Couple questions on an old Routens.
12-28-23, 04:31 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Couple questions on an old Routens.
I picked up this Jo Routens for the wheelset. I was having a hard time finding a pair of campy HF hubs laced to silver clinchers, and it would have cost me about as much to build a set as I spent on this bike. Plus, I love the constructeurs, so it felt like a win win.
It seems clear that this was not top-notch constructeur-level Routens. It's a nice bike but it looks more like a production model than custom job. I figured it was something he had built under his name, and I have found one bike in the past that had the same color and details. But I'm seeking a little more info. Questions are below, but I also welcome any comments. I'd like to learn more about the bike. I could also be talked into selling this (minus the wheels or with a different wheelset), since it is a little small for me.
1. Anyone have a guess on the date or date range? I'm thinking mid 70s, but that's just a guess. Components have been either partially or completely replaced, so they probably aren't the best clue, but the saddle is stamped as a 67.
2. Why is the bb shell and brake bridge not lugged? Routens was known for filet brazing, but this doesn't have any of his hallmarks. Could it be internally lugged?
3. Why is there a mounting stud on the non-drive side chainstay, but nothing corresponding on the drive side? Maybe a light mount?
4. Anyone know what derailleurs would have come "stock" on these? Since it's probably a production bike and not a custom job, I presume they all came out mostly the same. Nervar cranks are conceivably original but the Suntour drivetrain seems too un-French for this bike.
5. Any idea what the original stem would have been? The one that's in it is an SR that looks improperly sized. It will need to be swapped.
One day better photos will come. This was the best I could do with the sun going down and the parts hung back on the bike. I didn't want to put much time into it because I think it will need to be fully rebuilt.
It seems clear that this was not top-notch constructeur-level Routens. It's a nice bike but it looks more like a production model than custom job. I figured it was something he had built under his name, and I have found one bike in the past that had the same color and details. But I'm seeking a little more info. Questions are below, but I also welcome any comments. I'd like to learn more about the bike. I could also be talked into selling this (minus the wheels or with a different wheelset), since it is a little small for me.
1. Anyone have a guess on the date or date range? I'm thinking mid 70s, but that's just a guess. Components have been either partially or completely replaced, so they probably aren't the best clue, but the saddle is stamped as a 67.
2. Why is the bb shell and brake bridge not lugged? Routens was known for filet brazing, but this doesn't have any of his hallmarks. Could it be internally lugged?
3. Why is there a mounting stud on the non-drive side chainstay, but nothing corresponding on the drive side? Maybe a light mount?
4. Anyone know what derailleurs would have come "stock" on these? Since it's probably a production bike and not a custom job, I presume they all came out mostly the same. Nervar cranks are conceivably original but the Suntour drivetrain seems too un-French for this bike.
5. Any idea what the original stem would have been? The one that's in it is an SR that looks improperly sized. It will need to be swapped.
One day better photos will come. This was the best I could do with the sun going down and the parts hung back on the bike. I didn't want to put much time into it because I think it will need to be fully rebuilt.
12-28-23, 04:57 PM
#2
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Routens had a few modes of production. There were high-end full custom bikes built in his workshop, budget custom bikes built in his workshop, and in the 70s specifically there were some entry level bikes built by an outside contractor. While the BB junction brazing is a typical feature of a workshop-built bike, the rest of the frame, especially the lack of hellenic stays, indicates it was a contractor-built frame. Who knows, there might have also been frames completed in the workshop after receiving a subassembly from the contractor, or vice versa.
1. Anyone have a guess on the date or date range? I'm thinking mid 70s, but that's just a guess. Components have been either partially or completely replaced, so they probably aren't the best clue, but the saddle is stamped as a 67.
Early 70s should be right. They did not start using those silver foil stickers until the 60s and the rest of the components indicate 70s. Also, this looks like a contractor-built bike and as far as I know these only started to be available during the bike boom.
2. Why is the bb shell and brake bridge not lugged? Routens was known for filet brazing, but this doesn't have any of his hallmarks. Could it be internally lugged?
Normally in fillet brazing a first pass is made to fill the joint (often called a "tinning pass") and then a second pass is made to build a heavier fillet over top of that with a radius. What you see here is the first step being done without the second step. It was common for some French constructeurs to do this for certain joints. For Routens, he often did it at the BB junction and the seat tube>top tube junction when doing the Hellenic stays. There are some constructeurs, such as Jacques Busset, who did it for all joints on the frame. If the proper braze material is used, it can be quite strong without needing a larger fillet laid over top. There is no internal lug. If you go to Norris Lockley's flickr account you can see some discussion of this technique under his photos of Reyhand and Hugonnier-Routens bikes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclec...n/photostream/
3. Why is there a mounting stud on the non-drive side chainstay, but nothing corresponding on the drive side? Maybe a light mount?
Yes, this was most likely for a generator-powered taillight.
4. Anyone know what derailleurs would have come "stock" on these? Since it's probably a production bike and not a custom job, I presume they all came out mostly the same. Nervar cranks are conceivably original but the Suntour drivetrain seems too un-French for this bike.
Simplex or Huret.
5. Any idea what the original stem would have been? The one that's in it is an SR that looks improperly sized. It will need to be swapped.
Philippe/Atax most likely.
1. Anyone have a guess on the date or date range? I'm thinking mid 70s, but that's just a guess. Components have been either partially or completely replaced, so they probably aren't the best clue, but the saddle is stamped as a 67.
Early 70s should be right. They did not start using those silver foil stickers until the 60s and the rest of the components indicate 70s. Also, this looks like a contractor-built bike and as far as I know these only started to be available during the bike boom.
2. Why is the bb shell and brake bridge not lugged? Routens was known for filet brazing, but this doesn't have any of his hallmarks. Could it be internally lugged?
Normally in fillet brazing a first pass is made to fill the joint (often called a "tinning pass") and then a second pass is made to build a heavier fillet over top of that with a radius. What you see here is the first step being done without the second step. It was common for some French constructeurs to do this for certain joints. For Routens, he often did it at the BB junction and the seat tube>top tube junction when doing the Hellenic stays. There are some constructeurs, such as Jacques Busset, who did it for all joints on the frame. If the proper braze material is used, it can be quite strong without needing a larger fillet laid over top. There is no internal lug. If you go to Norris Lockley's flickr account you can see some discussion of this technique under his photos of Reyhand and Hugonnier-Routens bikes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclec...n/photostream/
3. Why is there a mounting stud on the non-drive side chainstay, but nothing corresponding on the drive side? Maybe a light mount?
Yes, this was most likely for a generator-powered taillight.
4. Anyone know what derailleurs would have come "stock" on these? Since it's probably a production bike and not a custom job, I presume they all came out mostly the same. Nervar cranks are conceivably original but the Suntour drivetrain seems too un-French for this bike.
Simplex or Huret.
5. Any idea what the original stem would have been? The one that's in it is an SR that looks improperly sized. It will need to be swapped.
Philippe/Atax most likely.
Last edited by TenGrainBread; 12-28-23 at 05:24 PM.
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12-28-23, 05:54 PM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Routens had a few modes of production. There were high-end full custom bikes built in his workshop, budget custom bikes built in his workshop, and in the 70s specifically there were some entry level bikes built by an outside contractor. While the BB junction brazing is a typical feature of a workshop-built bike, the rest of the frame, especially the lack of hellenic stays, indicates it was a contractor-built frame. Who knows, there might have also been frames completed in the workshop after receiving a subassembly from the contractor, or vice versa.
1. Anyone have a guess on the date or date range? I'm thinking mid 70s, but that's just a guess. Components have been either partially or completely replaced, so they probably aren't the best clue, but the saddle is stamped as a 67.
Early 70s should be right. They did not start using those silver foil stickers until the 60s and the rest of the components indicate 70s. Also, this looks like a contractor-built bike and as far as I know these only started to be available during the bike boom.
2. Why is the bb shell and brake bridge not lugged? Routens was known for filet brazing, but this doesn't have any of his hallmarks. Could it be internally lugged?
Normally in fillet brazing a first pass is made to fill the joint (often called a "tinning pass") and then a second pass is made to build a heavier fillet over top of that with a radius. What you see here is the first step being done without the second step. It was common for some French constructeurs to do this for certain joints. For Routens, he often did it at the BB junction and the seat tube>top tube junction when doing the Hellenic stays. There are some constructeurs, such as Jacques Busset, who did it for all joints on the frame. If the proper braze material is used, it can be quite strong without needing a larger fillet laid over top. There is no internal lug. If you go to Norris Lockley's flickr account you can see some discussion of this technique under his photos of Reyhand and Hugonnier-Routens bikes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclec...n/photostream/
3. Why is there a mounting stud on the non-drive side chainstay, but nothing corresponding on the drive side? Maybe a light mount?
Yes, this was most likely for a generator-powered taillight.
4. Anyone know what derailleurs would have come "stock" on these? Since it's probably a production bike and not a custom job, I presume they all came out mostly the same. Nervar cranks are conceivably original but the Suntour drivetrain seems too un-French for this bike.
Simplex or Huret.
5. Any idea what the original stem would have been? The one that's in it is an SR that looks improperly sized. It will need to be swapped.
Philippe/Atax most likely.
1. Anyone have a guess on the date or date range? I'm thinking mid 70s, but that's just a guess. Components have been either partially or completely replaced, so they probably aren't the best clue, but the saddle is stamped as a 67.
Early 70s should be right. They did not start using those silver foil stickers until the 60s and the rest of the components indicate 70s. Also, this looks like a contractor-built bike and as far as I know these only started to be available during the bike boom.
2. Why is the bb shell and brake bridge not lugged? Routens was known for filet brazing, but this doesn't have any of his hallmarks. Could it be internally lugged?
Normally in fillet brazing a first pass is made to fill the joint (often called a "tinning pass") and then a second pass is made to build a heavier fillet over top of that with a radius. What you see here is the first step being done without the second step. It was common for some French constructeurs to do this for certain joints. For Routens, he often did it at the BB junction and the seat tube>top tube junction when doing the Hellenic stays. There are some constructeurs, such as Jacques Busset, who did it for all joints on the frame. If the proper braze material is used, it can be quite strong without needing a larger fillet laid over top. There is no internal lug. If you go to Norris Lockley's flickr account you can see some discussion of this technique under his photos of Reyhand and Hugonnier-Routens bikes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclec...n/photostream/
3. Why is there a mounting stud on the non-drive side chainstay, but nothing corresponding on the drive side? Maybe a light mount?
Yes, this was most likely for a generator-powered taillight.
4. Anyone know what derailleurs would have come "stock" on these? Since it's probably a production bike and not a custom job, I presume they all came out mostly the same. Nervar cranks are conceivably original but the Suntour drivetrain seems too un-French for this bike.
Simplex or Huret.
5. Any idea what the original stem would have been? The one that's in it is an SR that looks improperly sized. It will need to be swapped.
Philippe/Atax most likely.
