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1x versus 2x for old 26" MTB build

Old 03-02-21, 08:59 AM
  #51  
70sSanO
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One day our kids will be laughing at the massively stupid 50t+ cogs we are running these days. I can’t imagine the ridicule one would face 25 years ago if someone showed up with a pie plate. I mean 26ers had to die just to have a big enough wheel to fit a current large cog.

1x is really the best setup. But one day someone will come up with a reliable and cost effective BB differential. We’re not there but I can hear the hoots and hollers of our primitive technology by future generations.

John
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Old 03-02-21, 09:02 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
And why don't you bring your bike to the trailhead with a car?
Because there's no trailhead. There's just a network of interconnected singletrack and dirt roads. Most singletrack is relatively short and begins and ends on dirt roads that are not accessible by a normal car, and moreover I can get to several trails in less than 10 minutes, pedalling from my front door.

As I told before, mountain biking in europe is quite different to what you ride here. There are simply no purpose built trails unless you go to a bikepark, which most people don't have nearby.
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Old 03-02-21, 09:04 AM
  #53  
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Once price and weight issues are solved, this or something similar will be the future...

https://pinion.eu/en/

https://www.cyclingabout.com/tour-wi...inion-gearbox/

https://zerodebikes.com/bikes

Last edited by prj71; 03-02-21 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 03-02-21, 09:08 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
It's not a fact. It's false. The 2x and 3x systems for mountain bikes you had chain drop, more maintenance, more adjustment, more weight, cross chaining etc.

All of that stuff goes away with a 1x system.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...1x-drivetrains
On my 3x bike I replaced cables twice and adjusted the FD three or four times in 30000km, had few issues with chain drop, and I can manage cross chaining by myself. Crosschaining, BTW does exist in 1x: It's the reason the chain falls from the big cogs when backpedalling, and it causes accelerated chain wear. The thing is you simply can't avoid it.
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Old 03-02-21, 09:15 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
On my 3x bike I replaced cables twice and adjusted the FD three or four times in 30000km, had few issues with chain drop, and I can manage cross chaining by myself.
You don't have to deal with that on a 1x bike.

Crosschaining, BTW does exist in 1x: It's the reason the chain falls from the big cogs when backpedalling, and it causes accelerated chain wear. The thing is you simply can't avoid it.
First off...Why are you back pedaling?

Secondly...On a 1x system, if the chain ring was located in either of the positions of the large or small ring on a 2x or 3x drive train (to either side of the nominal chain-line), then yes the chain would be cross chained when on either the largest or smallest rear sprocket.

However, on a 1x system the chain ring is positioned at the nominal chain line position so it more closely lines up with the center of the cassette...Just like the middle ring on a 3x system. This obviously reduces the lateral angle of the chain when on the largest or smallest rear sprocket compared to the classic cross-chained state of a 2x or 3x system.
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Old 03-02-21, 09:31 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
However, on a 1x system the chain ring is positioned at the nominal chain line position so it more closely lines up with the center of the cassette...Just like the middle ring on a 3x system. This obviously reduces the lateral angle of the chain when on the largest or smallest rear sprocket compared to the classic cross-chained state of a 2x or 3x system.
Won't that middle position limit the size of chainring that can be mounted there? Try to install a bigger one and it'll rub on the chainstay.

Some people might prefer a 42T.
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Old 03-02-21, 09:54 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy View Post
Won't that middle position limit the size of chainring that can be mounted there? Try to install a bigger one and it'll rub on the chainstay.

Some people might prefer a 42T.
It does limit the size on average to around 32 or 34. But I'm not sure why anyone would want a 42 on a mountain bike. Doesn't make any sense. That's road bike territory. The standard road bike 2x is 50/34
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Old 03-02-21, 09:55 AM
  #58  
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It makes sense in places where there are no hills.
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Old 03-02-21, 10:06 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Once price and weight issues are solved, this or something similar will be the future...

https://pinion.eu/en/

https://www.cyclingabout.com/tour-wi...inion-gearbox/

https://zerodebikes.com/bikes
I agree completely. If you think about the fact that SRAM machines their cassette blocks from a single piece of material to save weight is insane, and makes them money from people willing to pay. Itís baffling.

The other issue is the bottom bracket. Nearly every component interface has changed from thru axles to tapered steering tubes, the the bottom bracket is largely unchanged for decades as far as dimensions.

Think about having a 2:1 ratio. Running a 20t that can output at a 40t rate without any difference in chain length/wrap. Pretty crazy.

John
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Old 03-02-21, 10:08 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy View Post
It makes sense in places where there are no hills.
Even if there are no hills on the single track it's still makes no sense.

Last edited by prj71; 03-02-21 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 03-02-21, 12:24 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Ummmm...yeah. It's a mountain bike. Different tools for different jobs. They don't build mountain bikes for the purpose of riding gravel roads and they don't build gravel bikes for the purpose of riding single track trails. That's like me taking a road bike to the single track mountain bike trail and complaining about how it handles.

What you describe I've done numerous times. A few times a year a few of us get together and ride gravel roads to a single track trail, then we hop on some more gravel roads and head over to another single track trail and then return back to where we started. About a 50 mile ride when done. It's not a big deal and I'm not expecting my 1x bike (32t Chainring/11-46 cassette) to maintain road bike speeds.

And why don't you bring your bike to the trailhead with a car?
Ah, the classic, "that's not how I use MY bike, so it's wrong." I live in the US and also greatly prefer to start rides from my front door when it's feasible. Please get out of my thread with your attitude, non-sense, and other things I can't type here.
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Old 03-02-21, 02:55 PM
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I never said anything was wrong.

Just pointing out that a bike that is made for trail riding can't be expected to be good for road/gravel riding. Being that mountain bikes are geared to tackle hill climbs and general trail riding...can't have your cake and eat it too. It's just common sense.
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Old 03-02-21, 03:05 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
I agree completely. If you think about the fact that SRAM machines their cassette blocks from a single piece of material to save weight is insane, and makes them money from people willing to pay. Itís baffling.

The other issue is the bottom bracket. Nearly every component interface has changed from thru axles to tapered steering tubes, the the bottom bracket is largely unchanged for decades as far as dimensions.

Think about having a 2:1 ratio. Running a 20t that can output at a 40t rate without any difference in chain length/wrap. Pretty crazy.

John
Well there is the ATS speed drive at 1.65:1 but with around a 30T minimum. Doesn't work too bad, little bit of slop, needed to allow the gears to mesh. The dust/water sealing isn't up to serious off road however.
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Old 03-02-21, 03:11 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Just pointing out that a bike that is made for trail riding can't be expected to be good for road/gravel riding. Being that mountain bikes are geared to tackle hill climbs and general trail riding...can't have your cake and eat it too. It's just common sense.
It's common sense that, when you start from a well-optimized machine, expanding its versatility leads to compromises elsewhere. The degree of compromise necessary to add a certain amount of versatility can be a complex issue, though.

(And the way in which the bicycle industry divides up bicycle categories is not necessarily indicative of where the bottlenecks in this game of compromises lie.)
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Old 03-02-21, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post

Just pointing out that a bike that is made for trail riding can't be expected to be good for road/gravel riding. Being that mountain bikes are geared to tackle hill climbs and general trail riding...can't have your cake and eat it too.
Seems like a mountain bike would make a pretty good gravel bike; maybe even a better one than an actual "gravel" bike. I sure see a lot of them around but I don't see very many mountain bike trails. None, actually.

This reminds me of the thread where there was a guy who claimed our road bikes weren't made for running short errands on, that they were made for speed and distance not trips down to the corner coffee shop. Maybe that was you?
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Old 03-02-21, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
One day our kids will be laughing at the massively stupid 50t+ cogs we are running these days
Maybe? 50+t chain rings should have gone away when freehubs were invented but here we are.
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Old 03-02-21, 07:29 PM
  #67  
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I just wish there was an easy parts guide to use for converting a late 90s era 26” mtb with a 3x8 into a 1x10. Like what crank to use, what bb (will the stock stuff work if I just pull off the big ring and the granny?) etc. Will a 26” wheel with a Shimano 8 speed cassette be convertible into a 1x10? Etc.
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Old 03-02-21, 08:35 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by AdkMtnMonster View Post
I just wish there was an easy parts guide to use for converting a late 90s era 26Ē mtb with a 3x8 into a 1x10. Like what crank to use, what bb (will the stock stuff work if I just pull off the big ring and the granny?) etc. Will a 26Ē wheel with a Shimano 8 speed cassette be convertible into a 1x10? Etc.
Just use the middle ring position of the 3x crank you already have. Get a narrow-wide ring to replace the middle ring. You just need to know the BCD of your chainring.

8, 9, and 10 speed cassettes all use the same width freehub. So yes, a 10 speed cassette will work on your hub. Also, many 11 speed cassettes will fit as well (the shimano HG style with the 11t small cog)

You just need to decide on which 1x10 or 1x11 shifter/rd you want to go with. There are many to choose from. I did 1x11 conversions on two bikes using 3x cranks. One with Shimano SLX, shifter/RD, another with XT shifter/rd For both I used a Sunrace 11-46 11 speed cassette. Shimano Deore has a 1x10 shifter/RD and 11-46 cassette. Microshift also makes some good 1x9 and 1x10 systems (shifter, RD, cassette) with a really wide range. A buddy of mine just set up the 1x9 with a 11-46 cassette. Unless there is something weird about your bike, any of these should work for you.

If you want a sample parts list here is a 1x11 SLX setup that will probably work on your bike (though you should give all the specifics first) It is pretty much the same as what I used. This should be everything but a new cable/housing

Shifter: https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-SL...-Speed-Shifter
RD: https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-SL...ear-Derailleur
Cassette: https://www.jensonusa.com/Sunrace-CS...speed+cassette
Chain: https://www.jensonusa.com/SRAM-PC-X1-11-Speed-Chain
RIng (I am guessing at your BCD. Also, you could just try the ring you already have and see how it goes): https://www.jensonusa.com/Race-Face-...Wide-Chainring

You will need either shorter chainring bolts (since you don't have a big ring, but I think a simple bashguard looks cleaner:
https://bbgbashguard.com/ (you will need to know the tooth count of your single ring so the bash will cover it, and the BCD of the crank)
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Old 03-02-21, 09:16 PM
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Going from 3x to 1x is pretty easy, but you first need to figure out what climbing gear you need and the bolt circle diameter of you current middle ring. Early 90’s 5 arm were 110bcd and the smallest ring is 34t, late 90’s 4 arm is 104bcd and the smallest ring is 32. Some 5 arm are 94bcd and you can run down to 30t.

It isn’t a show stopper, but if you need an equivalent to a 22t chainring and a 34t large cog, and your middle can only go to 32t, you’ll need a 50t to equal it.

It is just math, but better to figure it out before you start buying.

John
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Old 03-02-21, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Going from 3x to 1x is pretty easy, but you first need to figure out what climbing gear you need and the bolt circle diameter of you current middle ring. Early 90ís 5 arm were 110bcd and the smallest ring is 34t, late 90ís 4 arm is 104bcd and the smallest ring is 32. Some 5 arm are 94bcd and you can run down to 30t.

It isnít a show stopper, but if you need an equivalent to a 22t chainring and a 34t large cog, and your middle can only go to 32t, youíll need a 50t to equal it.

It is just math, but better to figure it out before you start buying.

John
Oops, never mind. I misunderstood which post you were responding to.

My bad.

Last edited by Kapusta; 03-02-21 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 03-02-21, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
8, 9, and 10 speed cassettes all use the same width freehub. So yes, a 10 speed cassette will work on your hub. Also, many 11 speed cassettes will fit as well (the shimano HG style with the 11t small cog)
12 speed as well, sunrace makes HG style 12 speed cassettes.
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Old 03-03-21, 09:48 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy View Post
Seems like a mountain bike would make a pretty good gravel bike; maybe even a better one than an actual "gravel" bike. I sure see a lot of them around but I don't see very many mountain bike trails. None, actually.
I've used my hard tail mountain bike on some gravel bike races. It has a 32T up front and 11-42 out back. These are races where about 80% of the route is gravel and about 20% is paved. On some of the loose gravel sections I was able to hang with the gravel bikes due to the larger tires. On the paved sections or fine rock gravel sections...the gravel bikes blew me away...I ran out of gears and wasn't able to maintain 18 mph+ speeds. On some of the hills I had the advantage with the lower gearing than gravel bikes.

Again...right tool for the job.

This reminds me of the thread where there was a guy who claimed our road bikes weren't made for running short errands on, that they were made for speed and distance not trips down to the corner coffee shop. Maybe that was you?
That was not me. I drink my own coffee made at home or coffee from the gas station. Not the overpriced $tuff that tastes exactly the same at the coffee shop.
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Old 03-03-21, 09:57 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy View Post
Seems like a mountain bike would make a pretty good gravel bike; maybe even a better one than an actual "gravel" bike.
This gets re-hashed occasionally.

IMO, no, a gravel bike makes a better gravel bike than a mtb does.

Gearing, tires, riding/hand position, weight. All of those things optimize differently for trail riding and gravel riding. Sure, an XC HT can work perfectly OK on a dirt road, but a gravel bike will be better suited.

If you are talking about an MTB from the 80s or 90s, the conversation might be different.... but those are not as good at trail riding as modern MTBs.
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Old 03-03-21, 11:19 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
This gets re-hashed occasionally.

IMO, no, a gravel bike makes a better gravel bike than a mtb does.

Gearing, tires, riding/hand position, weight. All of those things optimize differently for trail riding and gravel riding. Sure, an XC HT can work perfectly OK on a dirt road, but a gravel bike will be better suited.

If you are talking about an MTB from the 80s or 90s, the conversation might be different.... but those are not as good at trail riding as modern MTBs.
^^Nailed it!!!
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Old 03-03-21, 09:25 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I think the weight savings being quoted here are way too optomistic if comparing similar levels of components. Lets look at XT 2x10 and 1x11

You will gain weight in the cassettes:
---11-36 10sp ~330g
---11-46 11 sp ~439g
So you gain ~ 110g there

You will lose weight at the crank:
---FC-M7100-1 (32t, 175mm): 631g
---FC-M7100-2 (26-36t, 175mm): 674g
You lose 43g there

Things that go away:
---XT front der: 146g
---XT front shifter 122g
---Cable and housing: guessing ~70g
So you lose 338g of stuff

So this has you netting a ~271g weight loss. So this back-of-the-napkin estimate is around 0.6 lbs.

These weights are taken from a variety of sources that I have not completely vetted. If someone has better number to plug in here, have at.
Two more to eat away at the weight savings...

To get similar range to 2x you might want to consider a 11-50 cassette, which is 515g from Sunrace. Or get the boat anchor Shimano Deore one that's like 675g (LOL).

To support that 50t cog you need a new derailleur, which is 320g.

I've been doing similar math for myself because I want a 1x (front derailleur shifting is a mood killer), but it's hard to justify given the huge cost and the maybe 1/2 pounds of weight saving.
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