OK, let me get this straight Sram fans
04-07-13, 03:11 PM
#1
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
OK, let me get this straight Sram fans
So at my LBS today they tell me that yes, Sram Red is redesigned over the last year, and I tried the new Red shifters in the shop, and the Doubletap throw is much shorter, hopefully less annoying, I'd have to ride it. Three days on Sram Force in January was such utter fail for me that I couldn't wait to get back to Shimano. About half the people I talk to don't like doubletap, but I can see how if they make the throw snappier it could work. So far so good. But wait, Sram is about to release 11 speed. 'But I thought it already was 11 speed' I say to my LBS. 'Oh no, but they are going to release 11 speed in the next couple of months, it's currently 10 speed.'
This whole 11 speed arms race is kind of silly, it's actually keeping consumers from buying new bike stuff in some ways; I just went for a frame vs. a full bike because I don't want to render all my wheels non-interchangable between my bikes. I have a friend who is about to go Sram Red because Di2 is only available now in 11 speed, he doesn't want to buy last year's stuff. Telling His Holiness that his long time bike pal Don is going over to Sram is like hearing one of your trusted Cardinals is becoming a voodoo priest.
Now if they could come up with 11 speed that worked with the same spacing as 10 speed, they'd have something, but they don't, and they won't, and it's really rather confusing. Nor could they tell me if the new Red would be backwardsly compatible in such a manner, but they seemed to doubt it.
Between the Utter Fail of D.A. 7900 mechanical shifting and this whole 11 speed fiasco, it's even shaking my faith. But then I'm the same idiot who declared the Scott Foil, the Fail, and now I think it's the best bike I ever rode. In my defense they did improve the ride on the bike from all reports from the early frames, my new Foil felt great on the road today.
I do want to like Red components, they look very nice, they're light. I just have to see if I can live with the shifting. That being said, I do love Di2, I don't think saving 300 grams (or whatever it would be) could get me to make the leap. But the more component choices we have, the better.
This whole 11 speed arms race is kind of silly, it's actually keeping consumers from buying new bike stuff in some ways; I just went for a frame vs. a full bike because I don't want to render all my wheels non-interchangable between my bikes. I have a friend who is about to go Sram Red because Di2 is only available now in 11 speed, he doesn't want to buy last year's stuff. Telling His Holiness that his long time bike pal Don is going over to Sram is like hearing one of your trusted Cardinals is becoming a voodoo priest.
Now if they could come up with 11 speed that worked with the same spacing as 10 speed, they'd have something, but they don't, and they won't, and it's really rather confusing. Nor could they tell me if the new Red would be backwardsly compatible in such a manner, but they seemed to doubt it.
Between the Utter Fail of D.A. 7900 mechanical shifting and this whole 11 speed fiasco, it's even shaking my faith. But then I'm the same idiot who declared the Scott Foil, the Fail, and now I think it's the best bike I ever rode. In my defense they did improve the ride on the bike from all reports from the early frames, my new Foil felt great on the road today.
I do want to like Red components, they look very nice, they're light. I just have to see if I can live with the shifting. That being said, I do love Di2, I don't think saving 300 grams (or whatever it would be) could get me to make the leap. But the more component choices we have, the better.
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04-07-13, 03:18 PM
#2
Peloton Shelter Dog
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No, I don't know what my point is.
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04-07-13, 03:25 PM
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So at my LBS today they tell me that yes, Sram Red is redesigned over the last year, and I tried the new Red shifters in the shop, and the Doubletap throw is much shorter, hopefully less annoying, I'd have to ride it. Three days on Sram Force in January was such utter fail for me that I couldn't wait to get back to Shimano. About half the people I talk to don't like doubletap, but I can see how if they make the throw snappier it could work. So far so good. But wait, Sram is about to release 11 speed. 'But I thought it already was 11 speed' I say to my LBS. 'Oh no, but they are going to release 11 speed in the next couple of months, it's currently 10 speed.'
This whole 11 speed arms race is kind of silly, it's actually keeping consumers from buying new bike stuff in some ways; I just went for a frame vs. a full bike because I don't want to render all my wheels non-interchangable between my bikes. I have a friend who is about to go Sram Red because Di2 is only available now in 11 speed, he doesn't want to buy last year's stuff. Telling His Holiness that his long time bike pal Don is going over to Sram is like hearing one of your trusted Cardinals is becoming a voodoo priest.
Now if they could come up with 11 speed that worked with the same spacing as 10 speed, they'd have something, but they don't, and they won't, and it's really rather confusing. Nor could they tell me if the new Red would be backwardsly compatible in such a manner, but they seemed to doubt it.
Between the Utter Fail of D.A. 7900 mechanical shifting and this whole 11 speed fiasco, it's even shaking my faith. But then I'm the same idiot who declared the Scott Foil, the Fail, and now I think it's the best bike I ever rode. In my defense they did improve the ride on the bike from all reports from the early frames, my new Foil felt great on the road today.
I do want to like Red components, they look very nice, they're light. I just have to see if I can live with the shifting. That being said, I do love Di2, I don't think saving 300 grams (or whatever it would be) could get me to make the leap. But the more component choices we have, the better.
This whole 11 speed arms race is kind of silly, it's actually keeping consumers from buying new bike stuff in some ways; I just went for a frame vs. a full bike because I don't want to render all my wheels non-interchangable between my bikes. I have a friend who is about to go Sram Red because Di2 is only available now in 11 speed, he doesn't want to buy last year's stuff. Telling His Holiness that his long time bike pal Don is going over to Sram is like hearing one of your trusted Cardinals is becoming a voodoo priest.
Now if they could come up with 11 speed that worked with the same spacing as 10 speed, they'd have something, but they don't, and they won't, and it's really rather confusing. Nor could they tell me if the new Red would be backwardsly compatible in such a manner, but they seemed to doubt it.
Between the Utter Fail of D.A. 7900 mechanical shifting and this whole 11 speed fiasco, it's even shaking my faith. But then I'm the same idiot who declared the Scott Foil, the Fail, and now I think it's the best bike I ever rode. In my defense they did improve the ride on the bike from all reports from the early frames, my new Foil felt great on the road today.
I do want to like Red components, they look very nice, they're light. I just have to see if I can live with the shifting. That being said, I do love Di2, I don't think saving 300 grams (or whatever it would be) could get me to make the leap. But the more component choices we have, the better.
I think too many bicyclist get overly caught up in having this years latest and greatest. If it has the gear range and it works well then it's probably fine for pretty much every one.
I'm about to sell 3 of my bikes and just have a couple and start riding more and obsessing over gear less, it might work better.
04-07-13, 03:40 PM
#4
SuperGimp
04-07-13, 03:45 PM
#5
Peloton Shelter Dog
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It annoyed me even more than your post, and that's saying something right there.
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04-07-13, 03:46 PM
#6
Peloton Shelter Dog
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Righteously stated my son.
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04-07-13, 04:20 PM
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So at my LBS today they tell me that yes, Sram Red is redesigned over the last year, and I tried the new Red shifters in the shop, and the Doubletap throw is much shorter, hopefully less annoying, I'd have to ride it. Three days on Sram Force in January was such utter fail for me that I couldn't wait to get back to Shimano. About half the people I talk to don't like doubletap, but I can see how if they make the throw snappier it could work. So far so good. But wait, Sram is about to release 11 speed. 'But I thought it already was 11 speed' I say to my LBS. 'Oh no, but they are going to release 11 speed in the next couple of months, it's currently 10 speed.'
This whole 11 speed arms race is kind of silly, it's actually keeping consumers from buying new bike stuff in some ways; I just went for a frame vs. a full bike because I don't want to render all my wheels non-interchangable between my bikes. I have a friend who is about to go Sram Red because Di2 is only available now in 11 speed, he doesn't want to buy last year's stuff. Telling His Holiness that his long time bike pal Don is going over to Sram is like hearing one of your trusted Cardinals is becoming a voodoo priest.
Now if they could come up with 11 speed that worked with the same spacing as 10 speed, they'd have something, but they don't, and they won't, and it's really rather confusing. Nor could they tell me if the new Red would be backwardsly compatible in such a manner, but they seemed to doubt it.
Between the Utter Fail of D.A. 7900 mechanical shifting and this whole 11 speed fiasco, it's even shaking my faith. But then I'm the same idiot who declared the Scott Foil, the Fail, and now I think it's the best bike I ever rode. In my defense they did improve the ride on the bike from all reports from the early frames, my new Foil felt great on the road today.
I do want to like Red components, they look very nice, they're light. I just have to see if I can live with the shifting. That being said, I do love Di2, I don't think saving 300 grams (or whatever it would be) could get me to make the leap. But the more component choices we have, the better.
This whole 11 speed arms race is kind of silly, it's actually keeping consumers from buying new bike stuff in some ways; I just went for a frame vs. a full bike because I don't want to render all my wheels non-interchangable between my bikes. I have a friend who is about to go Sram Red because Di2 is only available now in 11 speed, he doesn't want to buy last year's stuff. Telling His Holiness that his long time bike pal Don is going over to Sram is like hearing one of your trusted Cardinals is becoming a voodoo priest.
Now if they could come up with 11 speed that worked with the same spacing as 10 speed, they'd have something, but they don't, and they won't, and it's really rather confusing. Nor could they tell me if the new Red would be backwardsly compatible in such a manner, but they seemed to doubt it.
Between the Utter Fail of D.A. 7900 mechanical shifting and this whole 11 speed fiasco, it's even shaking my faith. But then I'm the same idiot who declared the Scott Foil, the Fail, and now I think it's the best bike I ever rode. In my defense they did improve the ride on the bike from all reports from the early frames, my new Foil felt great on the road today.
I do want to like Red components, they look very nice, they're light. I just have to see if I can live with the shifting. That being said, I do love Di2, I don't think saving 300 grams (or whatever it would be) could get me to make the leap. But the more component choices we have, the better.
There will be backward compatibly with 11s wheelsets moving forward. The way Shimano addresses this is with a spacer on their longer 11s freehub. So if you buy a new Shimano 11s wheelset to say work with DA 9000 and lets say you decide to switch to new Red, you don't have to ditch your 11s wheels...just add a spacer and a 10s Shimano cassette. Further 11s is pretty much the future for all groupset mfr's though I don't ride it yet and have no plans to in the immediate future. The biggest disconnect of course is the difference between Campy and Shimano wheelsets which still exists..not only with 10s but with 11s....Campy commonizes 10 and 11s on the same freehub because they had bigger spacing with 10s to begin with. Shimano basically ran out of room with their 10s and so had to increase the rear wheel dish and release a longer free hub to accomodate their 11s spacing.
PS: my advice to all that want to run Sram or Shimano moving forward...even if sticking with 10s for the current time...if you need a new wheelset, make sure you get the new Shimano 11s spec aka rear hub. That way if you ever do decide to upgrade to 11s...say even current Di2 10s owners who end up tweaking the electronics to index 10 x's i.e. 11s in future as this hack becomes available...with 11s Shimano wheels, you can run them 11s or 10s with a spacer in back.
Last edited by Campag4life; 04-07-13 at 04:28 PM.
04-07-13, 04:47 PM
#9
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
A note on backward compatible issue to educate the church a bit.
There will be backward compatibly with 11s wheelsets moving forward. The way Shimano addresses this is with a spacer on their longer 11s freehub. So if you buy a new Shimano 11s wheelset to say work with DA 9000 and lets say you decide to switch to new Red, you don't have to ditch your 11s wheels...just add a spacer and a 10s Shimano cassette. Further 11s is pretty much the future for all groupset mfr's though I don't ride it yet and have no plans to in the immediate future. The biggest disconnect of course is the difference between Campy and Shimano wheelsets which still exists..not only with 10s but with 11s....Campy commonizes 10 and 11s on the same freehub because they had bigger spacing with 10s to begin with. Shimano basically ran out of room with their 10s and so had to increase the rear wheel dish and release a longer free hub to accomodate their 11s spacing.
PS: my advice to all that want to run Sram or Shimano moving forward...even if sticking with 10s for the current time...if you need a new wheelset, make sure you get the new Shimano 11s spec aka rear hub. That way if you ever do decide to upgrade to 11s...say even current Di2 10s owners who end up tweaking the electronics to index 10 x's i.e. 11s in future as this hack becomes available...with 11s Shimano wheels, you can run them 11s or 10s with a spacer in back.
There will be backward compatibly with 11s wheelsets moving forward. The way Shimano addresses this is with a spacer on their longer 11s freehub. So if you buy a new Shimano 11s wheelset to say work with DA 9000 and lets say you decide to switch to new Red, you don't have to ditch your 11s wheels...just add a spacer and a 10s Shimano cassette. Further 11s is pretty much the future for all groupset mfr's though I don't ride it yet and have no plans to in the immediate future. The biggest disconnect of course is the difference between Campy and Shimano wheelsets which still exists..not only with 10s but with 11s....Campy commonizes 10 and 11s on the same freehub because they had bigger spacing with 10s to begin with. Shimano basically ran out of room with their 10s and so had to increase the rear wheel dish and release a longer free hub to accomodate their 11s spacing.
PS: my advice to all that want to run Sram or Shimano moving forward...even if sticking with 10s for the current time...if you need a new wheelset, make sure you get the new Shimano 11s spec aka rear hub. That way if you ever do decide to upgrade to 11s...say even current Di2 10s owners who end up tweaking the electronics to index 10 x's i.e. 11s in future as this hack becomes available...with 11s Shimano wheels, you can run them 11s or 10s with a spacer in back.
I will say a Mass for you my son.
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04-07-13, 04:56 PM
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A note on backward compatible issue to educate the church a bit.
There will be backward compatibly with 11s wheelsets moving forward. The way Shimano addresses this is with a spacer on their longer 11s freehub. So if you buy a new Shimano 11s wheelset to say work with DA 9000 and lets say you decide to switch to new Red, you don't have to ditch your 11s wheels...just add a spacer and a 10s Shimano cassette. Further 11s is pretty much the future for all groupset mfr's though I don't ride it yet and have no plans to in the immediate future. The biggest disconnect of course is the difference between Campy and Shimano wheelsets which still exists..not only with 10s but with 11s....Campy commonizes 10 and 11s on the same freehub because they had bigger spacing with 10s to begin with. Shimano basically ran out of room with their 10s and so had to increase the rear wheel dish and release a longer free hub to accomodate their 11s spacing.
PS: my advice to all that want to run Sram or Shimano moving forward...even if sticking with 10s for the current time...if you need a new wheelset, make sure you get the new Shimano 11s spec aka rear hub. That way if you ever do decide to upgrade to 11s...say even current Di2 10s owners who end up tweaking the electronics to index 10 x's i.e. 11s in future as this hack becomes available...with 11s Shimano wheels, you can run them 11s or 10s with a spacer in back.
There will be backward compatibly with 11s wheelsets moving forward. The way Shimano addresses this is with a spacer on their longer 11s freehub. So if you buy a new Shimano 11s wheelset to say work with DA 9000 and lets say you decide to switch to new Red, you don't have to ditch your 11s wheels...just add a spacer and a 10s Shimano cassette. Further 11s is pretty much the future for all groupset mfr's though I don't ride it yet and have no plans to in the immediate future. The biggest disconnect of course is the difference between Campy and Shimano wheelsets which still exists..not only with 10s but with 11s....Campy commonizes 10 and 11s on the same freehub because they had bigger spacing with 10s to begin with. Shimano basically ran out of room with their 10s and so had to increase the rear wheel dish and release a longer free hub to accomodate their 11s spacing.
PS: my advice to all that want to run Sram or Shimano moving forward...even if sticking with 10s for the current time...if you need a new wheelset, make sure you get the new Shimano 11s spec aka rear hub. That way if you ever do decide to upgrade to 11s...say even current Di2 10s owners who end up tweaking the electronics to index 10 x's i.e. 11s in future as this hack becomes available...with 11s Shimano wheels, you can run them 11s or 10s with a spacer in back.
04-07-13, 05:05 PM
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If you are patient Immenseness, I am sure that Sram will not only come out with 11 speed, but will come out with an electronic version also. Then you can lament about that.
Yes Red throws are slightly shorter, I have Force on another bike and can hardly tell a difference. The big difference with the new Red is the front derailleur,The new Red Yaw derailleur, has no trim position on the shifter . Because it isnt needed. You can run the entire cassette in either large or small ring with 0 rub in the front derailleur. So while di2 self trims, red doesnt need to trim. I like the Yaw derailleur so much that I replaced the brand new red black front derailleur on the Force bike with the new yaw Red derailleur. Even with a Force shifter it works perfectly and again no rub in either ring.
Yes Red throws are slightly shorter, I have Force on another bike and can hardly tell a difference. The big difference with the new Red is the front derailleur,The new Red Yaw derailleur, has no trim position on the shifter . Because it isnt needed. You can run the entire cassette in either large or small ring with 0 rub in the front derailleur. So while di2 self trims, red doesnt need to trim. I like the Yaw derailleur so much that I replaced the brand new red black front derailleur on the Force bike with the new yaw Red derailleur. Even with a Force shifter it works perfectly and again no rub in either ring.
04-07-13, 05:09 PM
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04-07-13, 05:11 PM
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Oh, swell; So Shimano now has DS/NDS tension differences as bad as Campy. It is long overdue to move to 135mm mtn spacing on road, or even better, just jump straight to 145mm tandem spacing.
04-07-13, 05:14 PM
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Shimano historically had less dish than Campy and now 'I believe' the dish is a bit more than Campy in back setting upthe DS/NDS tension issue you say. There has been a lot of speculation about 135mm coming and believe it will..wider cassettes and disk brakes being two of the driving factors.
04-07-13, 05:17 PM
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If you are patient Immenseness, I am sure that Sram will not only come out with 11 speed, but will come out with an electronic version also. Then you can lament about that.
Yes Red throws are slightly shorter, I have Force on another bike and can hardly tell a difference. The big difference with the new Red is the front derailleur,The new Red Yaw derailleur, has no trim position on the shifter . Because it isnt needed. You can run the entire cassette in either large or small ring with 0 rub in the front derailleur. So while di2 self trims, red doesnt need to trim. I like the Yaw derailleur so much that I replaced the brand new red black front derailleur on the Force bike with the new yaw Red derailleur. Even with a Force shifter it works perfectly and again no rub in either ring.
Yes Red throws are slightly shorter, I have Force on another bike and can hardly tell a difference. The big difference with the new Red is the front derailleur,The new Red Yaw derailleur, has no trim position on the shifter . Because it isnt needed. You can run the entire cassette in either large or small ring with 0 rub in the front derailleur. So while di2 self trims, red doesnt need to trim. I like the Yaw derailleur so much that I replaced the brand new red black front derailleur on the Force bike with the new yaw Red derailleur. Even with a Force shifter it works perfectly and again no rub in either ring.
04-07-13, 05:18 PM
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See, I like the doubletap mechanism, I just don't like how bad the front shifting is. That, too, is claimed to be better now, but I already have 5700 installed to replace my old Rival. What I REALLY want is 11-speed Ui2 (or Force electronic...) because, frankly, I'm more comfortable working with electrical cables than mechanical cable tension. Much less fussy. What's another charger, anyway? I'll put it next to my Forerunner, Edge, cell phone, toothbrush, my cell charger for the other room, my three laptop chargers...
Pfah, I just wish they'd make it microUSB. Or is it?
Pfah, I just wish they'd make it microUSB. Or is it?
04-07-13, 05:20 PM
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Yeah...they really do play off each other...interesting game of cat and mouse.
Shimano historically had less dish than Campy and now 'I believe' the dish is a bit more than Campy in back setting upthe DS/NDS tension issue you say. There has been a lot of speculation about 135mm coming and believe it will..wider cassettes and disk brakes being two of the driving factors.
Shimano historically had less dish than Campy and now 'I believe' the dish is a bit more than Campy in back setting upthe DS/NDS tension issue you say. There has been a lot of speculation about 135mm coming and believe it will..wider cassettes and disk brakes being two of the driving factors.
04-07-13, 05:26 PM
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If d/a 7900 doesnt need to be trimmed, then why all the hoopla over the electronic system self trimming feature? does the 9000 still have the detent in the shifter for trim?
04-07-13, 05:32 PM
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I am behind in you the wheel building category but am considering stepping up a bit. I in fact ordered a Park TS-2.2 today...and will pick up some other stuff shortly. Thanks
04-07-13, 05:32 PM
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Dumb question, but why isn't 2:1 lacing more popular?
04-07-13, 05:37 PM
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As to the improvement in shifting of Di2...everybody that has lived with it, say it is true. Even though you maybe able to 'get by' without trimming the front derailleur on mechanical groupsets, with E shifting, the front derailleur moves as you traverse the cassette in back....which is clearly better than any non trim mech front derailleur. Also, Campy mechanical groupsets I have ridden do require a touch up trim in front....my experience. To me, this isn't a big deal either way.
Last edited by Campag4life; 04-07-13 at 05:41 PM.
04-07-13, 05:52 PM
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A point is not required, this is the 41.
that being said, if you haven't tried the new Red with Ergo shifters and yaw FD, you haven't tried the new Red. I just love mine, and left shimano for it. I did not, however, have the Di2 group. I can't imagine anything that shifts faster, or more emphatical when it hits the gear. I just love it.
04-07-13, 06:04 PM
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