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1x versus 2x for old 26" MTB build

Old 02-25-21, 03:39 PM
  #26  
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I think the weight savings being quoted here are way too optomistic if comparing similar levels of components. Lets look at XT 2x10 and 1x11

You will gain weight in the cassettes:
---11-36 10sp ~330g
---11-46 11 sp ~439g
So you gain ~ 110g there

You will lose weight at the crank:
---FC-M7100-1 (32t, 175mm): 631g
---FC-M7100-2 (26-36t, 175mm): 674g
You lose 43g there

Things that go away:
---XT front der: 146g
---XT front shifter 122g
---Cable and housing: guessing ~70g
So you lose 338g of stuff

So this has you netting a ~271g weight loss. So this back-of-the-napkin estimate is around 0.6 lbs.

These weights are taken from a variety of sources that I have not completely vetted. If someone has better number to plug in here, have at.
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Old 02-25-21, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by milesf View Post
My understanding was that a 1x was usually about a pound lighter, much more reliable, and slightly more efficient as long as you are able to get a wide range of gears on the rear cassete.
Its not more or less reliable than 2x or 3x systems. The whole premise is based on simplification. 1x gets rid of shifter, derailleur, cable and a chain ring...4 less things that need to be maintained or replaced. And with only one derailleur to shift, converting to a 1x drivetrain results in simpler more efficient gearing. You maintain your gear range and eliminate gearing overlap and redundancy that were common with 2x and 3x systems.

As far as weight savings...wheels are where you'll notice the weight savings. Eating one less bag of chips per week will be the same as tossing a 2x or 3x system.

Last edited by prj71; 02-25-21 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 02-25-21, 07:36 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
These weights are taken from a variety of sources that I have not completely vetted. If someone has better number to plug in here, have at.
It will be a lot worse than this at a lower price point than XT. I know I'm repeating myself but the weight of the cheap cassettes is astonishing. M6100 is 596g, SX is 615g! So, a wash or worse. The cheapest 1x groupsets also have solid spindles while the most expensive ones have carbon arms. That's the other major weight difference. Between SX and XO1 there's -9 ounces in the cassette and -17 ounces in the crankset+BB. The shifters and chains are about the same, there's a few ounces in the RD.
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Old 02-25-21, 07:51 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
It will be a lot worse than this at a lower price point than XT. I know I'm repeating myself but the weight of the cheap cassettes is astonishing. M6100 is 596g, SX is 615g! So, a wash or worse. The cheapest 1x groupsets also have solid spindles while the most expensive ones have carbon arms. That's the other major weight difference. Between SX and XO1 there's -9 ounces in the cassette and -17 ounces in the crankset+BB. The shifters and chains are about the same, there's a few ounces in the RD.
By "worse" you mean less weight savings going to 1X?
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Old 02-26-21, 09:40 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
The real reason to do 1x11 or 12, the reason it so quickly gained popularity and SRAM beat out Shimano for a few years, is that front shifting sucks. There are other reasons too that have to do with rear suspension but that's not relevant to conversions. The premium 1x systems are lighter but they depend on very clever and expensive cassettes to get there, and you need a different rear hub. In the "refurbishing old MTB" price range, the cassettes weigh well north of a pound, pretty much eating any weight savings, and you need the right chain ring too so you are looking at approaching $200 range to convert if you buy all new parts. I'm not saying no! I put 1x on my old tandem and it makes me very happy. But not for weight.

If you really want weight savings from the drivetrain, 1x1. If you can tolerate a pretty short gear range for your 1x, I think you can still get XT 10 speed 11-36 cassettes and Zee shifty bits, but I think the lightweight 9 speed cassettes are gone
SLX microspline cassettes are not that expensive. Around 70€ here. It's more expensive than an old 3x cassete for sure, but when you consider the price of replacing chainrings, cassette and chain, it ends up being cheaper.

That being said, I don't agree about front shifting sucking, and I have several unresolved minor issues with my "new" 12sp bike that a 3x didn't have. Mainly, bad gear spacing on higher gears and lack of range.

Originally Posted by FastJake View Post
I've avoided Microshift as it always seemed like cheap knockoff stuff, but it's been years since I've built up a MTB. Sounds like this is worth considering. It certainly checks all the boxes.
I rode a road bike with a Microshift R8 triple drivetrain and it was harsh when shifting and the paddle and brake feeling was mediocre, but it worked well for 7000km with no significant issues. Considering the bike cost me 399€ new, I can only say good things about it.
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Old 02-26-21, 11:01 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
That being said, I don't agree about front shifting sucking, and I have several unresolved minor issues with my "new" 12sp bike that a 3x didn't have. Mainly, bad gear spacing on higher gears and lack of range.
Bad gear spacing? Lack of Range?

Please explain.
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Old 02-27-21, 10:09 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Bad gear spacing? Lack of Range?

Please explain.
Since he is talking about high end, I think it is the 10-12-14 gapping of 12 speed cassettes and not the 11-12-14 that is found on 9/10 speed cassettes.

Range on a 22-32-42 triple will be greater than a 1x12 if you want a top end comparable with a 42-11. You would have run a 38t chainring and the 38:51 is not as low as a 22:32.

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Old 02-27-21, 12:27 PM
  #33  
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I thought I'd written this earlier... anyhow.

The 10t-12t shift is a big one, 20%, but that's a very high gear and likely not the cause of complaint. The 16t-18t-21t sequence puts a really short shift next to a tall one, right in the middle of your gears, that sort of thing is pretty noticeable.

If you nerd out on these things you can see the designers are always trying to put the tooth-jump transition in the most benign place they can and also retain already-designed shift sequences (especially the ones around 28t,32t) that date back decades to avoid having to design new ramps. On the 11 speed cassettes SRAM and Sunrace both hung onto the 36t and added 42. Shimano kindly gave us a 37t. The Shimano 11-46 was really ugly, the Sunrace one was ok. The smoothest 11-46 would have started with the Shimano 9x11-34 sequence with 39, 46 added on, but no one made that.
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Old 02-27-21, 08:13 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I think the weight savings being quoted here are way too optomistic if comparing similar levels of components. Lets look at XT 2x10 and 1x11

You will gain weight in the cassettes:
---11-36 10sp ~330g
---11-46 11 sp ~439g
So you gain ~ 110g there

You will lose weight at the crank:
---FC-M7100-1 (32t, 175mm): 631g
---FC-M7100-2 (26-36t, 175mm): 674g
You lose 43g there

Things that go away:
---XT front der: 146g
---XT front shifter 122g
---Cable and housing: guessing ~70g
So you lose 338g of stuff

So this has you netting a ~271g weight loss. So this back-of-the-napkin estimate is around 0.6 lbs.

These weights are taken from a variety of sources that I have not completely vetted. If someone has better number to plug in here, have at.
Thanks! This is what I was curious about. I need to do more reading on that Microshift group and compare everything to my old 2x8 stuff.
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Old 03-01-21, 04:52 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
The 10t-12t shift is a big one, 20%, but that's a very high gear and likely not the cause of complaint. The 16t-18t-21t sequence puts a really short shift next to a tall one, right in the middle of your gears, that sort of thing is pretty noticeable.
I'm complaining about the 10t-12t jump, mainly, and the lack of range.

If you want the 22-32 equivalent on 26" wheels on a 29" 1x12 bike, you need a 30 chainring coupled with a 51 sprocket. That means that when it's flattish, I'm constantly debating between a too fast cadence on the 12t, or too slow on the 10.

Moreover, pedalling at 40+ km/h with a 30t chainring is uncomfortable. Over that speed is pointless. My max speed on my 26" on most rides was always near or slightly above 60kph. I simply can't reach that speeds with my 1x12 bike unless it can be done without pedalling.

My old 3x9 bike didn't have any of these issues. And don't get me started on the big sprocket jump on SRAM cassettes.
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Old 03-01-21, 06:20 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
I'm complaining about the 10t-12t jump, mainly, and the lack of range.

If you want the 22-32 equivalent on 26" wheels on a 29" 1x12 bike, you need a 30 chainring coupled with a 51 sprocket. That means that when it's flattish, I'm constantly debating between a too fast cadence on the 12t, or too slow on the 10.

Moreover, pedalling at 40+ km/h with a 30t chainring is uncomfortable. Over that speed is pointless. My max speed on my 26" on most rides was always near or slightly above 60kph. I simply can't reach that speeds with my 1x12 bike unless it can be done without pedalling.

My old 3x9 bike didn't have any of these issues. And don't get me started on the big sprocket jump on SRAM cassettes.
I am guessing you spent more time on the road with your bike than what most MTBs are designed for. More than I do at least.

The issues you describe are why I would not go 1x on my gravel or road bike. At least not until they get to around 14 gears in the back.

But for trail riding I have little need for the tighter gear spacing, in fact I prefer the wider spacing. Tighter spacing just means I am often shifting a more gears at a time when i do shift.

As far as the high end.... I started dropping the big ring off my 3x cranks on my MTBs 20 years ago. The only time I spin out 32/11 is on pavement or a dirt road. And in those cases I really donít care. Between the fat meaty tires at low pressures and the aerodynamics of a barn door, I just assume coast at that point rather than killing myself for an extra 2 mph for a 30 second stretch.

On single track, the times I COULD spin out 32/11 are when the trail is steep enough that I donít need to pedal anyway. It is my brakes that decide how fast I am going.

If I were to set up an MTB that also needs to spend a long time on pavement/gravel, Iíd be looking at 2x.
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Old 03-01-21, 06:39 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I am guessing you spent more time on the road with your bike than what most MTBs are designed for. More than I do at least.

The issues you describe are why I would not go 1x on my gravel or road bike. At least not until they get to around 14 gears in the back.

But for trail riding I have little need for the tighter gear spacing, in fact I prefer the wider spacing. Tighter spacing just means I am often shifting a more gears at a time when i do shift.

As far as the high end.... I started dropping the big ring off my 3x cranks on my MTBs 20 years ago. The only time I spin out 32/11 is on pavement or a dirt road. And in those cases I really donít care. Between the fat meaty tires at low pressures and the aerodynamics of a barn door, I just assume coast at that point rather than killing myself for an extra 2 mph for a 30 second stretch.

On single track, the times I COULD spin out 32/11 are when the trail is steep enough that I donít need to pedal anyway. It is my brakes that decide how fast I am going.

If I were to set up an MTB that also needs to spend a long time on pavement/gravel, Iíd be looking at 2x.
My mountain bike rides rarely end up with less than 1000m climbed and I avoid asphalt at all costs. I only ride on the road to get to the trails, a couple of km from where I live at most. I just like being able to pedall downhill if needed, and I like to pedal at a comforatble cadence when it's flat. If I want to ride on the road I have a road bike for that.

I agree that its a minor issue that affects a small part of my rides. Nontheless, it's an issue that 20 year old tramsissions didn't have, and it bothers me.
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Old 03-01-21, 07:41 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
My mountain bike rides rarely end up with less than 1000m climbed and I avoid asphalt at all costs. I only ride on the road to get to the trails, a couple of km from where I live at most. I just like being able to pedall downhill if needed, and I like to pedal at a comforatble cadence when it's flat. If I want to ride on the road I have a road bike for that.

I agree that its a minor issue that affects a small part of my rides. Nontheless, it's an issue that 20 year old tramsissions didn't have, and it bothers me.
Different strokes I guess. We all have our preferences. Hopefully they keep making 2x options for folks like you, because like you say, range or spacing still has to give going to 1x. 12sp has reduced the compromise somewhat, but it is still there.

In my case, 20 years ago I was pulling off the big ring to convert 3x to 2x and wishing they made wider range 9 sp cassettes so I could go 1X.

I see Microshift now has an 11-46t 9 speed cassette. Iíd have been all over that 20 years ago.
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Old 03-01-21, 07:57 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Different strokes I guess. We all have our preferences. Hopefully they keep making 2x options for folks like you, because like you say, range or spacing still has to give going to 1x. 12sp has reduced the compromise somewhat, but it is still there.

In my case, 20 years ago I was pulling off the big ring to convert 3x to 2x and wishing they made wider range 9 sp cassettes so I could go 1X.

I see Microshift now has an 11-46t 9 speed cassette. Iíd have been all over that 20 years ago.
2x still lacks range compared to 3x. And anyway, I ended up with 1x because they don't make decent bikes with anything else.
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Old 03-01-21, 08:33 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
2x still lacks range compared to 3x. And anyway, I ended up with 1x because they don't make decent bikes with anything else.
Now that you mention it, a lot of new MTBs wonít take a front derailleur. Losing that allowed meaningfull frame design improvements, in particular for 29ers and FS bikes.

But even before the frame design improvements were realized a lot of riders were coming to the same conclusion that I was: bigger gaps were fine, 44/11 was an unnecessarily high ratio, and fewer rings had advantages.

As I said, different strokes. And I know it kind of sucks when the trends go in a way that youíre not crazy about.
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Old 03-01-21, 08:37 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
2x still lacks range compared to 3x. And anyway, I ended up with 1x because they don't make decent bikes with anything else.
You'll soon find out that 1x is all you need.
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Old 03-01-21, 08:46 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
You'll soon find out that 1x is all you need.
I've been riding for a year with a 1x system and my opinion has not changed so far.

It works well for singletrack. That's it.

As soon as you ride the bike out of singletrack, it has lots of weakneses.

And I'm not sure if you have ever ridden a mountain bike in Europe, but here not everything are singletracks and purpose-built trails unless you go to a bike park (which most mountain bikers don't anyway). Most of us don't bring the bike to the trailhead with our car. We just ride out of our front door.

You have to ride lots of dirt roads whenever you want it or not, and in some of them you can easily reach 50km/h + if you dare and are willing to pedal. There are also some really steep dirt roads (some simply unclimbable unless you know bike trial and don't run out of breath), which means losing my 30T is not an option.

Last edited by Amt0571; 03-01-21 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 03-01-21, 09:35 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I The only time I spin out 32/11 is on pavement or a dirt road. And in those cases I really donít care. Between the fat meaty tires at low pressures and the aerodynamics of a barn door, I just assume coast at that point rather than killing myself for an extra 2 mph for a 30 second stretch.

On single track, the times I COULD spin out 32/11 are when the trail is steep enough that I donít need to pedal anyway. It is my brakes that decide how fast I am going.

.

Ive been preaching this to my riding buddies for years when they would say ---- "XTR only has an 11 tooth at the big end -- SRAM is superior because they have a 10 tooth ! " (before microspline ) --- Talk about a cog that just doesnt matter.

That said, i have switched to SRAM because it was the only way i could get 12 speed GripShift. The monster gear ratios are nice, but then again i am rarely using the 50 tooth out back either. A 12 speed 11-(or even 12) 46 would be perfect for me but i havent seen one yet
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Old 03-01-21, 06:21 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
You have to ride lots of dirt roads whenever you want it or not, and in some of them you can easily reach 50km/h + if you dare and are willing to pedal. There are also some really steep dirt roads (some simply unclimbable unless you know bike trial and don't run out of breath), which means losing my 30T is not an option.
Run wider mountain bike tires. Running standard trail pressure on flat ground, I tend to top out at at 35kph. If you're hitting 50 kph, it's because you're going downhill, and you'd probably hit 45 kph without pedaling. Spinning out on a downhill, especially on a mountain bike, doesn't really matter. Low end is definitely an issue with 1x, especially on conversions. I currently have a 22/32 crank with 11-32 9speed cassette. If you're restricted to a 11t cog due to HG hubs, it basically means you need a 50t rear to get a reasonable range. The new Deore 11-51t cassette is basically the ONLY cassette that means that requirement.

Last edited by gsa103; 03-01-21 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 03-01-21, 07:22 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
Run wider mountain bike tires. Running standard trail pressure on flat ground, I tend to top out at at 35kph. If you're hitting 50 kph, it's because you're going downhill, and you'd probably hit 45 kph without pedaling. Spinning out on a downhill, especially on a mountain bike, doesn't really matter. Low end is definitely an issue with 1x, especially on conversions. I currently have a 22/32 crank with 11-32 9speed cassette. If you're restricted to a 11t cog due to HG hubs, it basically means you need a 50t rear to get a reasonable range. The new Deore 11-51t cassette is basically the ONLY cassette that means that requirement.
According to my math, a 32 ring with a 11-46 cassette would get you an essentially identical range to a 22/32 crank with 11-32 cassette. Exact same high (32/11) and and an indistinguishably close low end.

Here is the difference in the low end:
22 ring / 32 cog = 0.6875
32 ring / 46 cog = 0.6957
That is a difference of about 1.2%, or about an 1/8 or 1/10 of a typical gear change.
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Old 03-02-21, 04:02 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
Run wider mountain bike tires. Running standard trail pressure on flat ground, I tend to top out at at 35kph. If you're hitting 50 kph, it's because you're going downhill, and you'd probably hit 45 kph without pedaling. Spinning out on a downhill, especially on a mountain bike, doesn't really matter. Low end is definitely an issue with 1x, especially on conversions. I currently have a 22/32 crank with 11-32 9speed cassette. If you're restricted to a 11t cog due to HG hubs, it basically means you need a 50t rear to get a reasonable range. The new Deore 11-51t cassette is basically the ONLY cassette that means that requirement.
Of course I'm descending when I reach 50kph. I know I could ride at 40 without pedalling. But why should I if the surface is smooth enough and I have nothing better to do than pedal? What if I want to ride faster to jump further?

I'm sorry, but there's no excuse. 1x has a few drawbacks that 20y/o transmissions didn't have. And that's a fact.
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Old 03-02-21, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
I've been riding for a year with a 1x system and my opinion has not changed so far.

It works well for singletrack. That's it.

As soon as you ride the bike out of singletrack, it has lots of weakneses.

And I'm not sure if you have ever ridden a mountain bike in Europe, but here not everything are singletracks and purpose-built trails unless you go to a bike park (which most mountain bikers don't anyway). Most of us don't bring the bike to the trailhead with our car. We just ride out of our front door.

You have to ride lots of dirt roads whenever you want it or not, and in some of them you can easily reach 50km/h + if you dare and are willing to pedal. There are also some really steep dirt roads (some simply unclimbable unless you know bike trial and don't run out of breath), which means losing my 30T is not an option.
Ummmm...yeah. It's a mountain bike. Different tools for different jobs. They don't build mountain bikes for the purpose of riding gravel roads and they don't build gravel bikes for the purpose of riding single track trails. That's like me taking a road bike to the single track mountain bike trail and complaining about how it handles.

What you describe I've done numerous times. A few times a year a few of us get together and ride gravel roads to a single track trail, then we hop on some more gravel roads and head over to another single track trail and then return back to where we started. About a 50 mile ride when done. It's not a big deal and I'm not expecting my 1x bike (32t Chainring/11-46 cassette) to maintain road bike speeds.

And why don't you bring your bike to the trailhead with a car?

I guess if it bugs you enough you can just get a cheap mountain bike where 2x/3x is offered.

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-talon-29

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/atx-2021
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Old 03-02-21, 08:34 AM
  #48  
70sSanO
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I do have to say that this is the only thread I can recall where someone actually gave advice on how to ride slower to be able to fit into the limitations of the gearing.

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Old 03-02-21, 08:44 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
I'm sorry, but there's no excuse. 1x has a few drawbacks that 20y/o transmissions didn't have. And that's a fact.
It's not a fact. It's false. The 2x and 3x systems for mountain bikes you had chain drop, more maintenance, more adjustment, more weight, cross chaining etc.

All of that stuff goes away with a 1x system.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...1x-drivetrains
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Old 03-02-21, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
I do have to say that this is the only thread I can recall where someone actually gave advice on how to ride slower to be able to fit into the limitations of the gearing.
"It's not a fault of the system, it's a feature!"
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