Trevtassie

I use the cleat pockets as extra grip, once a rock point is locked in there it won't slip... the Vibram sole on the Shimano MT94> XM9 touring boots is excellent on smooth surfaces. So much so I had the idle thought of making some kind of SPD crampon for some glacier walking on our next trip. Maybe a crampon platform with a toe strap to stop twisting and releasing, (or we could just take boot chains).

Squeezebox

The difference is night and day. I have difficulty believing your comment.

HTupolev

Depends on what is meant by "difference."

revcp 

I have two problems with this. First, it's just an ignorant statement. Upthread several of us noted that there are cycling specific shoes that are not clipless. They work great. Some of us like them as much or more than clipless shoes when we're touring and we are actually able to climb hills with them and spin at a 90+ RPM.

Second, I think you may be a victim of advertising. Bike touring is not a criterium, stage race or brevet. It's touring, the cycling equivalent of sauntering (and, yes, I've done 150+ mile days, and I enjoyed those, but if every day is about pushing I'm cheating myself). There are people who come to this subforum excited to get out. Many posters rightly tell them to grab a bike and ride, but many others try to convince them they need many thousands of dollars for a bike, the best "kit" off the hangers and all kinds of doodads that the internet pushes at us or they'll end up in a fetal position at the side of the road or crumpled at the base of a hill their lousy shoes refuse to attack.

Clipless pedals are great. Flats are great. They both work well. I prefer the former on my road bike. I prefer the latter for singletrack, touring, commuting and fatbiking.

Paul Barnard

I should have said I can't tell much of a difference in performance and efficiency. The biggest difference I have noticed is that when I get tired it's easier to pedal circles with clipless, and that difference is negligible. I have 3 road bikes. Two of them have had platforms since I built them. I just switched one of those two over to clipless. On my regular 30 mile ride my average time remain unchanged. FWIW I am a casual rider who averages 16-17 by myself. It may also be worth mentioning that I live in the flat lands. That said, my platform pedals have served me very well in two trips out to Colorado. This is a touring forum, so I should also add that I have never done any loaded touring. When I finally go on tour I will use platforms for several reasons. I am a stop and smell the roses kind of guy. I'll spend quite bit of time off the bike. I also much prefer platforms when I get into urban areas. I find it's much easier to get going from traffic lights with platforms.

In short, if you read the many articles I linked that assert there's not a tremendous advantage to clipless, that has been my experience for my kind of riding.

Happy Feet

Considering the context, an very appropriate post

DropBarFan

I don't think that clipless is some marketing scheme, it made a big jump in racers' safety & comfort. Was so glad when I found a Sidi clipless shoe that fit that I wondered why anyone would bike w/o clipless if they had a choice.

Experienced bikers know which type of flat shoes work best but enthustiastic newbies probably better off buying some economy clipless shoes rather than mucking about w/squishy trainers. At the bowling alley nobody complains about having to wear bowling shoes.

elcruxio

I prefer clipless while touring or doing almost anything else bike related. I'm severly considering putting dual side cliplesses on my 'drunk bike' just so I can use my clipless sandals with it.

That said, clipless does not increase efficiency in that you won't be faster with them. They do not miraculously alter thermodynamics so that you'll somehow go faster without using more energy. That's not even the point of clipless. About pro's climbing with every muscle they have... Well, it's true that they do that as well as sprinters use every muscle in their body to sprint etc etc. However every one of those muscles is also eating from the same energy pool and getting their amount of the limited oxygen the body can scrounge up. That's why climbing or sprinting hard makes you out of breath faster. This is really very basic cardio 101 stuff.

Say you use flat pedals and only use two muscles when pedaling. Then you use clipless and use 10 muscles. If you are still putting out the same watts, you're using the same amount of energy and oxygen no matter which muscles are doing the work, no matter how many muscles are doing the work. There may be some very minor efficiency increases, but those may go both ways, so stating that clipless and pulling up is the winner is as likely to be false as stating that flat pedals are the winner. But there's an important difference between the two. Flats don't allow one to use all the necessary muscles in the first place as sprinting for example kinda requires the pull up. Yes, you'll use energy faster with more muscles firing up, but with a quick sprint or climb that hardly matters.

The other pros of clipless that are important to me are
less fatigue (having smooth flats is really fatigueing, having spiked pedals on the other hand tear up your shins)
more safety (when one has experience the foot flies off the clipless pedal faster than one can detatch a foot from a spiked pedal) and to expand on that
- easier to chill when standing on the pedals as the feet are not going anywhere
- feet won't slip from the pedals when the going gets rough
more comfortable
- I can use sandals which still have a stiff sole for pedaling
- don't have to concentrate on my feet at all as they have their set place
more potential power should I need it
- like I explained above
And the absolute most important thing
When stationary I can spin the clipped foot backwards to get my foot into the perfect starting position

Flats do offer some benefits too which is why I use double side pedals on the tourer
I can use whatever shoes I want
- don't have to dig up the cycling sandals if I need to do a quick run somewhere
backup if the clipless system fails
pedal reflectors
can ride bare foot for short distances
the dual sides don't have spikes which is nice

revcp 

No, it's not a marketing scheme. If you're an actual racer, spinning for hours at 100+, clipless pedals are better than flats. If you're a racer, sprinting or attacking a hill at speed, clipless pedals are better than flats. Many of the riders I see using clipless, however, are toddling along on flat terrain with a cadence of 75 or 80, or climbing a hill with gearing that will easily get them up it without pulling up on their pedals. You don't need clipless for those things. Those who believe they do are victims of marketing.


Which is EXACTLY why we, who are experienced, should give good advice to newbies when they come to a forum like this asking for it. I would say "get some economy clipless shoes" is rather bad advice for newbies, because that's just a generic toss off and they need actual specific advice (brand, sizing, which clips and pedal system, road or mtb, etc., etc.). Accordingly, the advice I give for flats is very specific, e.g. I use "pinned" flats and a non-lugged soft/sticky soled shoe. Can you use non-pinned flats and non bike specific shoes? Yes, but in my experience pinned flats (Shimano Saints in my case) and soft soled shoes (I use 5.10 Free Rider) work well. And, as I've said in earlier posts, I think both cliplesss and flats are fine. I ride both. I simply disagree that one "needs" clipless for touring.

Walter S

I don't know why folks say you can only pull up with clipless. I ride with toe-clips and pull up just fine.

Squeezebox

It's not marketing hype it's real. Sounds like many of the "clipless is unnecessary" folks have not ridden clipless.
The last time I forgot my cycling shoes and rode about 100km in crocs it tore up my legs so bad I could not ride a bicycle for a month, could hardly walk for 2 days. When I go to the grocery in tennis shoes I feel the stress of mis-aligned ankles and knees. Not so with my cycling shoes. I would never ride on flats more than a few miles for fear of significant injury.
Geez it takes about 30 seconds to change shoes , Max. The 1 pr of shoes argument just does not hold water compared to your safety.
That's my experience.

elcruxio

You're forgetting that clipless is also a foot retaining thing where you don't need to think about your feet even in the roughest of road sections, gravel, low key single track etc. Not saying you can't do those with platforms, but I prefer clipless as it completely eliminates all need for me to concentrate on my feet.
And having a bit of extra capability on the bike even when touring is sometimes really nice, like in a very steep uphill or when you need to sprint to a ferry which has in fact already left.
Also there are really only 2 viable platform pedal types which go well for touring
1) The spiked MTB pedal which tears up shins, pants and shoes extremely effectively. Does retain a shoe really nicely but it's actually slower to the the foot off of said pedal than from a clipless as you need to lift your foot to get it off from the spikes. And it wears down soles. And it doesn't work with minimalist shoes because it wears soles and may even puncture the sole in a minimalist shoe
2) The Ergon platform pedal, which would actually be my choice if I didn't already have the clipless system kitted out.

revcp 

No, I'm not forgetting the "foot retaining thing." It's fine that you like clipless. I have no issues whatsoever with posters describing preferences. My issue is when it goes from description to prescription, as in "because I like/use XXXXX you should too". I've never had a hard time getting up a steep grade for which I'm geared correctly, and correct gearing is a pre-tour decision. And I can't imagine I would want to choose clipless over platform over several hundred or thousand miles because I might want to sprint for a ferry.

1) I've never torn up my shins, pants or shoes with my pinned pedals. never.

2) I've been curious about the Ergons, but, like you, I'm already using flats on several bikes and spd on the other.

Leebo

Ugg, use what you like. I run spd's for dirt, flats for pave. Plenty of mt bikers I know run flats. Slower? Myth. Show me the facts.

Trevtassie

Marketing exercise? My SPD pedals are cheaper than a set decent of spiked flats. My MT94s cost half what my Scarpas do. Both items cost less than Saint pedals and 5Ten Freeriders respectively. I've used 5Ten shoes for touring, they sucked in rough terrain when walking, I fell on my arse all the time because they have no tread. So you actually need a second pair of shoes, unlike the MT94s which do everything very well.
I would never tour in trainers. Walking over rough terrain in them is asking for trouble with your ankles in the long term.
So I have a very specific recommendation to anybody looking at pedals for touring. Get some M324s or A530 pedals. Get some XM9 boots or XM7 shoes (or MT94/MT71 if you can find them in your size). If you're scared of clipless for some reason, get some Click'r T400s.

Leebo

OP, I run flat pedals and Keen sandals when I tour, YRMV.

Happy Feet

Peoples inability to perform a simple task should not be used as any sort of review of the equipment involved.

I don't have any negatives to say about clipless (just don't prefer them for my own reasons) but if someone struggles with riding platform pedals, something others have been doing since the invention of the bicycle, it's probably not the pedal... just sayin.

mantelclock

So true! Ride with whatever you're comfortable with!

jefnvk

And quite a bit of room in your panniers to keep that second pair of shoes. And cleaning up the old shoes before tossing them in the panniers if they are wet or dirty. And repeating that process everytime you want to get off the bike and walk around. I've been in a couple bike accidents, not a single one had anything to do with my feet not being latched to the pedals. Maybe if I ever got into racing or serious mountain biking, I'd think differently, I've just never run into a personal situation where the biking I do even comes close to necessitating a foot latched to a pedal for safety. My Izumi running shoes "lock" in quite nicely to the steel pedals on my Le Tour, my foot does not move around, even in the rain.

If you can wait a month, I'll have a nice review for you on walking long distances on cobblestone streets in the Rumbles!

All my bikes have platforms. The new one getting built for a tour has toe clips and leather straps, simply because it came with them. I'm giving them a shot, but as I've never realized a problem without retention, I don't foresee them benefiting me much (although they did feel nice in a shakedown run). I chose to order some bike specific shoes because the old running shoes I had were wearing thin and causing some numbness on the ball of my left foot, hopefully the stiff sole adds some more support. I'm not using them with cleats, just bought them for the foresole stiffness.

mstateglfr 

You rode a metric century in crocs on SPD(or similar) pedals and use that as reason as evidence to your position? Thats par for the course with you.

And how far is the grocery store from you that you have misaligned knees and ankles from simply pedaling in running shoes? If anything, running shoes should allow you to NOT have misaligned knees and ankles due to your leg and foot being allowed to rest on the pedal in their natural positions. One of the common causes of knee pain is poorly set SPDs that force the leg into a locked position that is too far from natural.



Man I love your posts. Gold. Pure gold.

indyfabz

Wut?

1. While I do put my off-bike shooes (cheap-o sandals from PayLess) in a pannier, I could easily strap them under the bungees that hold my tent to my rear rack, like I do with flip flops when I take them:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/105349...7655263744881/

And they don't take up quite a bit of room despite my size 12 feet. That's because you can flatten the tops on each other. Packed that way, they take up less room than my TrermaRest mattress and weigh a lot less. Have been touring with my current pair for years. Nice to let my dogs breathe at the end of the day. Nice to have a dry pair of shoes to put on if I have been riding all day in the rain. Nice to be able to keep my riding shoes dry if it starts to rain in camp.

2. The sandals go in a plastic grocery bag before they go in the pannier. No dirt of dampness issues to contend with.

3. I can walk around just fine in my SPD-equipped shoes. Even took a 1.5 hr. tour of Wind Cave in them last year. I recently got a new pair of PI shoes and they are quite comfortable.

Ride what you like, but I think you have manufactured a few problems.

saddlesores

methings we've been down this rabbit hole before recently like in
not long ago.....

mantelclock

Proof that clipless is unnecessary...

jefnvk

If squeeze can, why can't I? In my particular case, though, my clothing/personal item bag is airline carry-on sized (i.e., one pannier bag). An extra pair of shoes does take up considerable space in that. If they end up coming, it'll be a lightweight moccasin or just a pair of shower sandals.

I've given in and am attempting this walking everywhere in SPD compatible shoes, I've spent considerable time running around looking for what I felt was the best pair to accomplish this. The shoes didn't feel bad in the showroom, just gotta wait for them to arrive and see how they really turn out. I've always ridden my longer day trips with only one pair of shoes, I simply have no desire to change shoes all the time, regardless of how little effort it truly takes.

I am interested in this biking in sandals concept. I may have to give it a try this summer.

Tourist in MSN

I use bike shoes (SPD) and carry a second pair of regular shoes, usually trail runners. I used either M324 or A530 pedals, SPD one side and platform the other. Thus, I can bike in either pair.

After two consecutive days of rain, my cycle shoes were completely soaked so I decided to let them air out for a day, strapped down just behind the saddle while I wore the trail runners to bike that day.



I have never found a reason to have to clean any shoes off before putting in a pannier, if they are too dirty to pack inside they can stay outside. But, I always carry a small supply of those really thin plastic bags like the ones in produce departments, so if I did have some dirty shoes I could put them in a bag.

I often tour with a friend that is an ultralight packer, he almost never carries a second pair of shoes. He has on two trips had to cut a day short because his feet spent too many days in wet shoes and his feet were having problems. I would rather avoid that and carry a second pair of shoes.