Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Why the war between drivers and cyclists?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Why the war between drivers and cyclists?

Old 06-06-13, 09:57 AM
  #126  
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by hallux
I said it before, SHARE THE ROAD goes both ways.
Yet you want cyclists to yield to you and get off the road and onto the shoulder. You DO realize that a shoulder is not part of the road, right? I didn't think so...see, you get to learn lots of new things as you evolve from a clueless motorist into a competent motorist/cyclist.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 06-06-13, 09:59 AM
  #127  
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
There's the rub - it's a numbers game. If .1% of people are completely incompetent, and you deal with 1000 people in a week...the law of averages say you're getting one. I know dang well that you're right - it's just that the two so close together have me spooked.
Your numbers are off. My daddy always taught me that in any given endeavor, there is always 10 percent who just can't get with the program. If you're getting just .1% you are doing great!
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 06-06-13, 10:00 AM
  #128  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
Heh - I was using it as an extreme example. It's definitely much higher.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 06-06-13, 11:17 AM
  #129  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
We deal with nutballs, morons and downright jerks everyday in many varied activities. It's part of life in our society...not a war. Some days you get the bull, some days you get the horn, other days you get Charlie Sheen.
Yeah, Chip, but not all the nutballs, morons and downright jerks are in a position to kill you... I can tolerate the guy that forgets to put cheese on the pizza, or the moron that can't make change when I throw in the 27 cents... or the nutball that brings 15 items to the 12 items or less lane... but the guy thinking he owns the road, and bears down on me with his monster truck... well, that's a wee bit different, eh?

No, indeed it is not a war... but dammit, how about if some of those idiots out there realize that I am just as human as they are, and I have every right to use the same PUBLIC roads. (Of course I suppose some of those idiots might be somewhat sub human... )
genec is offline  
Old 06-06-13, 11:58 AM
  #130  
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
Yeah, Chip, but not all the nutballs, morons and downright jerks are in a position to kill you... I can tolerate the guy that forgets to put cheese on the pizza, or the moron that can't make change when I throw in the 27 cents... or the nutball that brings 15 items to the 12 items or less lane... but the guy thinking he owns the road, and bears down on me with his monster truck... well, that's a wee bit different, eh?

No, indeed it is not a war... but dammit, how about if some of those idiots out there realize that I am just as human as they are, and I have every right to use the same PUBLIC roads. (Of course I suppose some of those idiots might be somewhat sub human... )
Perhaps if cyclists would also remember that drivers are human (even the nutballs), rather than treating them all as the enemy in a war, we might make some progress.

Splain to me how that guy in the monster truck is more dangerous to you on a bike, than say walking, jogging, riding a horse, or driving a buggy on the same road, Gene. It isn't about the vehicle or the activity...it's about people. Some are cool, some not so much. That same idiot in the monster truck will probably be an idiot on a bicycle too.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 06-06-13, 12:32 PM
  #131  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
Perhaps if cyclists would also remember that drivers are human (even the nutballs), rather than treating them all as the enemy in a war, we might make some progress.

Splain to me how that guy in the monster truck is more dangerous to you on a bike, than say walking, jogging, riding a horse, or driving a buggy on the same road, Gene. It isn't about the vehicle or the activity...it's about people. Some are cool, some not so much. That same idiot in the monster truck will probably be an idiot on a bicycle too.
The guy in the monster truck isn't more dangerous... it is as I said... "but the guy thinking he owns the road, and bears down on me with his monster truck... " take it all in context, Chip... it was the "thinking that he owned the road" part that made him dangerous, not the truck.

As far as "walking, jogging, riding a horse, or driving a buggy on the same road;" if the guy in the monster truck chooses to bear down on them, they too are in jeopardy.

It is the fact that some folks don't treat each other as equals... as fellow humans, that indeed is what makes the difference. The monster truck is just the metaphorical "weapon" of choice.

As far as this statement... "That same idiot in the monster truck will probably be an idiot on a bicycle too." All well and good... then we are truly equals... it is being an idiot with 6000 pounds of moving metal that makes the guy dangerous to me or anyone else.
genec is offline  
Old 06-06-13, 04:15 PM
  #132  
hagen2456
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
Perhaps if cyclists would also remember that drivers are human (even the nutballs), rather than treating them all as the enemy in a war, we might make some progress.

Splain to me how that guy in the monster truck is more dangerous to you on a bike, than say walking, jogging, riding a horse, or driving a buggy on the same road, Gene. It isn't about the vehicle or the activity...it's about people. Some are cool, some not so much. That same idiot in the monster truck will probably be an idiot on a bicycle too.
Well, there IS, after all, the basic fact that cars are more dangerous to their surroundings than are bikes, no matter what.
hagen2456 is offline  
Old 06-06-13, 04:23 PM
  #133  
hagen2456
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
Your numbers are off. My daddy always taught me that in any given endeavor, there is always 10 percent who just can't get with the program. If you're getting just .1% you are doing great!
Your dad made a very conservative guess. As half of any given large population is gifted with an IQ below 100, there's bound to be quite a few very stupid people out there who have still managed to get a drivers license and a car. That already in itself makes them dangerous. Of these, again quite a few will be pissed off at the world at large because they just don't get what's going on around them. Those are deadly.

My guess is a good deal closer to 20% dangerous, and 5% deadly.
hagen2456 is offline  
Old 06-07-13, 08:33 AM
  #134  
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by hagen2456
Well, there IS, after all, the basic fact that cars are more dangerous to their surroundings than are bikes, no matter what.
Ok now go back and read what I wrote and try again...here let me paraphrase: how does the activity you are doing...ie walking cycling, wacking off, etc. make the wacko in the truck more or less dangerous?
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 06-07-13, 08:34 AM
  #135  
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by hagen2456
Your dad made a very conservative guess. As half of any given large population is gifted with an IQ below 100, there's bound to be quite a few very stupid people out there who have still managed to get a drivers license and a car. That already in itself makes them dangerous. Of these, again quite a few will be pissed off at the world at large because they just don't get what's going on around them. Those are deadly.

My guess is a good deal closer to 20% dangerous, and 5% deadly.
Many moons of experience bears out 10% as a good number. YMMV
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 06-07-13, 09:50 AM
  #136  
rekmeyata
Senior Member
 
rekmeyata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 9,180

Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 242 Times in 195 Posts
I don't see any wars going on, sure there are a few drivers who hate cyclists but those are far and few between. Problem is the perception of some motorists is that cyclists are rude and poor at following the rules of road...and in general their right! I ride a bike and I drive a car, and I see from both sides. I can't begin to tell you how many cyclists I see that run stop signs and lights in the path of oncoming cars, swerve in front of cars, cut across the bow of cars on heavy traffic forcing them the slam on their brakes, all kinds of crap that if that person was driving a car it would have been considered reckless driving which carries a huge fine and penalties similar to a DUI! But a lot of cyclists think it's ok to be reckless.
rekmeyata is offline  
Old 06-09-13, 07:54 AM
  #137  
bhtooefr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 758

Bikes: 2002 Dahon Boardwalk 1, 2003 Sun EZ-Sport Limited, 2011 TerraTrike Path 8, 2018 Gazelle Arroyo C8 HMB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
For what it's worth, a safe, legal pass of a cyclist in any lane narrower than 14 feet wide (the minimum standard for a "wide outside lane" as cycling infrastructure) requires entering the oncoming traffic lane anyway. And, I believe that there is precedent in some states for cyclists taking any lane that doesn't meet the WOL standard, without other justification.
bhtooefr is offline  
Old 06-10-13, 10:44 PM
  #138  
rekmeyata
Senior Member
 
rekmeyata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 9,180

Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 242 Times in 195 Posts
Originally Posted by hagen2456
Your dad made a very conservative guess. As half of any given large population is gifted with an IQ below 100, there's bound to be quite a few very stupid people out there who have still managed to get a drivers license and a car. That already in itself makes them dangerous. Of these, again quite a few will be pissed off at the world at large because they just don't get what's going on around them. Those are deadly.

My guess is a good deal closer to 20% dangerous, and 5% deadly.
I knew some very intelligent people who can't drive worth a darn and some stupid people that would make you think you're watching Dale Earnhardt.
rekmeyata is offline  
Old 06-10-13, 11:22 PM
  #139  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by bhtooefr
For what it's worth, a safe, legal pass of a cyclist in any lane narrower than 14 feet wide (the minimum standard for a "wide outside lane" as cycling infrastructure) requires entering the oncoming traffic lane anyway.
Don't believe its worth much. Can you name the traffic code/law that contains the verbiage that specifies this alleged requirement for a "safe, legal pass of a cyclist"?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 06-11-13, 04:38 AM
  #140  
bhtooefr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 758

Bikes: 2002 Dahon Boardwalk 1, 2003 Sun EZ-Sport Limited, 2011 TerraTrike Path 8, 2018 Gazelle Arroyo C8 HMB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
AASHTO and FHWA standards for roadway design, combined with the "as far right as practicable" and safe passing laws.
bhtooefr is offline  
Old 06-11-13, 09:15 AM
  #141  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by bhtooefr
AASHTO and FHWA standards for roadway design, combined with the "as far right as practicable" and safe passing laws.
AASHTO and FHWA standards for roadway design are NOT traffic code or law; there is NOT a requirement to incorporate those standards into traffic code; roadway users are NOT required to read, know or comply with AASHTO and FHWA standards.

Name any "as far right as practicable" and safe passing laws that states that "a safe, legal pass of a cyclist in any lane narrower than 14 feet wide requires entering the oncoming traffic lane."
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 06-11-13, 05:26 PM
  #142  
bhtooefr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 758

Bikes: 2002 Dahon Boardwalk 1, 2003 Sun EZ-Sport Limited, 2011 TerraTrike Path 8, 2018 Gazelle Arroyo C8 HMB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I was under the impression that there was case law supporting it, where the AASHTO and FHWA standards were used as a defense for someone taking the lane under 14 feet wide? I don't have any links to such case law, though, and I'm not sure if any motorists have had judgments against them for not passing in the oncoming lane for a lane less than 14 feet wide.

Which, case law is just as good as law in the jurisdictions of the courts that made such case law.
bhtooefr is offline  
Old 06-11-13, 06:57 PM
  #143  
Chris516
24-Speed Machine
 
Chris516's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Wash. Grove, MD
Posts: 6,058

Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Why the war.....why the war!!!!

Today I was on a two-lane 30mph road, just outside of the town live in, going 20mph and approaching a 20mph zone. A big 4x4 pickup was on my tail. It was already obvious he wanted me out of his way, considering how he was gunning the engine. So he 'steps on the gas', pulls into the oncoming lane, passes me. Then, He pulls back into the correct lane, intentionally slams on the brakes in the hopes I would rear-end him(knowing he could get away with it if I had crashed into his truck). Then he stepped on the gas intentionally blowing a lot of black smoke.

I don't consider that to be a mistake on the driver's part.
Chris516 is offline  
Old 06-11-13, 07:05 PM
  #144  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,544

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5703 Post(s)
Liked 2,426 Times in 1,341 Posts
Originally Posted by Chris516
...
I don't consider that to be a mistake on the driver's part.
It sounds intentional, but IME is exceptional. Consider it a reminder that there are more horses' axles than horses out there.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 06-11-13, 09:58 PM
  #145  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by bhtooefr
I was under the impression that there was case law supporting it, where the AASHTO and FHWA standards were used as a defense for someone taking the lane under 14 feet wide? I don't have any links to such case law, though, and I'm not sure if any motorists have had judgments against them for not passing in the oncoming lane for a lane less than 14 feet wide.

Which, case law is just as good as law in the jurisdictions of the courts that made such case law.
IOW = No law or traffic code implements your "impression" (about a requirement for every motorist to enter the oncoming traffic lane in order to legally pass any cyclist on a road less than 14' wide.)
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
flying_rhino
Commuting
20
01-10-19 11:22 AM
Ninety5rpm
Advocacy & Safety
75
01-16-18 07:01 PM
closetbiker
Advocacy & Safety
6
09-26-10 08:41 PM
Bekologist
Advocacy & Safety
31
08-27-10 09:12 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.