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Why the war between drivers and cyclists?

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Why the war between drivers and cyclists?

Old 06-02-13, 09:54 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by genec
Did it ever occur to you that they are speaking metaphorically... just as sports announcers use war terms to describe the play on the field?
Maybe you haven't noticed but for the most part professional sports announcers have dropped using the bombastic war metaphors to describe game play at least for the last several years.
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Old 06-02-13, 10:00 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Maybe you haven't noticed but for the most part professional sports announcers have dropped using the bombastic war metaphors to describe game play at least for the last several years.
I never liked "wars" starting with the war on poverty, through the wars on crime, drugs, the culture wars, and so on. However, I find the use of war language even less apt when the country has folks dying in a real war.
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Old 06-02-13, 10:06 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by UberGeek
3 years of commuting by bike, and I've yet to encounter this motorist who is at war with cyclists. Two instances of ignorant drivers, but they impacted the other cars on the road at the time, and not just me.

Not saying there's no moron drivers. I've seen them on the highways and while driving. None openly hostile to cyclists, however. But, I'm sure there are some, I just doubt it's very widespread. Either that, or I just lucked out with where I'm living.
Only 3 years? Give it some time. Plus your roads may be well enough designed to reduce the problem.

My first 14 years had no problems with the exception of the Washington DC area. The last 17 years have seen several drivers intentionally run myself and other cyclist off the road, including physical assaults. It has taken criminal prosecution to end some of their misguided behavior.
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Old 06-02-13, 10:12 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Maybe you haven't noticed but for the most part professional sports announcers have dropped using the bombastic war metaphors to describe game play at least for the last several years.
Don't you know, not even the government calls wars, wars anymore. There is no war on terror, it is an overseas contingency operation. There are no terrorist shootings, it is just work place violence. The current sports announcers are just following their dictated PC guidance from this government.
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Old 06-02-13, 11:31 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by hallux
I said it before, SHARE THE ROAD goes both ways. Motorists should be aware of cyclists (I was as evidenced by my intent to alert but not alarm them). Cyclists should be aware of, and move right for, motorists when possible (and it was in this case, they just chose to be a$$holes).

What if (and this wasn't the case, but what if it was) I was a volunteer fireman approaching on my way to the firehouse down the road to respond to a call? A honk on the horn would be warranted (firefighter responding to a call is an emergency situation, no? though I DO understand they can't speed excessively), and their choice to obstruct the lane would delay arrival to the house.
I'm gonna give this a try, CB....

Hallux, you proceed from a false assumption, that being that cars are pre-eminent on the road. The situation you describe HAS BEEN EXPLAINED to you as a cautionary move BY THE CYCLIST to PREVENT A POTENTIAL "CLOSE PASS" in an area of limited visibility. Just because you, as a driver, feel it was impeding does not make it so. YOUR OPINION does not safety, or LAW, make. And since the cyclists' personal safety is what's at stake in this instance, IT'S NOT UP TO YOU. IT'S UP TO THEM. YOU, at the time as well as here and now, are the one who has chosen be an a$$hole.

Originally Posted by hallux
Spoken like one of the "I own the road because I'm on a bicycle" types. The only time I've honked at cyclists were the occasions noted, because they were riding 2 abreast. I also slowed and waited for an opportunity to pass them, which could have been expedited by the cyclists following the law to ride single file while being overtaken. And if the shoulder wasn't safe due to "obstruction", how could one be on the shoulder and not the other?

I can understand the need to make yourself as visible as possible, but at what point is it going too far? On that road, even for a vehicle going the 45 MPH limit, if cyclists were 2 abreast in the wrong spot of that curve as the car is coming it can spell disaster.
And with the WRONG DRIVER (for example, a drunk), standing with their bikes on the shoulder can be equally deadly. Such things HAVE HAPPENED. Look up Ray Howland, from Florida.

You are DEAD WRONG if you think your approach and/or 'horn tap' requires cyclists to IMMEDIATELY MOVE OVER FOR YOU; as I said earlier, drivers and cars are NOT pre-eminent on the road. ROADS WERE NOT MADE JUST FOR CARS, LEARN THIS. NOT EVEN PRIMARILY!

Originally Posted by hallux
Maybe I won't ride on the road then. I guess my idea of riding safely (ride the shoulder where possible, single file, signal turns) really isn't riding safely
You are free to ride on whatever non-interstate freeway shoulder you wish; however, to maintain this is a 'safety rule' is ridiculous. If that's your idea of safety, then do it. If you think your ideas of safety are THE STANDARD for all of us, you are asking for a smackdown. As a rider with more experience than you have, I can tell you what works for me, but I'll be damned if I'll tell you that's how YOU need to ride! The ONLY time I'd tell you how to ride is if what you were doing endangered my kids while they rode with me.
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Old 06-02-13, 11:50 PM
  #106  
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How the HELL is it possible to have a CLOSE pass on a 4 foot shoulder beside a 12 foot CAR lane ???
Preach your LAB religion in church.
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Old 06-02-13, 11:50 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Yes, that's exactly what the law says. His judgement has to be reasonable, and he may possibly be called to justify it to a law enforcement official or court, but it depends on the cyclist's judgement. His, not your's.
That is what I have argued for a long time, which is why I 'take the lane'.
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Old 06-02-13, 11:53 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
How the HELL is it possible to have a CLOSE pass on a 4 foot shoulder beside a 12 foot CAR lane ???
Preach your LAB religion in church.
It is possible, when there is debris' on the shoulder, and despite those four feet, a cyclist will have to ride around the debris'.
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Old 06-02-13, 11:58 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
How the HELL is it possible to have a CLOSE pass on a 4 foot shoulder beside a 12 foot CAR lane ???
Preach your LAB religion in church.
The lane looked to be 10 feet wide and the shoulder at places looked less than four feet.

Look at where this car is driving as he would have approached the cyclist. His tires on the line, his wing mirror 6 inches in the shoulder, the cyclist in the center of the shoulder with a 2 foot width handle bar and shoulders = a 6 inch pass between the mirror and the handlebar/cyclist left arm.
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=42.89...21922&t=m&z=11[/QUOTE]

Preach your motorist superiority religion crap in your anti-church.
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Last edited by CB HI; 06-03-13 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 06-03-13, 05:29 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Only 3 years? Give it some time. Plus your roads may be well enough designed to reduce the problem.

My first 14 years had no problems with the exception of the Washington DC area. The last 17 years have seen several drivers intentionally run myself and other cyclist off the road, including physical assaults. It has taken criminal prosecution to end some of their misguided behavior.
Is it you are suddenly encountering drivers who are waging war on cyclists, or that you've become more cynical?

I tend to not attribute to malice, whenever something can be attributed to plain stupidity.

But, as I said, I'm sure there are some vindictive drivers out there. I've see a few videos of truck drivers goosing the engine to belch black smoke at cyclists. I've also seen the road raging drivers videos on youtube.

I do tend to think it's a matter of culture, though. Buffalo isn't particularly bike-friendly (Shy of a few spots, thanks to GoBikeBuffalo), but people here tend to be friendlier, and more courteous. People tend to extend courtesy to all road users, as an extension of extending courtesy generally. Cyclists tend to let cars pass, and cars tend to extend cyclists and peds a wide berth.

But, who knows? Maybe I'm just naive?
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Old 06-03-13, 04:02 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by UberGeek
Is it you are suddenly encountering drivers who are waging war on cyclists, or that you've become more cynical?

I tend to not attribute to malice, whenever something can be attributed to plain stupidity.

But, as I said, I'm sure there are some vindictive drivers out there. I've see a few videos of truck drivers goosing the engine to belch black smoke at cyclists. I've also seen the road raging drivers videos on youtube.

I do tend to think it's a matter of culture, though. Buffalo isn't particularly bike-friendly (Shy of a few spots, thanks to GoBikeBuffalo), but people here tend to be friendlier, and more courteous. People tend to extend courtesy to all road users, as an extension of extending courtesy generally. Cyclists tend to let cars pass, and cars tend to extend cyclists and peds a wide berth.

But, who knows? Maybe I'm just naive?
I ride the same way commuting as I did in 1982. I had no problems in several areas and then 2 years of problems in Washington DC and then no problems for another 4 years in other areas.

There are way of telling idiots from those who intentionally endanger cyclist, it really is not that hard.

Most of road raging seems to come from traffic jams cause by motorist themselves, they just take out their rage on the easy target, cyclist. These people are the same ones that were bullies in grade school, but never grew out of it.
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Old 06-04-13, 12:51 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by genec
Did it ever occur to you that they are speaking metaphorically... just as sports announcers use war terms to describe the play on the field?
Yep. I even know the difference between metaphor and simile. I also know what happens when one tribe deems another the enemy. Do you?
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Old 06-04-13, 01:02 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Maybe you haven't noticed but for the most part professional sports announcers have dropped using the bombastic war metaphors to describe game play at least for the last several years.
After what, decades of using such war metaphors?

Me thinks some folks are just getting their panties in a bunch. Next someone will be talking about "tribes..."

Last edited by genec; 06-05-13 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 06-04-13, 01:07 PM
  #114  
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Just in case Hallux is still reading this thread and still not convinced here is another perspective.

Alot of the roads that I ride are borderline share-able. That is as long as drivers are considerate of rider safety, pass at safe speeds, provide proper clearance and are paying attention. But a significant minority of drivers in my area do not exercise a high degree of concern for my safety.

So on many of the roads where I could ride FRAP I take the lane. Because I know that if I don't, many drivers, as a result of inattention, impatience or malice, will pass in an unsafe manner. Also if I am passed unsafely where I have judged that it is safe to share the lane, I revise my opinion and proceed to take the lane.

So from behind the wheel you don't see the whole picture. You have to ride a mile in my shoes.

Last edited by jerseyJim; 06-04-13 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 06-04-13, 01:46 PM
  #115  
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There ain't no war here...the drivers that do stupid things to cyclists do similar sorts of stupid crap to other motorists, and pedestrians at crosswalks, and everyone else who might be on the road. Stupid people just do stupid things, and the rest of us have to deal with them.

It's just more obvious when a driver does it to another non-driver, because they have two tons of metal to do it with and the other poor schmuck has a pair of shoes or a 20 lb. bike.
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Old 06-05-13, 04:16 PM
  #116  
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[QUOTE=turbo1889;15669319A whole bunch of drivers (and cyclists) who if they thought they could get away with it without having to suffer retaliatory consequences would gladly engage in sufficiently more active hostilities against the other side.[/QUOTE]

When I smoke the dust from the inside of a bicycle tire tube, I imagine a world where I have a magic wand that I can wave at cars and turn them all into bicycles permanently..........
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Old 06-06-13, 12:40 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by johnnymoses
When I smoke the dust from the inside of a bicycle tire tube, I imagine a world where I have a magic wand that I can wave at cars and turn them all into bicycles permanently..........
Do the drivers become the saddles?
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Old 06-06-13, 09:41 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by turbo1889
In the mind of a certain percentage of motorists - the war is most certainly real and they consider themselves to be activists on the right side of that war and feel fully justified in their criminal actions of harassment and violence against cyclists.
Horsepucky. The so-called "war" is mostly confined to the written word, sometimes spilled over to verbal public debate, but rarely on the roadways...where it is confined to the militant ninnies on both sides who don't understand the difference between rhetoric and reality.

I've seen war...you keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
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Old 06-06-13, 09:44 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
You'd have to be a cyclist to understand.
Let me know when you get some experience outside of your own little fishbowl...not to mention get over your aggressive nature...then you might understand that most of your war is of your own making.
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Old 06-06-13, 09:46 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
cyclists who like to imagine that they are warriors, living a life of danger, fighting off the bad guys everyday
Hit the nail on the head there, old sport.
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Old 06-06-13, 09:48 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Don in Austin
Why could you not just fall behind and pass when it was safe?

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Motorist superiority complex.
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Old 06-06-13, 09:52 AM
  #122  
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I hate to say this, because I firmly agree with Chipcom and I-like-to-bike that this stuff is all self aggrandizing drama, but I feel like I've been at war this week. I rarely have angry driver interactions, but I've had two nut balls in 3 days. Both were similar - both passed to the point where there was contact, slight, with things attached to my bike. Both did it to display aggression. Both yelled various themes of "get off the road." I don't understand either of these incidents - both were while I was commuting in town, both had ample space to pass safely, or wait a nano-second to pass safely, both were in a rush to beat me to the next light. I didn't really hold either of them up at all - they were just nutter butter. The one today was also behaving aggressively towards cars.

I really hope it's just a statistical blip.

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Old 06-06-13, 09:52 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by hallux
OK, the law doesn't say possible, it says they SHOULD ride single-file when being overtaken by a vehicle.
"Should" is subject to the cyclist's perception of what is safe. If the lane is wide enough to share safely, share it, if not, own it. It's not rocket surgery. You, as a driver, don't get to dictate to the cyclist what is safe. However, you, as the passing driver, are responsible for ensuring that you pass safely.
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Old 06-06-13, 09:54 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I hate to say this, because I firmly agree with Chipcom and I-like-to-bike that this stuff is all self aggrandizing drama, but I feel like I've been at war this week. I rarely have angry driver interactions, but I've had two nut balls in 3 days. Both were similar - both passed to the point where there was contact, slight, with things attached to my bike. Both did it to display aggression. Both yelled various themes of "get off the road." I don't understand either of these incidents - both were while I was commuting in town, where they beat me to the next light. I didn't really hold either of them up at all - they were just nutter butter. The one today was also behaving aggressively towards cars.

I really hope it's just a statistical blip.
We deal with nutballs, morons and downright jerks everyday in many varied activities. It's part of life in our society...not a war. Some days you get the bull, some days you get the horn, other days you get Charlie Sheen.
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Old 06-06-13, 09:56 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by chipcom
We deal with nutballs, morons and downright jerks everyday in many varied activities. It's part of life in our society...not a war. Some days you get the bull, some days you get the horn, other days you get Charlie Sheen.
There's the rub - it's a numbers game. If .1% of people are completely incompetent, and you deal with 1000 people in a week...the law of averages say you're getting one. I know dang well that you're right - it's just that the two so close together have me spooked.
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