem like a lot but to me it is significant so I'm sticking with the 9 until I get a better idea of what I'll want on the new bike. I'm thinking 11 or 12 for it already though...

tFUnK

I get that you want to stay 9 speed but while my example was with a 10 speed setup, what I wrote applies to 9 speed as well. You'll run into the same constraints and issues and there are ways around it.
Your RD has a 45t capacity which is massive and more than enough to run a 11-50t cassette; the only thing to solve is to get it to clear the big cog which a simple RD extender will solve. I use cheap extenders that look like unbranded versions of the Wolf Tooth one.

mpetry912 

while it may seem like the major challenge is to get the derailleur to clear the 50t cog, a look at the Frank Berto "dancing chain" book which is still a classic read, will tell you that the long unsupported span of chain between the upper pulley and the cog will lead to very poor / imprecise shifting when on the smaller cogs.

In short, will shift like a soup sandwich. You may be able to "make it work" but it won't work well. or reliably.

/markp

m0unt41n_d0

OK, I got you. Apologies, it was late, I was tired and not focused. I just read your response again and realized that I totally missed your point. Thanks for getting me straight. I am only concerned with the extender because I seem to be hard on hangers in general. It seems like I have to straighten them almost every time I take it off the beaten path. I bought stainless steel hangers to see if they would help. I think they do to some extent as it seems like I'm having to straighten them less often since but it's still an issue when I get into the tanglewood. Maybe I should just learn to stay out of the thickets but i find it fun to trample through it cutting my own path. I'm always cussing myself after anyway because I have debris all through my socks and shoes and in my ears and hair and all other places where it shouldn't be... but it's just so fun! I'll give it a shot. It can't hurt anything and worst case is, I'm no better off with the hanger issue, but I may have my low gears. Thanks, I'll let you know how it goes.

36 tooth with B screw almost all the way in

1st gear 30t chainring, 36t cog

Not much room for an FD...

Where I removed some material for the Microshift FD

The beast.

tFUnK

Agree with this in theory, but have not really found this to be true in practice when using RD extenders. My experience (1x12-36, 1x13-50, 2x12-40) has been that once set up properly, the shifting is precise but just slightly slower than a regular setup with 12-28 to 11-32 cassettes. The caveat being (and this is relevant to the thread resurrecter) that the extender does seem somewhat prone to being bent (eg, if my bike tips over onto the DS), in which case even slight bending (not visually obvious) of the extender and or RD hanger can cause shifting issues can emerge or become exacerbated.
I guess in short I do agree with you that it's not ideal but it's also not terrible.

Canker

Microshift advent x is $160 for the cassette, shifter and chain.
https://www.twohoosierscyclery.com/m...rce=googlebase
Kind of hard to beat that for the price vs hacking stuff together. I just "upgraded" my 11 speed XT setup to advent X because my knees couldn't live with the 42 in the back anymore and weight for the buck it won out over going to 12 speed. 11-50 11 speed and 12 speed cassettes are boat anchors unless you spend $$$$ and/or upgrade the freehub.

CrimsonEclipse

I'm going to second Canker's suggestion.

There are a couple of inexpensive manufacturers of 10 speed 50t compatible derailleurs that do not require Wolf's Tooth like extenders.

The extenders will actually work but they do add a part and a weak point in the drive train.

That said, I own 2 bikes with Wolf's Tooth knock offs that converted them from 32t ish to 42t knowing that any impact would likely cause a bend or complete failure of the link and possibly the derailleur (both SRAMS I think).
Anything beyond that should be purpose built.

Also note that you may have to adjust the chain line. The new front cog might have to be brought more to the center of the rear cassette, so if you need to bring the front ring closer to the frame, your option of ring size might be limited.

On one of my bikes, I'm limited to 34T and not a single T larger.

Also, the suggestion on the narrow-wide front crank is a great idea.

m0unt41n_d0

I broke down and ordered a couple of different inexpensive extenders and an 11 to 46 tooth SunRace cassette for $40(ish) from Amazon. I put it all together and it is working, however I haven't really tested it on any of the "off road" trails I go on. Was going to today but the weather has been threatening storms all day, but since I didn't go out, it didn't storm. Had I hit the trails, it more than likely would have, especially if I had any problems while out there. That's just how things go for me.

There is a LOT of space between the pulley and the cassette in the higher gears but it tightens up real fast when I get down to the 3 lowest gears and at first it looked like it wasn't going to clear the cog to go onto the biggest one but amazingly it did. I didn't have to mess with the indexing, it works fine with the adjustments that I had set for the Shimano 11 to 36. The extender I have on there is the longer of the 2 I ordered, the short one hasn't arrived yet but I'm assuming it won't work based on the tight clearance with this long one for the lower gears.

I have tested it out on the street a few short rides and besides being a little "chattery" it works good and shifts fairly well. I do see it possibly being susceptible to damage from protruding rocks or getting caught on branches and such that may be in the "right" spots to do so but I won't know for sure until I get a chance to get it out there and hit some trouble spots. Hopefully I can do that this week after work. I also started with a 30 tooth chain ring but i changed it to a 34 tooth and it seems much better especially for the higher gears and still plenty of low gear hill climbing ability.

So, for anyone who is considering this, here are the results from my experience. I was able to use my existing rear derailleur and shifter. I had to add 2 full chain links (2 inner links and 2 outer plates) to my existing chain. I had removed 3 from the 9 speed Shimano chain that I bought to use with the 3x9 so I had them. If you don't have them you'll need either a new 9 speed chain or to source some spare links from a chain of the same model as what you have. I purchased the extender from Amazon for less than $10 and the cassette, also from Amazon, a SunRace 9 speed 11 to 46 tooth for $39.99 plus tax. Anyone concerned with the larger steps between gears because of less cogs should not be. It's just not a thing despite what you may have read or heard. And that's about the extent of it. I'm very happy with the results so far and will post back if I have any issues out on the less travelled trails. Go for it!


1x9 speed 11 to 46 tooth with RD extender

low gear position

high gear position

34 tooth chainring

squirtdad

I think you could add another couple of links the large cog postiion really looks like it is pushing the limits and the small cog looks like there is additional cability to take up slack

Camilo

See if one of the Microshift 9 spd 1X RDs will have a 50t sprocket capacity. But be warned - unlike the typical compatibility of Microshift stuff, their 1X Advent systems are not compatible with Shimano shifters. But the Microshift shifters aren't hugely expensive, so you might consider switching to their 1X... again, if they have the capacity youre looking for.

They make 9 speed and 10 speed Advent 1X. I have the 9 speed and I'm really happy with it. I imagine 10sp would work perfectly too, maybe better (after all, it's more expensive!)

m0unt41n_d0

Considering the 9 speed chains are all 116 links and I originally removed 3 for the 3x9 and put 2 back on for this, that only leaves me with 1 link to possibly put back on unless I buy another entire chain for a link or 2. I took the bike through my favorite gambit of local trails that run along the creek near my place and put this setup through probably the most technical stuff I'm going to be riding it through and purposely went through some thicker areas trying to get as much adverse activity for the rear derailleur as possible and although I couldn't watch what was going on back there the entire time, I was able to get a large piece of a branch caught in the spokes of the rear wheel and got hung up an a big tree stump that had started some regrowth but neither one seemed to affect the rear derailleur. I didn't go so far as to purposely side kick it off rocks or trees because well, that's just stupid and destructive. It does look like if I were to bang something solid with any kind of sideways momentum it would knock the hanger out of alignment at the very least. I am getting the shorter hanger extension Sunday and it looks like it might work because it's only a bit shorter and by the looks of what I have for clearance with this one, if it works, the shorter one should tuck it up a bit more and possibly relieve the chain length as well. Thanks for the feedback and I'll update after I try it with the shorter hanger extension.