Need Some Help Identifying and Sorting Peugeot PX10
05-28-20, 05:57 PM
#26
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I'm gonna suggest a quick-and dirty expedient of installing whatever cheap/available longer stem (with appropriate bar) so as to get on the road and test the fit. Don't wrap the tape on the bars until this aspect of fit is verified comfortable.
The Kalloy/Soma/Origin8 "traditional" stems should all fit, and will get you a test-fit for under $20.
Note that 2cm difference in stem length is going to be quite noticeable. Even 1cm added will not go un-noticed!
I tend toward a sporting setup, and with my elbow in front of the saddle I see 1/2" to 1-1/2" between the rear "edge" of the bars and my fingertips.
The Kalloy/Soma/Origin8 "traditional" stems should all fit, and will get you a test-fit for under $20.
Note that 2cm difference in stem length is going to be quite noticeable. Even 1cm added will not go un-noticed!
I tend toward a sporting setup, and with my elbow in front of the saddle I see 1/2" to 1-1/2" between the rear "edge" of the bars and my fingertips.
05-29-20, 12:36 AM
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First thing to know, as Narhay noted, is that this is a French bike and therefore it uses 22.0 mm French stem size. Both Cinelli and 3TTT made French/22.0 stems, but vintage ones are going to be very hard to find and likely expensive. They were special order item BITD. One period correct hack was to use a regular (not french) 3TTT record stem, since they tended to be a bit undersized, and would usually fit into the steerer. IF you do this, make sure to use a matching bar, the clamp diameter will be different. (see other thread on 3ttt stems)
Another option that I may try on my PX10 is to get a SOMA stem. Maybe it's a bit undersized like the old 3ttt and the Origin8 already mentioned. If not, I'll remove the anodizing, sand it down, and polish it up. We're only talking 0.1 mm here... An advantage of these is that they have a longer than vintage quill. Since that frame size is pretty small for you, it will give you more options in fitting. Raising vintage stems to or over the limit is IMO always a bad idea.
AFA length, that's a fitting issue and can't really be done over the internet. At 6'3" you are going to need something like a 12 or 13cm I'd guess. For a ball park estimate you could try the old rule of thumb. Take your arm and butt your elbow against the front of the saddle. Extend your fingers out towards the handlebar. They should just barely touch the back of the bar. Pick a stem length that achieves this. For example, if they go 3cm past the back of the bars with the current stem, then you need a stem 3cm longer. That's just the 70s ROT though, might be ballpark, might be off. The competitive cyclist fit calculator is pretty good for a more modern approach.
Frankly I'd say the bike is too small for you, but if you in fact really do have a 34" inseam, not pant length, then that size is reasonable. Make sure of that before wasting any time on the wrong size bike.
My advice on the wheels is to not worry about what brand your rims are. Any racing bike more than 6 months old probably didn't have original rims on it anyway. These things came with sew ups of course. I had an identical 72 for years BTW, and only ever rode sew ups on it. Not the end of the world to put an appropriate looking clincher rim. Hubs are another story. I personally would not use shimano hubs, just for aesthetics. Normandy competitions were pretty good if you can find them. Make sure to overhaul them before using.
Another option that I may try on my PX10 is to get a SOMA stem. Maybe it's a bit undersized like the old 3ttt and the Origin8 already mentioned. If not, I'll remove the anodizing, sand it down, and polish it up. We're only talking 0.1 mm here... An advantage of these is that they have a longer than vintage quill. Since that frame size is pretty small for you, it will give you more options in fitting. Raising vintage stems to or over the limit is IMO always a bad idea.
AFA length, that's a fitting issue and can't really be done over the internet. At 6'3" you are going to need something like a 12 or 13cm I'd guess. For a ball park estimate you could try the old rule of thumb. Take your arm and butt your elbow against the front of the saddle. Extend your fingers out towards the handlebar. They should just barely touch the back of the bar. Pick a stem length that achieves this. For example, if they go 3cm past the back of the bars with the current stem, then you need a stem 3cm longer. That's just the 70s ROT though, might be ballpark, might be off. The competitive cyclist fit calculator is pretty good for a more modern approach.
Frankly I'd say the bike is too small for you, but if you in fact really do have a 34" inseam, not pant length, then that size is reasonable. Make sure of that before wasting any time on the wrong size bike.
My advice on the wheels is to not worry about what brand your rims are. Any racing bike more than 6 months old probably didn't have original rims on it anyway. These things came with sew ups of course. I had an identical 72 for years BTW, and only ever rode sew ups on it. Not the end of the world to put an appropriate looking clincher rim. Hubs are another story. I personally would not use shimano hubs, just for aesthetics. Normandy competitions were pretty good if you can find them. Make sure to overhaul them before using.
Regarding wheels, you've convinced me to pass along the Open 4s. The wheels that are currently on the bike look period correct (to me, at least) and the hubs are Normandys. I'm going to ride it as-is for a month or so and see how things go. This will give me the quick-and-dirty test that "dddd" speaks of. The bike is off to my LBS for a tune up and some repairs along with the changes I've mentioned above. I will report back as soon as it returns.
EDIT: Now I can post pics! Please tell me what you think of the her (and if I’ve got the right stuff!).
Last edited by PeugeotAndGo; 05-29-20 at 12:42 AM.
05-29-20, 05:46 AM
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thank you for the new images
front brake hanger not correct
correct is MAFAC part number 65:
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thank you for the new images
front brake hanger not correct
correct is MAFAC part number 65:
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05-29-20, 08:01 AM
#30
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Looks good! I was not expecting to see the front derailer still intact, as most examples have by now succumbed to a splitting of the body from tightening of the clamp.
Hopefully the shop doesn't introduce and then discover the need for a replacement.
The chain appears to be quite on the short side. With just five sprockets in back, the whole range of sprocket combinations should be accessible and even usable, so I trust that the shop will check this out and fix as needed. Modern chain is in almost all ways better than vintage, but may not get along with the old French freewheel teeth or with the Stronglight crank's wide chainring spacing.
I think that you are in the size ballpark for this bike. The tell will be if the seatpost ends up with only two inches inserted into the frame!
Hopefully the shop doesn't introduce and then discover the need for a replacement.
The chain appears to be quite on the short side. With just five sprockets in back, the whole range of sprocket combinations should be accessible and even usable, so I trust that the shop will check this out and fix as needed. Modern chain is in almost all ways better than vintage, but may not get along with the old French freewheel teeth or with the Stronglight crank's wide chainring spacing.
I think that you are in the size ballpark for this bike. The tell will be if the seatpost ends up with only two inches inserted into the frame!
05-29-20, 01:51 PM
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Looks good! I was not expecting to see the front derailer still intact, as most examples have by now succumbed to a splitting of the body from tightening of the clamp.
Hopefully the shop doesn't introduce and then discover the need for a replacement.
The chain appears to be quite on the short side. With just five sprockets in back, the whole range of sprocket combinations should be accessible and even usable, so I trust that the shop will check this out and fix as needed. Modern chain is in almost all ways better than vintage, but may not get along with the old French freewheel teeth or with the Stronglight crank's wide chainring spacing.
I think that you are in the size ballpark for this bike. The tell will be if the seatpost ends up with only two inches inserted into the frame!
Hopefully the shop doesn't introduce and then discover the need for a replacement.
The chain appears to be quite on the short side. With just five sprockets in back, the whole range of sprocket combinations should be accessible and even usable, so I trust that the shop will check this out and fix as needed. Modern chain is in almost all ways better than vintage, but may not get along with the old French freewheel teeth or with the Stronglight crank's wide chainring spacing.
I think that you are in the size ballpark for this bike. The tell will be if the seatpost ends up with only two inches inserted into the frame!
05-29-20, 02:00 PM
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Setting aside my quest for originality and impending mechanical repairs, I wondered if I could pivot the conversation to wheels and tires.
Below are a set of Mavic Open 4CDs that came with the bike. As you will see, they are built with Shimano 105 hubs and cassette. Yes, I know. Neither original nor period correct. But my current wheelset is pretty beat and worn out, I'm told.
With that on the table, I have a few questions for the experts:
1. My LBS’ shop owner says that the Open 4s with Shimano 105s are a big step up from my current wheels and likely worn Normandy hubs. What say you?
2. Both tires need to be replaced and I’ve grown somewhat partial to the Michelin Dynamic Classics. But I’m not the expert. What tires do you recommend if my intended use is touring/tooling around and my desire is to achieve comfort over lap times?
3. Lastly, tire sizing. I’ve always like the look and feel of 700x28s. The bike has 25s on it and they look a little skinny for LA’s not-so-smooth roads. What should I opt for on tire size?
Thank you all again for your advice and input this week. I went from concerned to excited and I have you all to thank for that.
Below are a set of Mavic Open 4CDs that came with the bike. As you will see, they are built with Shimano 105 hubs and cassette. Yes, I know. Neither original nor period correct. But my current wheelset is pretty beat and worn out, I'm told.
With that on the table, I have a few questions for the experts:
1. My LBS’ shop owner says that the Open 4s with Shimano 105s are a big step up from my current wheels and likely worn Normandy hubs. What say you?
2. Both tires need to be replaced and I’ve grown somewhat partial to the Michelin Dynamic Classics. But I’m not the expert. What tires do you recommend if my intended use is touring/tooling around and my desire is to achieve comfort over lap times?
3. Lastly, tire sizing. I’ve always like the look and feel of 700x28s. The bike has 25s on it and they look a little skinny for LA’s not-so-smooth roads. What should I opt for on tire size?
Thank you all again for your advice and input this week. I went from concerned to excited and I have you all to thank for that.
Last edited by PeugeotAndGo; 05-29-20 at 02:04 PM.
05-29-20, 05:23 PM
#33
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Which Normandy hubs do you have? Regular or Luxe Competition? I'd put the Competition hubs on equal footing with 105. What is worn out? BITD there was no such thing as a wheelset. Hubs were relaced with new rims as needed when they got too dented up. If you have Competitions they are worth rebuilding.
Yeah sure, the more modern wheelset is marginally better, most likely. Cassette hubs are inherently stronger than freewheel hubs. Not sure what the other wheels are. But it's kind of like saying that you should put a Toyota motor in your '54 Corvette because they are better. It's true, but no thanks. That's an extreme example but you get my point. Still, if the new wheels get you on the road, use them. You can always swap wheels later.
More importantly the 105/Mavic wheelset is spaced 126 OLD for a 6/7 speed bike, whereas the PX10 was 5 speed or 120mm. You can switch wheel sizes, but it is important to properly respace the frame and realign the dropouts. Your LBS can do this. If they tell you it's stupid and OCD, take it somewhere else.
Panaracer Pasela are pretty good tires, great for the money, and look vintage cuz of the old school skinwall. There are various boutique Panaracer made tires sold by Herse, Fairweather, and several other companies. These have fancier casings that will roll a bit nicer for more bucks. I'm mostly riding on Continental GP4000 these days. Nice and fast, but blackwall only. 28 is a good size for LA if that's where you are. Crappy streets and roads. Hmm, Louisiana or Los Angeles?
Yeah sure, the more modern wheelset is marginally better, most likely. Cassette hubs are inherently stronger than freewheel hubs. Not sure what the other wheels are. But it's kind of like saying that you should put a Toyota motor in your '54 Corvette because they are better. It's true, but no thanks. That's an extreme example but you get my point. Still, if the new wheels get you on the road, use them. You can always swap wheels later.
More importantly the 105/Mavic wheelset is spaced 126 OLD for a 6/7 speed bike, whereas the PX10 was 5 speed or 120mm. You can switch wheel sizes, but it is important to properly respace the frame and realign the dropouts. Your LBS can do this. If they tell you it's stupid and OCD, take it somewhere else.
Panaracer Pasela are pretty good tires, great for the money, and look vintage cuz of the old school skinwall. There are various boutique Panaracer made tires sold by Herse, Fairweather, and several other companies. These have fancier casings that will roll a bit nicer for more bucks. I'm mostly riding on Continental GP4000 these days. Nice and fast, but blackwall only. 28 is a good size for LA if that's where you are. Crappy streets and roads. Hmm, Louisiana or Los Angeles?
05-30-20, 01:08 AM
#34
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Which Normandy hubs do you have? Regular or Luxe Competition? I'd put the Competition hubs on equal footing with 105. What is worn out? BITD there was no such thing as a wheelset. Hubs were relaced with new rims as needed when they got too dented up. If you have Competitions they are worth rebuilding.
Yeah sure, the more modern wheelset is marginally better, most likely. Cassette hubs are inherently stronger than freewheel hubs. Not sure what the other wheels are. But it's kind of like saying that you should put a Toyota motor in your '54 Corvette because they are better. It's true, but no thanks. That's an extreme example but you get my point. Still, if the new wheels get you on the road, use them. You can always swap wheels later.
More importantly the 105/Mavic wheelset is spaced 126 OLD for a 6/7 speed bike, whereas the PX10 was 5 speed or 120mm. You can switch wheel sizes, but it is important to properly respace the frame and realign the dropouts. Your LBS can do this. If they tell you it's stupid and OCD, take it somewhere else.
Panaracer Pasela are pretty good tires, great for the money, and look vintage cuz of the old school skinwall. There are various boutique Panaracer made tires sold by Herse, Fairweather, and several other companies. These have fancier casings that will roll a bit nicer for more bucks. I'm mostly riding on Continental GP4000 these days. Nice and fast, but blackwall only. 28 is a good size for LA if that's where you are. Crappy streets and roads. Hmm, Louisiana or Los Angeles?
Yeah sure, the more modern wheelset is marginally better, most likely. Cassette hubs are inherently stronger than freewheel hubs. Not sure what the other wheels are. But it's kind of like saying that you should put a Toyota motor in your '54 Corvette because they are better. It's true, but no thanks. That's an extreme example but you get my point. Still, if the new wheels get you on the road, use them. You can always swap wheels later.
More importantly the 105/Mavic wheelset is spaced 126 OLD for a 6/7 speed bike, whereas the PX10 was 5 speed or 120mm. You can switch wheel sizes, but it is important to properly respace the frame and realign the dropouts. Your LBS can do this. If they tell you it's stupid and OCD, take it somewhere else.
Panaracer Pasela are pretty good tires, great for the money, and look vintage cuz of the old school skinwall. There are various boutique Panaracer made tires sold by Herse, Fairweather, and several other companies. These have fancier casings that will roll a bit nicer for more bucks. I'm mostly riding on Continental GP4000 these days. Nice and fast, but blackwall only. 28 is a good size for LA if that's where you are. Crappy streets and roads. Hmm, Louisiana or Los Angeles?
Apologies--LA was vague. I'm in Los Angeles. Very crappy roads with lots of obstacles--sofas, tires, potholes, etc.--to avoid. I went with the 28s as I think 32s would be a bit ridiculous for the PX. If 32s would even fit, that is.
Just checked my hubs. Red sticker Normandy Luxe Comp front and rear.
Question regarding wheels -- Does it make sense to have the 105s swapped off of the Mavics? If the Maillard Helicomatic is correct (and/or original) for the bike, I think that's my preference. Particularly in light of your comment that the Luxe Comp hubs rival the 105s. My LBS was pretty down on the Normandy hubs. The shop owner said the Shimano 105s rolled like "glass" whereas the Normandys rolled like "gravel". Perhaps I need a new "guy"...
05-30-20, 08:51 AM
#35
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Sweet! I have a pair of Paselas on order. My quick and dirty research suggests that they are a better tire than the Michelins and have the same vintage look. Barring anyone suggesting a more interesting option while I wait for my LBS to have time for my bike, the Paselas will go on next week.
Apologies--LA was vague. I'm in Los Angeles. Very crappy roads with lots of obstacles--sofas, tires, potholes, etc.--to avoid. I went with the 28s as I think 32s would be a bit ridiculous for the PX. If 32s would even fit, that is.
Just checked my hubs. Red sticker Normandy Luxe Comp front and rear.
Question regarding wheels -- Does it make sense to have the 105s swapped off of the Mavics? If the Maillard Helicomatic is correct (and/or original) for the bike, I think that's my preference. Particularly in light of your comment that the Luxe Comp hubs rival the 105s. My LBS was pretty down on the Normandy hubs. The shop owner said the Shimano 105s rolled like "glass" whereas the Normandys rolled like "gravel". Perhaps I need a new "guy"...
Apologies--LA was vague. I'm in Los Angeles. Very crappy roads with lots of obstacles--sofas, tires, potholes, etc.--to avoid. I went with the 28s as I think 32s would be a bit ridiculous for the PX. If 32s would even fit, that is.
Just checked my hubs. Red sticker Normandy Luxe Comp front and rear.
Question regarding wheels -- Does it make sense to have the 105s swapped off of the Mavics? If the Maillard Helicomatic is correct (and/or original) for the bike, I think that's my preference. Particularly in light of your comment that the Luxe Comp hubs rival the 105s. My LBS was pretty down on the Normandy hubs. The shop owner said the Shimano 105s rolled like "glass" whereas the Normandys rolled like "gravel". Perhaps I need a new "guy"...
Good call on the Paselas over the Michelin Dynamics, at least as far as ride quality is concerned. I ride both, and the Paselas are nicer. But the Michelins are almost certainly more durable, if that's the main concern. And speaking of durable, I think most vintage PX10 owners report they have plenty of room for 32mm tires, if you want to go bigger. I'd have to get a close look to make a guess on your particular bike. As a general rule, the worse your road conditions are, the bigger tire you want, for both ride quality and durability.
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● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
05-30-20, 10:36 AM
#36
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No, not in my opinion. 105 are fine, but nothing great. For less money you could just buy some wheelmaster or velomine wheels built up already.
Those hubs did not use a Helicomatic. They are just regular freewheel hubs. However they almost certainly have a french threaded freewheel, which is going to be hard to find if you don't want to use the original gearing.
The Normandy Luxe Competions were their top of the line racing hub. They are the original equipment hubs on most PX10s. The 105 is a a good solid later period hub, but 3rd tier from Shimano. Since they are from a later period, standards had gone up a bit, so like I said I'd rate them roughly equal.
If the Normandy hubs are gravelly now, it's because either the grease has dried up into something resembling parmesan cheese, or the hubs are not properly adjusted, or the bearings are shot. I can't tell you which is correct over the internet, but it does sound like you need a new guy. Old hubs have to be regularly cleaned and repacked with fresh grease. Young mechanics typically have little if any experience doing this.
If the Maillard Helicomatic is correct (and/or original) for the bike, I think that's my preference. Particularly in light of your comment that the Luxe Comp hubs rival the 105s. My LBS was pretty down on the Normandy hubs. The shop owner said the Shimano 105s rolled like "glass" whereas the Normandys rolled like "gravel". Perhaps I need a new "guy"...
The Normandy Luxe Competions were their top of the line racing hub. They are the original equipment hubs on most PX10s. The 105 is a a good solid later period hub, but 3rd tier from Shimano. Since they are from a later period, standards had gone up a bit, so like I said I'd rate them roughly equal.
If the Normandy hubs are gravelly now, it's because either the grease has dried up into something resembling parmesan cheese, or the hubs are not properly adjusted, or the bearings are shot. I can't tell you which is correct over the internet, but it does sound like you need a new guy. Old hubs have to be regularly cleaned and repacked with fresh grease. Young mechanics typically have little if any experience doing this.
