Catastrophic Carbon Fibre Frame Failures
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,457
Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 314 Times
in
241 Posts
This reminds me of a guy I saw at our biggest LBS about 8 years ago.
He brought in a average beginner bike that had been DRIVEN over in his driveway. LOL
He was begging them to make it rideable. hahahahaha
He brought in a average beginner bike that had been DRIVEN over in his driveway. LOL
He was begging them to make it rideable. hahahahaha
#52
Senior Member
About 12 years ago a friend of mine was on a "B" pace ride with other club members. He was riding a relatively new full CF bike, a model that has been used in the pro peloton. It had never been crashed. He was a conservative rider who weighed maybe 170. While slowing down for a red light, not a panic stop, the head tube instantaneously broke free from the top and down tubes, and Jay was over the bars. The impact of his head (yes, helmet in use) on the pavement broke his neck, and he was rendered a ventilator-dependent quadriplegic. He died of complications related to his paralysis a few months after the accident.
Data point of one.
Data point of one.
Likes For kaos joe:
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Siberia West .. aka Central Wisconsin... USA
Posts: 309
Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Appalachian, 1998 Litespeed BlueRidge.. 1977? Schwinn LeTour 12.2 'Rain Daze'
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times
in
14 Posts
About 12 years ago a friend of mine was on a "B" pace ride with other club members. He was riding a relatively new full CF bike, a model that has been used in the pro peloton. It had never been crashed. He was a conservative rider who weighed maybe 170. While slowing down for a red light, not a panic stop, the head tube instantaneously broke free from the top and down tubes, and Jay was over the bars. The impact of his head (yes, helmet in use) on the pavement broke his neck, and he was rendered a ventilator-dependent quadriplegic. He died of complications related to his paralysis a few months after the accident.
Data point of one.
Data point of one.
I see this thread now is failing silent... above incident sez it all. My MAIN ***** w carbon junk is it's sold MINUS the warnings up front... buried in super fine print gibberish.. most consumers have not a glue for the potential consequences.
THAT.. is no way to do business in this USA. We in reality have FEW bike companies anymore.. just 'marketing' concerns using names earned from the past.
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,379
Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 667 Post(s)
Liked 529 Times
in
355 Posts
About 12 years ago a friend of mine was on a "B" pace ride with other club members. He was riding a relatively new full CF bike, a model that has been used in the pro peloton. It had never been crashed. He was a conservative rider who weighed maybe 170. While slowing down for a red light, not a panic stop, the head tube instantaneously broke free from the top and down tubes, and Jay was over the bars. The impact of his head (yes, helmet in use) on the pavement broke his neck, and he was rendered a ventilator-dependent quadriplegic. He died of complications related to his paralysis a few months after the accident.
Data point of one.
Data point of one.
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Norcal
Posts: 207
Bikes: Moots Vamoots RSL 2018, Passoni Titanio 2020
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times
in
8 Posts
I cracked one carbon fork (Enve) on my Moots. Discovered the crack while cleaning up my bike. Enve replaced it in under warranty. I mainly ride on Diablo (East Bay, California).
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,683
Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Vortex Chorus 10, 1995 DeBernardi Cromor S/S
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times
in
446 Posts
And then, there is the grave danger that carbon frame bikes pose to car owners who forget to remove their bikes from roof racke before driving into their garage
https://www.******.com/r/Wellthatsuc...ur_bike_still/
I mean, after seeing this picture I would never buy a carbon fibre bike, I value my car too much
https://www.******.com/r/Wellthatsuc...ur_bike_still/
I mean, after seeing this picture I would never buy a carbon fibre bike, I value my car too much
#58
Senior Member
A mutual friend of Jay & myself had an identical frame to his. The LBS who sold both frames called her up so the frame could be "inspected" and then quietly replaced it. I don't know if this was at the behest of the manufacturer and I don't know what the legal disposition was regarding Jay's case.
#59
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Allen, TX
Posts: 2,624
Bikes: 2021 S-Works Turbo Creo SL, 2020 Specialized Roubaix Expert
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 762 Post(s)
Liked 3,982 Times
in
1,415 Posts
About 12 years ago a friend of mine was on a "B" pace ride with other club members. He was riding a relatively new full CF bike, a model that has been used in the pro peloton. It had never been crashed. He was a conservative rider who weighed maybe 170. While slowing down for a red light, not a panic stop, the head tube instantaneously broke free from the top and down tubes, and Jay was over the bars. The impact of his head (yes, helmet in use) on the pavement broke his neck, and he was rendered a ventilator-dependent quadriplegic. He died of complications related to his paralysis a few months after the accident.
Data point of one.
Data point of one.
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,338
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2429 Post(s)
Liked 2,889 Times
in
1,646 Posts
Catastrophic failures have happened with many other frame materials, too, such as my friend's steel fork snapping off at the crown on a fast downhill. He didn't die, but he was in the hospital for quite a while.
Maybe such problems occur mostly with frames made of any material that are built to be as light as possible. I know that I'd be more inclined to buy a carbon frame or a steel frame that's a couple of hundred grams heavier if it came with a lifetime warranty.
Which reminds me of a story I've told in a similar previous discussion. In the mid-'80s, a customer brought a steel high-end Italian-made Bianchi into the bike shop where I worked. The frame had a crack at the seat lug. Open-and-shut warranty issue.
I showed the frame to the Bianchi sales rep, who agreed to cover it under warranty and arranged for a free replacement frame to be sent to the shop. I said, "So what happens now? Do you send the frame back to Bianchi in Italy?"
He said, "No---we just throw it away." I was surprised and asked, "So how do you get reimbursed for the replacement frame?" He said "We sell them in the U.S. with a lifetime warranty because that's the standard practice here. Bianchi doesn't warranty any frames, anywhere."
In fact, he said, Bianchi's Italian management found the whole idea of warranty coverage of racing frames amusing. They once told Bianchi USA, jokingly, that "We can sell you racing frames with a lifetime warranty if you like. They'll weigh a kilo or so more, though."
Maybe such problems occur mostly with frames made of any material that are built to be as light as possible. I know that I'd be more inclined to buy a carbon frame or a steel frame that's a couple of hundred grams heavier if it came with a lifetime warranty.
Which reminds me of a story I've told in a similar previous discussion. In the mid-'80s, a customer brought a steel high-end Italian-made Bianchi into the bike shop where I worked. The frame had a crack at the seat lug. Open-and-shut warranty issue.
I showed the frame to the Bianchi sales rep, who agreed to cover it under warranty and arranged for a free replacement frame to be sent to the shop. I said, "So what happens now? Do you send the frame back to Bianchi in Italy?"
He said, "No---we just throw it away." I was surprised and asked, "So how do you get reimbursed for the replacement frame?" He said "We sell them in the U.S. with a lifetime warranty because that's the standard practice here. Bianchi doesn't warranty any frames, anywhere."
In fact, he said, Bianchi's Italian management found the whole idea of warranty coverage of racing frames amusing. They once told Bianchi USA, jokingly, that "We can sell you racing frames with a lifetime warranty if you like. They'll weigh a kilo or so more, though."
#61
Occam's Rotor
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
My 87 Bianchi cracked at the front derailleur braze-on (in 1989). They warrantied it, but it took about a year. They replaced it with a heavier frame. It has been fine, and I considered it an upgrade (SLX vs. SL).
Last edited by Cyclist0108; 07-03-20 at 11:08 PM.
Likes For Cyclist0108:
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,059
Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18320 Post(s)
Liked 15,298 Times
in
7,231 Posts
Someone wasn’t breast fed.
Likes For indyfabz:
#63
Senior Member
apparently it didn't, looks like the chain chew into the catcher itself a bit too.
This is a Trek Emonda frame, their weightweeini frame, probabaly 800g, but that's what you get for light weight anything.
He now bought another frame, a steel Cinelli Vigorelli, it's about 2000g, and honestly the Vigorelli feels more supple and absorb road imperfections with a resounding "thump thump".
This is a Trek Emonda frame, their weightweeini frame, probabaly 800g, but that's what you get for light weight anything.
He now bought another frame, a steel Cinelli Vigorelli, it's about 2000g, and honestly the Vigorelli feels more supple and absorb road imperfections with a resounding "thump thump".
Likes For aclinjury:
#65
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,093 Times
in
2,325 Posts
I’ve seen a number of those in nearly every other material as well.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1217 Post(s)
Liked 1,281 Times
in
653 Posts
Just wondering how durable a sub 800 gram frame would be when made from metal. Or correspondingly how strong a carbon frame would be when made to equivalent weights of metal.
#67
Occam's Rotor
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
My wife's Specialized Sirrus Carbon Comp. weights about the same as my steel bike. The frame seems extremely robust.
#68
Generally bewildered
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 3,036
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1152 Post(s)
Liked 340 Times
in
250 Posts
I "carported" my roof-mounted Ti frame/CF fork ~7 years ago. Roof rack was a fork-clamp model, so the saddle was the highest part of the structure. Fortunately I wasn't traveling fast into the carport - probably travelled a further 6"-1 ft after hearing the "crunch". Saddle was twisted to one side and ripped a bit, the bike tray was twisted and shoved back, and a couple of the pillars for the factory roof rails (and one the rails itself) were cracked. I repaired the rails by various means, and manually untwisted the tray, so the front and rear were largely parallel. The Ti frame looked OK - straight and no visible damage - my main concern was the fork, on which the force pulling the rack off the car had operated. It looked OK, but who knew? Given to it was ~13 years old (Reynolds Ouzo Pro), I figured that replacing it as a cautionary measure probably wasn't a bad idea (probably would've done it even if the fork had been newer, but the age of the fork made the decision easier). I found an NOS uncut Ouzo Pro on eBay (Independent Fabrication clearing out their old stock) for a relative bargain. Frame, saddle (with strategically located duct tape) and seat post still on the go - original fork cut up and consigned to the trash, replaced for way less than the cost of one dentists visit. My one regret is that I forgot to retrieve a perfectly good Chris King crown race before I trashed the old fork.
The shifting cables are getting a little fidgety on the Domane, and experience indicates that they need replacing (and that its a rough row to hoe to replace those things after they've broken). So today I plan on taking a 4th of July ride on the Lemond. One reason I got the Lemond was my skepticism about the durability of CF. It may be that in 100 years there are still viable CF frames from today around. But my LeMond frame will still be around if I don't crash it. BTW, I do intend to replace the front fork with a Ritchey at some point soon. And since its a 1" steer tube, I've been vultching (watching like a vulure) eBay for a 2001 or so Maillot Jaune or Zurich - 853 frames with a 1-1/8 inch steer tube. Anyway, I need to put red, white and blue crepe paper in the spokes for my ride so I've got to get cracking.
Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 07-04-20 at 10:25 AM.
Likes For WizardOfBoz:
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,379
Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 667 Post(s)
Liked 529 Times
in
355 Posts
So the things I have learned from this thread
· There are fewer carbon frame bikes in use than other types
· Racing bikes can’t be expected to have the same lifespan as types made for other uses
· Manufactures are still updating designs to improve durability when something fails
· Carbon bikes need to be handled with more care. Common issues like throwing a chain has rendered bikes unusable
· There are people on this site who have first hand knowledge of “unmolested” carbon frames “asploding”
The fact carbon bikes are less common yet account for the majority of the warranty repairs is telling. Carbon technology is still in its infancy when compared to other technologies. There aren’t any 40 year old carbon bikes to draw conclusions from. The longer a bike is used the greater the chance of it being "molested". Statistics concerning carbon durability might be biased by early technologies that are no longer used today.
As with all items concerning risk one needs to weigh the probability of something failing to the potential consequences of failure. Most carbon failures listed here were not life threatening. Some were. But without hard numbers of failures per mile it is impossible to quantify the relative risk of carbon vs. other materials.
The last thing that seems apparent to me at least
· Some people will ignore all of the above to avoid the perception of losing an internet argument
· There are fewer carbon frame bikes in use than other types
· Racing bikes can’t be expected to have the same lifespan as types made for other uses
· Manufactures are still updating designs to improve durability when something fails
· Carbon bikes need to be handled with more care. Common issues like throwing a chain has rendered bikes unusable
· There are people on this site who have first hand knowledge of “unmolested” carbon frames “asploding”
The fact carbon bikes are less common yet account for the majority of the warranty repairs is telling. Carbon technology is still in its infancy when compared to other technologies. There aren’t any 40 year old carbon bikes to draw conclusions from. The longer a bike is used the greater the chance of it being "molested". Statistics concerning carbon durability might be biased by early technologies that are no longer used today.
As with all items concerning risk one needs to weigh the probability of something failing to the potential consequences of failure. Most carbon failures listed here were not life threatening. Some were. But without hard numbers of failures per mile it is impossible to quantify the relative risk of carbon vs. other materials.
The last thing that seems apparent to me at least
· Some people will ignore all of the above to avoid the perception of losing an internet argument
#71
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times
in
5,053 Posts
#72
Senior Member
Yes I did the work myself. Cracks in the fork crown and the headrest area were fixed, I stiffened the power idler area, and cut the adjustable boom so far back for my shorter legs that I had to permanently bond it in place. I think the fork came out pretty nice.
#73
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Allen, TX
Posts: 2,624
Bikes: 2021 S-Works Turbo Creo SL, 2020 Specialized Roubaix Expert
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 762 Post(s)
Liked 3,982 Times
in
1,415 Posts
Yeah, that looks great! Well done.
#74
With a mighty wind
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 841 Times
in
475 Posts
1994 or so, a group of us freshmen were jumping our bikes at a hump near the parking spot of a local MTB trail.
Tall lanky guy lands and I think it was the headtube failed on him. **** was eaten. I think he got a few stitches and maybe a concussion.
1990's Giant Cadex with a 180-200lb rider catching air.
I think those were bonded to aluminum lugs if I remember correctly. I can't imagine something like that happening on even the cheapest open mold modern carbon frame.
Tall lanky guy lands and I think it was the headtube failed on him. **** was eaten. I think he got a few stitches and maybe a concussion.
1990's Giant Cadex with a 180-200lb rider catching air.
I think those were bonded to aluminum lugs if I remember correctly. I can't imagine something like that happening on even the cheapest open mold modern carbon frame.
#75
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,093 Times
in
2,325 Posts
The effort needed to remove them makes me wonder as well.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!