Go Back  Bike Forums > The Lounge > Foo
Reload this Page >

Any boxing fans out there?

Notices
Foo Off-Topic chit chat with no general subject.

Any boxing fans out there?

Old 06-30-16, 10:16 PM
  #126  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by Garfield Cat View Post
In the first Duran v. Leonard fight, it was Duran. But second fight is what most people remember.
I remembered the Buchanan fight and his run through the lightweights first, including fighting some junior welterweight sized guys in non title fights. And Buchanan wasn't an easy win although I'd have given Duran almost every round. The stoppage and the low blow kinda sucked but he was as good as done anyway. Never got that rematch he wanted. I never did think Buchanan the hopeful great that they were beginning to predict but he did fight everywhere, not just Europe. That was pretty rare back then. I just cringe when Scots fighters wear plaid trunks though. Fine when they're winning but plaid skirt jokes are just waiting for their chance to be heard. I also hated when Nat Fleischer would do those ethnic tribute issues of Ring Magazine. Because we were not numerous in the sport.

When Duran moved up in weight officially he didn't just sign a contract for a championship fight. He fought a few good guys like Monroe Brookes to establish himself before winning me $20 in the first Leonard fight. But I could also see Leonard pull it up in winning the last rounds so I bet on him in the second. But I wouldn't even watch the third. Like I said earlier in the thread though, every time I thought Duran's career was done he would surprise the boxing world with another unexpected title win at a weight class up.

Originally Posted by Garfield Cat View Post
Armando Muniz: I was disappointed in Muniz when he fought Ray Leonard. In the early rounds, the bell sounded, he went back to his corner and never came back out. Before that he had Ray Leonard on the ropes and he could have lashed out a flurry of punches, but he just let Ray off the hook.
Fighters always mull their losses but he was just getting the hell beat out of him and Leonard was setting down on those punches. Lesser fighters than Muniz would have been taking a count on their ass. No shame at all in that one.

Ray's eyes were big as if he was scared when he was up against the ropes.
Careful careful. Possum possum.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-01-16, 01:45 AM
  #127  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
"...every time I thought Duran's career was done he would surprise the boxing world with another unexpected title win at a weight class up."
Yup, despite Duran's occasional lapses from greatness -- the rematch against Leonard; his disastrous miscalculation of Hearns -- he was remarkable for his ability to campaign successfully against much bigger opponents. Even some of his losses, such as against Hagler, showed abilities beyond his natural size and strength.

Duran's career was particularly remarkable when you consider the number of great boxers who couldn't fight above their early successful weights. For example, Erik Morales looked like he should have been able to handle the transition from his rail-thin days as a super-bantamweight and featherweight up the lightweight and possibly welterweight. But he couldn't carry his punching power beyond featherweight and looked sluggish against Zahir Raheem. And at light-welter he looked pudgy and slow. (And don't get me started on how referee Robert Gonzales ripped off Raheem by interfering with him in every possible way against Rocky Juarez.)

Similarly De La Hoya peaked at welterweight, could just handle himself well enough at light-middle to beat some limited fighters, but was pudgy and sluggish at middleweight.

Makes guys like Duran, Emile Griffith, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Bernard Hopkins, Jimmy Ellis, James Toney and others more impressive for their abilities to handle themselves well above their natural weights.
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-02-16, 09:49 PM
  #128  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yup, despite Duran's occasional lapses from greatness -- the rematch against Leonard; his disastrous miscalculation of Hearns -- he was remarkable for his ability to campaign successfully against much bigger opponents. Even some of his losses, such as against Hagler, showed abilities beyond his natural size and strength.

Duran's career was particularly remarkable when you consider the number of great boxers who couldn't fight above their early successful weights.


I'd always assumed that it was head trainer ancient Ray Arcel who did the work with Duran in his evolution from the Buchanan fight until he fought the first Sugar Ray Leonard fight. He'd been a boxing trainer for all the way back to Benny Leonard (during his '30s comeback) and Ezzard Charles. But Duran might've inadvertently nixed the movie that was being considered about the two's boxing career relationship by publicly stating that it was cut man / asst. trainer Freddie Brown who did all that work with him. The three are in the photo above.


I won $20 on it not going past 5 rounds and just barely won my bet. I missed seeing it until later though. It was Ring Magazine's FOTY (fight of the year). We had heavyweight action going in the '70s.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-30-17 at 04:16 AM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-03-16, 12:52 AM
  #129  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
Yeah, Freddie Brown is among those invisible men who didn't get the credit he'd earned for contributing to the successes of boxers he mentored. This is among the articles that seems to dig behind the scenes.

Sometimes assistants and corner men don't get the recognition they deserve. One notable example was Shane Mosley's final IBF lightweight title defense in 1999, against John Brown, one of those little pocket rockets who fought better than his stature should have allowed.

Brown's main trainer or manager -- I don't recall his name now -- completely lost his composure as the fight wore on. Maybe he was too emotionally wrapped up in Brown, regarding him as a proxy son. But he couldn't handle the beating Brown was taking from Mosley. The trainer/manager was freaking out between rounds, way too emotional, and actually quit during the fight, leaving Brown to the care of his corner men. It was a hopeless mismatch but Brown fought valiantly. No shame in losing to Mosley, one of the all time great ring craftsmen. But Brown's own manager/trainer failed him. Shades of post-Cus D'amato Mike Tyson, hmm?

I could relate in a very minor way. I never had a decent trainer/corner man until I'd already been an amateur boxer for several years. My trainers were clueless doofuses who mostly wanted to hang around the gym shooting the bull with their buddies. I can't recall a single bit of advice from them, other than "quit dancing around so much", which was the worst possible advice I'd ever been given. It wasn't until I re-learned lateral movement and quick juking around that I became a better defensive boxer. My only decent trainer was an experienced guy in Washington DC who knew Sugar Ray Leonard, Johnny Gant and some of those great DC area boxers. I was already in my early 20s but he finally taught me some of the fundamentals I'd been missing all those years. And he was the first trainer I had who emphasized body work -- both offensive and defensive. After I moved from his area and no longer had a decent trainer I quit amateur boxing. I knew it was pointless without solid guidance from an experienced guy with a cool head.
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-03-16, 01:08 AM
  #130  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
BTW, that Foreman video reminded me of a video I re-watched last night:
.

Cooper got an unfair rap for not coming out after the second round. IIRC, the commission withheld Cooper's purse. But rewatching the fight it was obvious Cooper was badly hurt and was heading for a bad beating.

Granted, Cooper was always an undisciplined fighter with raw talent he'd rarely be able to exploit. But that first right hook to Cooper's body was brutal and literally knocked Cooper sideways a couple of feet. It looked like a rib-breaker. And Foreman kept battering Cooper's body after that. Cooper did his best to try some lateral movement in the first round, but he looked like a middleweight against a heavyweight, and Foreman broke him down so quickly it was frightening.

Cooper might have lasted one more round before the inevitable end, and he might have suffered irrecoverable injuries.

Foreman was devastating against shorter opponents, which is why it was no exaggeration in the slightest when Big George said he'd have finished Mike Tyson in two rounds. And while I don't recall Foreman ever commenting about Marciano, I'd give Rocky no more than five rounds against Big George. Just a matter of styles. Gregorio Peralta was the only "short" fighter (at 6') who gave Foreman some trouble, and that was because he boxed and didn't engage Foreman directly in their first bout. It would take a short southpaw with the quickness and lateral movement of a Pacquiao (as trained by Freddie Roach) to beat Foreman.
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-03-16, 06:06 AM
  #131  
deapee
Ride On!
 
deapee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 970

Bikes: Allez DSW SL Sprint | Fuji Cross

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I used to be a boxing fan when I was young...but I found I was waiting around for "action" a lot -- sometimes for 12 rounds and nothing ever materialized. Along came MMA and it seemed more action-packed and almost 'guaranteed' more exciting moments in a night than boxing did. I guess I'd still be a fan of boxing but I haven't really watched either in quite a long while to be honest.
deapee is offline  
Old 07-03-16, 09:42 AM
  #132  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yeah, Freddie Brown is among those invisible men who didn't get the credit he'd earned for contributing to the successes of boxers he mentored. This is among the articles that seems to dig behind the scenes.


Then I stand corrected. I always knew who Arcel was but not Freddie Brown who I had mistaken for another cornerman who was probably a Panamanian translator. Arcel is the guy who looks to be about 120 years old and Brown is another older Jewish guy.

Sometimes assistants and corner men don't get the recognition they deserve. One notable example was Shane Mosley's final IBF lightweight title defense in 1999, against John Brown, one of those little pocket rockets who fought better than his stature should have allowed.

Brown's main trainer or manager -- I don't recall his name now -- completely lost his composure as the fight wore on. Maybe he was too emotionally wrapped up in Brown, regarding him as a proxy son. But he couldn't handle the beating Brown was taking from Mosley. The trainer/manager was freaking out between rounds, way too emotional, and actually quit during the fight, leaving Brown to the care of his corner men. It was a hopeless mismatch but Brown fought valiantly. No shame in losing to Mosley, one of the all time great ring craftsmen. But Brown's own manager/trainer failed him. Shades of post-Cus D'amato Mike Tyson, hmm?

I could relate in a very minor way. I never had a decent trainer/corner man until I'd already been an amateur boxer for several years. My trainers were clueless doofuses who mostly wanted to hang around the gym shooting the bull with their buddies. I can't recall a single bit of advice from them, other than "quit dancing around so much", which was the worst possible advice I'd ever been given. It wasn't until I re-learned lateral movement and quick juking around that I became a better defensive boxer. My only decent trainer was an experienced guy in Washington DC who knew Sugar Ray Leonard, Johnny Gant and some of those great DC area boxers. I was already in my early 20s but he finally taught me some of the fundamentals I'd been missing all those years. And he was the first trainer I had who emphasized body work -- both offensive and defensive. After I moved from his area and no longer had a decent trainer I quit amateur boxing. I knew it was pointless without solid guidance from an experienced guy with a cool head.
I've heard some outright doofus things coming from corners alright. I guess I won't mention but one more name than the one I already have but Pavlik has someone else in his corner now. That probably should have quietly happened much sooner but I understand the instinct to stay loyal to someone who brought you to where you got to....If not vice versa.

I once heard Freddie Roach ask one of his fighters one of the most astounding things: He asked him if he was tired. Even I know better than that. It's something better asked of the opposing fighter if he happens to walk to your corner at round's end by mistake. Not that Roach doesn't have a lot of boxing savvy and that I'd have what it takes to even tote water bottles for him but that surprised me.

Last edited by Zinger; 07-03-16 at 09:47 AM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-03-16, 12:55 PM
  #133  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
Some guys (and gals) are better gym trainers than corner men, and vice versa.

Nacho Beristain may be a great gym trainer and strategist, but I've never heard a single useful comment from Juan Manuel Marquez' corner men in his bouts. It's all generic stuff, and they often miss some obvious stuff the opponent is doing. So credit for his successful career has to go to Marquez himself for his outstanding adaptability during a fight, and good preparation.

Ronnie Shields has always surprised me because he's so loud and profane during bouts. I saw him many times as a teenager in Texas amateur bouts and he always seemed like a low key, quiet, sleepy-eyed kid (with a helluva punch - scariest KO I've ever seen in the amateurs was by Shields against a good Arkansas amateur light-welter). He's probably a good gym trainer but as a boxer I wouldn't want a corner man shouting and cussing all the time.

Roach is an outstanding gym trainer and strategist. There aren't many better in history. He completely revamped Pacquiao's style and turned him from a blistering-fast, straight-ahead, one-two jab-straight left one-trick pony into a well rounded fighter with lateral movement and deceptively effective inside punching. And Roach deserves at least some credit for James Toney's late career successes, if only because Toney would do nothing other than sparring. And usually Roach says useful stuff between rounds, although he doesn't seem to stay on top of Pacquiao during bouts to remind him to mix it up and not revert to his old, predictable style -- which is what led to being kayoed by Marquez. But outside the gym and ring Roach is obnoxious, belligerent and generally makes even the worst trash-talking fighters seem diplomatic.

I find it hard to watch some bouts because I'm grumbling about the idiots in the corner. Nothing drives me more bonkers than seeing a tall, rangy, quick guy with a good jab lapsing into infighting and crouching to match his shorter opponent -- only to hear the corner men saying generic stuff like "You're doing fine, keep it up, he's getting tired, blah-blah-blah." I keep wanting to put on my best George Foreman impression and yell "Fight tall! Quit wasting that height and reach!"
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-03-16, 10:03 PM
  #134  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Roach is an outstanding gym trainer and strategist. There aren't many better in history. He completely revamped Pacquiao's style and turned him from a blistering-fast, straight-ahead, one-two jab-straight left one-trick pony into a well rounded fighter with lateral movement and deceptively effective inside punching. And Roach deserves at least some credit for James Toney's late career successes, if only because Toney would do nothing other than sparring. And usually Roach says useful stuff between rounds, although he doesn't seem to stay on top of Pacquiao during bouts to remind him to mix it up and not revert to his old, predictable style -- which is what led to being kayoed by Marquez. But outside the gym and ring Roach is obnoxious, belligerent and generally makes even the worst trash-talking fighters seem diplomatic.

That's why it surprised me to hear something like that out of Roach. Even if someone had never heard not to ask your fighter if he were tired or not good instincts should be telling you not to. But that's the only thing like that I've ever heard out of Roach and the rest seemed sound.

I've always heard sound stuff out of Naazim Richardson in the corner. I would put him at the top of my list of best contemporary trainers.

I'll hold off on any opinions about Buddy McGirt but as a fan of Paulie Malignaggi I sure appreciated him throwing the towel on his Hatton fight even if Paulie didn't. Paulie had gotten his hand out of a cast two weeks before fight time. That's the only reason that Paulie got a Hatton fight for a cool million dollars. He had absolutely no right hand to set down on in that fight. It might be a feat unto itself to survive a fight with one hand that one wasn't easy to look at. I know Buddy couldn't stand to watch it any longer and neither could I, lol.

Malignaggi redeemed himself with his fights with Diaz. The decision in the first one should have gone his way as well. The win over past prime Zab Judah looks good on his Boxrec but I didn't see it. He's always going to be a guy who loses the big ones but surprises with wins over others. But he still ought to retire, if he hasn't already, and be happy behind a mic. His style of boxing isn't usually selling seats in the contemporary era when it has to compete with MMA and he was somewhat talented at selling them.


I can easily live with that "growing up Gatti" Brooklyn attitude of Paulie's but those trunks scare me a little as did Hector Camacho's. I suppose they aren't any worse than those "Victorian age" trunks that they used to show their butts off with though. They didn't allow women into those smokers back then either so they'd better have had the good sense to (choose my words carefully here, lol) evolve out of that style of boxing trunks.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-30-17 at 04:16 AM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-05-16, 02:24 AM
  #135  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
Paulie was a heckuva slick boxer and is a sharp commentator.

In an earlier era he might have done better, with referees who didn't constantly interfere with fights. In the post-Ali era, referees began continually interfering with traditional subtle grappling and defensive tactics that are essential to the slick boxer. Over the past two or three decades the refs have twisted boxing into either mindless slugfests or pitty-pat-and-run-away amateur style fist-fencing.

Unless the boxer has enough marketing clout to determine certain conditions -- someone like Mayweather -- we're stuck with Mike Tyson wannabes (mostly doing a bad impression of the post-D'Amato era Tyson, after he forgot defense and how to set up punches).

If I had my druthers the entire sport would be revamped to minimize interference from referees, and to eliminate the standing 8 count. We need standardized rules across the game.

It's frustrating to watch so many boxers with good potential ruined by interfering referees. I can think of at least two Zahir Raheem bouts in which two different refs interfered so much with Raheem that he couldn't fight his game.

Then there are those refs who can't seem to spot a deliberate head butt, low blow, or forearm/elbow raking, but get bent out of shape if a mouthpiece falls out, or if two fighters are physically in contact with anything other than the white scoring part of the glove.

The standing 8 count only serves to prolong the punishment and risk further damage to stunned fighters. If a boxer lacks the presence of mind to take a knee until the count reaches 8, and to take full advantage of recuperative tricks such as putting the ref between himself and the opponent after rising, then the fight should be stopped.

Most of all, I'd ban those celebrity referees and their idiotic catch phrases. No more of that "Let's git it on!" or "I'm firm but I'm fair" posturing. A ref should be invisible and silent unless absolutely necessary and, above all, competent.

/rant
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-09-16, 03:20 PM
  #136  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts

A good back and forth war involving then-fast-rising Puerto Rican star Miguel Cotto in the Junior Welterweight division that I got to see as it happened. George Foreman shares in the commentary.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-30-17 at 04:16 AM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-09-16, 05:40 PM
  #137  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
I remember those Cotto bouts. While he was a good, well rounded boxer/puncher, I felt he was a bit overrated and still do. His most serious early challenge came against Lovemore N'Dou, who had Cotto backing up and boxing defensively after Cotto realized he couldn't even hurt N'Dou, let alone blast him out like he'd been accustomed to with lesser fighters.

To his credit at least Cotto had enough ring savvy to change tactics mid-game and box defensively to win the decision. But I had a feeling he'd be over his head at welter and light-middle against top tier opponents. Most of his notable victories since light-welter have come against opponents who were past their prime.

But I like Cotto's spirit. His comeback from the Margarito beating was admirable. Many fighters have never been the same after such devastating losses, especially when they've been cheated somehow. Zahir Raheem is a notable example. Much as I liked Raheem's classic slickster style, he seemed to lack that indomitable spirit and dwelled too much on that loss to Juarez, bad judges and worse referees.
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-10-16, 07:22 PM
  #138  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
BTW, since you posted links to Lee Wylie's excellent analytical boxing videos I've been looking for similar channels. So far I haven't found any better than Lee Wylie's, but have found a couple that are very good.

Here's one that examines Golovkin's style and puts it into better perspective than I had done. I tended to regard Golovkin as a swarmer who threw wide punches and squared off to throw hooks and arcing punches with both hands. But this video describes it as more of a deliberate, well schooled technique of shifting to keep opponents off balance.

While I wouldn't put Golovkin on the same level as Marvin Hagler (possibly history's best at this technique), or Duran, it does give me another way of seeing GGG. I still think Golovkin's style could be exploited by a straight shooter with good footwork -- same way Sugar Ray Leonard beat both Hagler (barely) and Duran. Golovkin seems to square off too often, throwing too many wide shots -- something Hagler rarely did. But GGG hasn't yet faced an opponent who could exploit this. Andre Ward could, but that's not a fair matchup given Ward's advantage in size and experience against tough brawlers who are bigger than Golovkin. I can't think of anyone currently in middleweight good enough to be a sure bet against GGG, and even Canelo would need to discipline himself to consistently box smart and not get suckered into a brawl.

canklecat is offline  
Old 07-12-16, 03:25 AM
  #139  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
BTW, since you posted links to Lee Wylie's excellent analytical boxing videos I've been looking for similar channels. So far I haven't found any better than Lee Wylie's, but have found a couple that are very good.

Here's one that examines Golovkin's style and puts it into better perspective than I had done. I tended to regard Golovkin as a swarmer who threw wide punches and squared off to throw hooks and arcing punches with both hands. But this video describes it as more of a deliberate, well schooled technique of shifting to keep opponents off balance.

While I wouldn't put Golovkin on the same level as Marvin Hagler (possibly history's best at this technique), or Duran, it does give me another way of seeing GGG. I still think Golovkin's style could be exploited by a straight shooter with good footwork -- same way Sugar Ray Leonard beat both Hagler (barely) and Duran. Golovkin seems to square off too often, throwing too many wide shots -- something Hagler rarely did. But GGG hasn't yet faced an opponent who could exploit this. Andre Ward could, but that's not a fair matchup given Ward's advantage in size and experience against tough brawlers who are bigger than Golovkin. I can't think of anyone currently in middleweight good enough to be a sure bet against GGG, and even Canelo would need to discipline himself to consistently box smart and not get suckered into a brawl.

"Gennady Golovkin -- The Lost Art of Shifting"
Yeah that "shifting" or trading orthadox / southpaw leads is also very good at cutting off the ring. GGG is exceptional at that. He doesn't always manage to place his head out of position to get hit though. He gets hit a little too much. I don't believe he can walk thru everybody's best stuff like he did with Murray and Geale. He has fought some guys at 160 with around 70% KO records but if I were in his camp I'd be scheduling some non title fights with guys in the next division up just so he could be reminded that he can be buzzed when he gets in there with the right puncher. Otherwise he's going to get his surprise from Opie with all the titles at 160 on the line.

That's what Duran's handlers used to do and I think it made a huge impression on Roberto to influence him towards better defensive skills. Maybe Arthur Abraham, Chavez Jr., Fedor Chudinov, Rogelio Medina or just anybody like that at 168 who might want a payday for a non title fight with a gate draw middleweight.

I would have said Pavlik but he's not on anybody's map any more.

Boxing Rankings | WBC, WBA, WBO, IBF | Fightnews

And while I'm talking about Pavlik, I think that sledge hammering on truck tires that they had him doing when they tried to campaign him at 168 was all wrong for him.....maybe even detrimental to his punching power which comes from fast sharp well timed leverage punches and not from bulking up. I'd stick to moderate weight dumbbell press routines with this guy......Just my two cents from the cheap seats.


The punch that he reeled Taylor with isn't the one they showed on the replay. It was the slightly earlier one at about 4:20 of this video while Merchant was jabbering away totally oblivious to what had just happened. All in the leverage and perfect distance and timing. He had a better pound for pound KO record at middleweight than any of those guys I mentioned as suggested non title opponents for GGG.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-30-17 at 04:16 AM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-12-16, 04:57 PM
  #140  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
Yeah, Pavlik was/is one of those classic underachievers. We'll always wonder what he might have accomplished. But that seems to be the risk for all boxers who grow up gently in the midwest and other regional club scenes. They're rarely really tested and they seem to become mentally discombobulated the first time they get whupped by a crafty veteran of the big city gyms. I'd hoped Hopkins' schooling of Pavlik would motivate him to become better, but it didn't work out that way.

Speaking of Hopkins, imagine a matchup between GGG and a prime Hopkins. I'd bet on Hopkins for a decision, but probably not an easy one. As good as Hopkins was at middleweight, he was unfortunate to dominate the division in an era of relatively weak opposition.

Agreed about GGG stepping up in weight class, and learning a few tricks the way Duran did when he fought above his ideal weight. No point in whining about middles and light middles ducking him -- which is true. Meanwhile, GGG's prime years are slipping by while he tries to negotiate for a big payday. He may deserve an all-time great spot alongside guys like Tony Zale, Fullmer, LaMotta and others. But he'll need to earn it by taking chances, not by coasting against inferior opponents and hoping for the big payday matches.

I wonder whether Golovkin spars bigger guys routinely in the gym? Reportedly that's why Duran handled himself so well above his natural weight. From the time he was a lightweight he sparred bigger guys, mostly because sparring partners his size kept getting blown out. I was such a fan of Duran from the first time I saw him (against Lampkin), I started sparring bigger amateurs. When I was a lightweight and light-welter I mostly sparred welters and middleweights. Can't say it made me a better boxer -- it probably made me more reckless -- but I knew I could handle anyone's punches. Problem was, I'd get outslicked by crafty guys my own size in actual matches!
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-12-16, 10:31 PM
  #141  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yeah, Pavlik was/is one of those classic underachievers. We'll always wonder what he might have accomplished. But that seems to be the risk for all boxers who grow up gently in the midwest and other regional club scenes. They're rarely really tested and they seem to become mentally discombobulated the first time they get whupped by a crafty veteran of the big city gyms. I'd hoped Hopkins' schooling of Pavlik would motivate him to become better, but it didn't work out that way.

First I noticed of Pavlik was when he upset up and coming Edison Miranda with this beat-down.

I think the only thing setting Pavlik back was lack of a savvy manager / trainer from one of those aforementioned big city Gyms. Getting schooled by crafty ring generals might have been avoided until the Sergio Martinez fight if he had been matched with guys he didn't have to worry about not being in front of him accessible to hit. He could have made his legacy in sure-classic wars with a weight drained Arthur Abraham at 160, Peter Quillin or Anthony Mundine. Save the boxing lesson for when it becomes a mandatory title defense.

Speaking of being weight drained, Cotto took punches much better at 147 than he ever did at 140. He was in a struggle with the scales constantly at 140. I know he got rocked by Zab Judah at welterweight though......Because he hit Zab low right back twice and apologized twice while Zab was convulsing in pain on the canvas, lol.......Always the gentleman that Cotto. When Cotto said he "was sorry".....twice, the referee should have asked: "But are you really?" For the record I suspect he wasn't.

...........................................NSFW lingo


Live by the low blow, die by the low blow though.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-30-17 at 04:17 AM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-15-16, 11:31 PM
  #142  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
Wow, I'd forgotten some details of both of those bouts.

Edison Miranda was an exciting power puncher, but had zero adaptability. Another guy who may have benefited from more savvy training. He had that deer-in-the-headlights reaction to Pavlik that so many of Tommy Hearns' opponents had when they realized his reach was nearly impenetrable.

But imagine Miranda's power combined with Rodrigo Valdez' ring savvy? And Valdez was no slouch in the punching department.

And I'd forgotten how blatant Zab Judah's low blow was. For some reason I seemed to recall it as an accident, but it's pretty clear now it was a mental meltdown. Too bad, because Judah was among the tiny handful of boxers who could give Mayweather trouble in his prime. But Judah was both incredibly talented and notoriously inconsistent.

Speaking of talented but inconsistent fighters prone to mental meltdowns, how 'bout that Andrew Golota and his spectesticular blowout against Riddick Bowe. I still rewatch that fight once in awhile just for the sheer outrageous entertainment value.

Not quite on par with the slick dirty fighters, like Felix Trinidad, Bernard Hopkins, Evander Holyfield, Floyd Mayweather Jr., and a few others.

I don't know why most of those guys didn't bother me with their tactics, but Trinidad got on my nerves. He seemed to get away with way too much -- raking forearms, elbows, etc. That bothered me more than his favorite recovery tactic -- when Trinidad was stunned or knocked down, he'd immediately go for the low blow or foul to give himself more time to recovery. To me, that's just clever tactics, and the opponent should be ready for it. But Felix got away with way too much hammering opponents' faces with his forearms and elbows.

Mayweather occasionally got carried away with the forearm raking, but not nearly as bad as Trinidad.

With Holyfield and Hopkins, I was never sure what to make of their head butts. Sometimes I'd convince myself they weren't really billy-goating, but just coming in with their heads low to protect their jaws. So it was up to the opponent to adapt. For example, Carlos Monzon faced a lot of billy goats and he adapted by moving his head in clinches and infighting. But Holyfield and Hopkins really rattled a lot of opponents psychologically with their skulls. And that grotesque swelling Hasim Rahman suffered -- I've rewatched that bout a few times and still can't see Holyfield doing anything different from his usual tactics. It seemed like an "accident", although Holyfield's head position was always an accident looking for a place to happen.
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 09:33 AM
  #143  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post

And I'd forgotten how blatant Zab Judah's low blow was. For some reason I seemed to recall it as an accident, but it's pretty clear now it was a mental meltdown. Too bad, because Judah was among the tiny handful of boxers who could give Mayweather trouble in his prime. But Judah was both incredibly talented and notoriously inconsistent.

Not quite on par with the slick dirty fighters, like Felix Trinidad, Bernard Hopkins, Evander Holyfield, Floyd Mayweather Jr., and a few others.
Zab and Floyd were kind of kindred spirits if not quite friends. The pre fight hype was low key and superficial. But when Floyd saw Zab flinch with those body shots he went on a mission to silence his critics by taking Zab out earlier than the judges call with a very intense focused and sustained painful body attack. I was predicting he would and had no takers for such a wager among our PPV party before all hell broke out at the Thomas & Mack Center in Las Vegas. I think Zab took it a bit personal and wanted the "brother" to give him a break.

I had to laugh at RJJ's and Lampley's subtle insinuative humor at pointing out that the rabbit punch was suspiciously convenient in following up a low blow, providing that low blow weren't as obviously intentional as it looked.

And it did serve the purpose of convincing Floyd to abandon that body attack KO goal thereafter, thus giving the "brother" a break. Floyd hired him for a southpaw sparring partner for the Pacquiao fight.

I don't know why most of those guys didn't bother me with their tactics, but Trinidad got on my nerves. He seemed to get away with way too much -- raking forearms, elbows, etc. That bothered me more than his favorite recovery tactic -- when Trinidad was stunned or knocked down, he'd immediately go for the low blow or foul to give himself more time to recovery. To me, that's just clever tactics, and the opponent should be ready for it. But Felix got away with way too much hammering opponents' faces with his forearms and elbows.
It is advantageous to have the bartering power in your handlers benefit so as to determine the referee.....Some things never change much.

Mayweather occasionally got carried away with the forearm raking, but not nearly as bad as Trinidad.

Floyd's ring encounter with Arturo Gatti was a study in:

Hitting on the break and hitting and holding when standing in the way of the referee's line of sight.

Why the referee says "protect yourself at all times."

Repeated body blocking (accidentally of course ) to tip your opponent off balance so as to open him up for quickly following that up with combinations.

Why inside-the-pocket and in-Floyd's-face pressure fighting (never seen here) is the right way to trouble Floyd and trying to box with him is not. If Arturo had gotten inside like Hatton occasionally did on the ropes he would have tasted some half hidden elbows like Hatton did.

And with apologies to my Italian friends.....Just some damned purty ring work if not always legally kosher.

With Holyfield and Hopkins, I was never sure what to make of their head butts. Sometimes I'd convince myself they weren't really billy-goating, but just coming in with their heads low to protect their jaws.


Headbutts have been an "accidental" part of boxing probably since boxing began. The Hammerheads (as in my avatar) in the original Wizard of Oz book over a century ago wore the attire of the boxing cornermen of the day. The fact that they were part of the popular culture evidences how popular a spectator sport boxing was back then......and that headbutting was an inevitable byproduct.


BHop's strategy in the Winky Wright fight must certainly have been inspired by Killer Willard of this video that made the rounds in boxing forums following, and in tribute to, that very dirty rough house tainted fight.



Kind of resembles him in appearance too.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-30-17 at 04:17 AM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-17-16, 12:13 PM
  #144  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
Winky Wright! That guy was great. Old school craft and contemporary flash. Always enjoyed watching him. It was incredible how he exposed and exploited the flaws in so many great fighters like Mosley and Trinidad. I thought he'd have done better against Hopkins if Wright had kept his weight down closer to 160. His quickness and timing were off with the extra weight. Personally I don't think fighters should be required or even expected to meet a minimum weight to fight above their usual class. Let 'em fight where they're sharpest.

That kangaroo video annoyed me. I don't know why but kangaroos just piss me off. Good thing I'm not in Australia. I quit hunting many years ago but I'd reconsider for kangaroos. Giant rodents with a crappy attitude.
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-17-16, 01:30 PM
  #145  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts

My first look at a young Felix Trinidad winning the IBF welterweight title.


Just a shutout schooling of the dangerous punching Puerto Rican. I loved it even more than the Hopkins win over Trinidad.

I was hoping they wouldn't put Pavlik in with a 36 year old Winky Wright. Well at least they didn't do that. I too liked Winky and remember posting an article on Lance Armstrong's comeback in a Winky Wright comeback thread in HBO's forums and saying that 36 years old is not yet the end of life. And then I blew my chance at winning on of the pick 'em threads by some knowingly unrealistic picking of him over Hopkins (I forget the details), along with another of Winky's fans because we knew from his camp that he had been perusing the forum threads on him. I was a good fan.

They say that lacing the gloves on Kangaroos is cruelty and he certainly committed some of that onto his "handler" alright. He was the only one of the two of them having fun with it.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-14-18 at 02:33 PM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-17-16, 04:59 PM
  #146  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
I know Winky was irritated with Hopkins over BHop's familiar dirty tactics. But even a clean fighting Hopkins (it happened, once in awhile, notably against Trinidad where Hopkins fought what may have been the cleanest of his long career) would have beaten Winky. Among Wright's very few vulnerabilities was his openness to uppercuts, and Hopkins exploited that masterfully. Also, Hopkins was the classic tight inside fighter, with sharp, short punches that stayed within the borders of his own shoulders. That was the only way to beat Winky, who tended to be a bit loosey-goosey, and often left only uppercuts available through his earmuff defense.

And Winky had fairly broad shoulders for his height, which I learned as an amateur wasn't really an asset. It might make for a great beach physique, but it can create too much of a turn radius for boxers. Too easy to spot for a master like Hopkins (who has rather narrow shoulders, which serves his tight insider sharpshooting style). While Winky's outstanding jab was usually effective, he couldn't seem to consistently land his left cross power shots, and as the fight wore on Hopkins seemed to beat him to the punch with uppercuts and short counters.

I remember admiring a local boxer, Overton Brooks (same family as Monroe Brooks), who had unusually wide shoulders. He was a handsome specimen and good amateur, but I remember being surprised the first time I saw him being outslicked with tight, straight, inside punches. I don't remember whether than was against Bruce Curry or another local favorite.

Speaking of Bruce Curry, here's an exceptionally good bit of boxing journalism from 1985. I really felt like Richard Hoffer did a good job of trying to make sense of what happened to Curry (with whom I was acquainted from high school and boxing, but didn't really know well - I'm not sure anyone did, in the end).
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-23-16, 06:17 PM
  #147  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts

Five time World Welterweight champion and twice World Middleweight champion Emile Griffith passed away on the 23rd.

The Ring Magazine Fighter of the Year for 1964

If any of you never knew anything about Griffith but were aware of his era in the '60s you will likely find this documentary linked above a fascinating surprise as I found some of this personal information to be upon watching it's producer interviewed by Chris Matthews on MSNBC when it first came out. And I thought it an excellently done account of his life to boot......Better watch it while it's still up and hassle free if you're gonna. Rare find.

RIP

And the audio was up on this but now it's working only on the tube so just double click on it and you're there.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-30-17 at 04:18 AM.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-23-16, 07:38 PM
  #148  
Zinger
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,554

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Andre Ward vs Sergey Kovalev lightheavyweight fight on the 26th of November is bound to be good. Excellent pick-em matchup in this one and the odds that I'm seeing so far are reflecting that as dead even. I have very little idea who I might pick in this one and that's rare for me. I'm probably gonna go back and forth on it for awhile and that's probably a sign for me to hold off on any wagers. But a move up in weight for Ward and 84% KOs for the Russian has me considering Sergey for a few bucks for now just to keep it even more interesting. No internet bets for me.

Three of the too many belts on the line in this one, WBA Super, for whatever another intermediate belt is worth, WBO and funky old Don King corrupted IBF. But this matchup is a winner and I'm gonna hafta look up ex coworkers to split the PPV for this one.

No undercard speculations yet at this early date. I'll post 'em as they're made and I learn of them.
Zinger is offline  
Old 07-24-16, 02:00 AM
  #149  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
Emile died in July about three years ago. I remember I had just watched Ring of Fire when he died a few days later.

Very underrated champion, fighting at middleweight -- mostly successfully -- above his natural size and beyond his peak years. His bouts against Benvenuti were among the last of his physical peak and showed how tough Griffith was. Benvenuti was physically bigger and stronger and roughhoused Griffith in their first match, but Emile adapted to beat him in their second.

I'd like to believe that Griffith felt somewhat vindicated or relieved by the fact that Kid Paret's death was mostly caused by the cumulative damage of too many brutal fights above Paret's weight class, particularly his loss to Fullmer. But that death changed Emile's style and he became more of a cute, slick boxer, willing to go up and down in weight from welter to middleweight -- no catchweights or other demands of concessions.

Incidentally, that's also what made Monzon's win over Benvenuti so impressive. Nino combined the aspects of a tall, classic European style boxer with the physical strength and roughhousing tactics of a brawler -- yet Monzon dominated him at this very game, bouncing Nino around the ring, cuffing him with annoying short shots to the sides of the head during infighting and attempted clinches (Monzon rarely allowed opponents to clinch -- he'd cuff 'em and bop their heads with repeated short punches that verged on rabbit punches). Both Benvenuti and Monzon fought like schoolyard bullies but Monzon was better at it.
canklecat is offline  
Old 07-24-16, 02:06 AM
  #150  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,891

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 298 Posts
I haven't seen enough of Kovalev to decide, but I'm inclined to go with Ward. Andre has a knack for playing the spoiler and disrupting the techniques of brawlers and punchers.
canklecat is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.