1000% OMNIGEAR BIKE Wide range cassette with a triple
01-24-21, 01:19 AM
#51
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I run triples on several bicycles. I'm can't pull the bigger gears anymore. I like to set up my triples with a 24 tooth granny, a 32 tooth middle and a 34 tooth high gear. I like 11-34 rear 10 speed cassettes. The 32 34 tooth setup gives me a half step which is very useful. I use the half step all the time and find it most helpful in windy conditions. I have resorted to first dropping into my 24 when going up very steep grades. I then can adjust the rear cassette to fit the conditions easily. We have some pedestrian overpasses that get very steep quickly. One can stand and muscle over or just drop it into the granny and sit and pedal over at a more leisurely pace. The 34 tooth with a 24 tooth up front is very low and can be hard to keep the bike upright. Traction has to be good in these lower gears. We all have reasons for our gear choices. I run a 1 x 10 bicycle and love it but the triples are a little bit better all round riders with no real down side. Also I agree that big big chainring chain alignment should be survivable. Stuff happens and you can inadvertently shift into that combo. Install the rear derailleur that properly allows that to happen and will take up all the slack on small small also.
01-24-21, 09:16 AM
#52
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Has it already been mentioned that this project won't be complete without a nice internally geared hub?
My gut feeling is that a 3x will do it, 3x12x3.
If you really want to do multiplication, a 7 or 12 speed hub is in order.
My gut feeling is that a 3x will do it, 3x12x3.
If you really want to do multiplication, a 7 or 12 speed hub is in order.
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01-24-21, 01:19 PM
#53
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I tend to ride my 9-spd triple 11-36T 24/38/48 bike as if it is a 1x drivetrain with 38T crank. When I can't get up a hill with the 36 cog/38 chainring, I just drop to the granny 24. When I manage to get above 35 mph or so (very rare) I will shift into my big chainring on the 11 or 13 cog. Other than than that, I always just stay in my middle ring. Honestly idk if that's what you're "supposed" to do on a triple but that's always worked fine for me for over 10,000 miles of touring and communing on this exact drivetrain. But from this perspective, a triple 3x is simply a 1x with a granny gear and a "anti-granny" gear (big chainring).
So, I want to absolutely max my gear ratio out with the hugest combinations of cogs and chainrings possible. Cassette 10-46T (maybe even 50T+?), with a triple 22/38/54. I did the math and it provides over 1000% gear range, with a super climbing gear of <0.5 gear ratio, 12 gear-inches on 26" wheels, which should let me tow my 350-lb sailboat up the steep hills of Seattle. But, the "1x" 38T middle ring should be perfectly adequate for any commuting and road riding, while the biggo chainring will let me go freeway speeds down mountains. Big long cage derailleur to take up the slack, and I should be fine as long as I stay a half-cassette away from cross-chaining when I'm in the 22 or 54 (Like I said, I only use the 1 or 2 biggest/smallest cogs when I'm in the 1st or 3rd chainring, anyway).
I use friction shifters, and the 14t jump on my current chainring setup has never been an issue for me, so I don't imagine 16t will be unreasonable to handle either.
I guess my question is: why is this kind of setup seemingly really uncommon? People hype up the 1x drivetrain so much, but as far as I can tell a 1x is just a triple with a broken front derailleur stuck in the middle gear. I get that it's more simplified and what not, but are friction shifters and front derailleurs that unreliable, or heavy, or complicated? For like 1 extra pound you can get +500% gear ratio and that much more versatility out of your bike. And, while I've had to replace or service my RD cable and rear shifter system multiple times, I've literally never had to do anything to my front shifter or derailleur, and I've ridden THE **** out of this bike (fully loaded dirt road touring in freezing rain kind of ****, 500 continuous miles of salt-water coast riding without even lubing my chain kind of ****, etc). I've had so many bike shop dorks tell me that I need two different bikes (or even three!) if I want to tow heavy loads, have a spry commuter, take light fast road rides, and and go on extended tours with 100s of lbs of crap. But... why? As far as I can tell, a cheap ass used 28-lb steel bike with sturdy rack mounts and decent tire clearance can seemingly do all of those things pretty well provided with the right gears.
New omnigear 1000% drivetrain components are in the mail, I'll update this thread when I install everything, and report back on how awesome my bike is.
So, I want to absolutely max my gear ratio out with the hugest combinations of cogs and chainrings possible. Cassette 10-46T (maybe even 50T+?), with a triple 22/38/54. I did the math and it provides over 1000% gear range, with a super climbing gear of <0.5 gear ratio, 12 gear-inches on 26" wheels, which should let me tow my 350-lb sailboat up the steep hills of Seattle. But, the "1x" 38T middle ring should be perfectly adequate for any commuting and road riding, while the biggo chainring will let me go freeway speeds down mountains. Big long cage derailleur to take up the slack, and I should be fine as long as I stay a half-cassette away from cross-chaining when I'm in the 22 or 54 (Like I said, I only use the 1 or 2 biggest/smallest cogs when I'm in the 1st or 3rd chainring, anyway).
I use friction shifters, and the 14t jump on my current chainring setup has never been an issue for me, so I don't imagine 16t will be unreasonable to handle either.
I guess my question is: why is this kind of setup seemingly really uncommon? People hype up the 1x drivetrain so much, but as far as I can tell a 1x is just a triple with a broken front derailleur stuck in the middle gear. I get that it's more simplified and what not, but are friction shifters and front derailleurs that unreliable, or heavy, or complicated? For like 1 extra pound you can get +500% gear ratio and that much more versatility out of your bike. And, while I've had to replace or service my RD cable and rear shifter system multiple times, I've literally never had to do anything to my front shifter or derailleur, and I've ridden THE **** out of this bike (fully loaded dirt road touring in freezing rain kind of ****, 500 continuous miles of salt-water coast riding without even lubing my chain kind of ****, etc). I've had so many bike shop dorks tell me that I need two different bikes (or even three!) if I want to tow heavy loads, have a spry commuter, take light fast road rides, and and go on extended tours with 100s of lbs of crap. But... why? As far as I can tell, a cheap ass used 28-lb steel bike with sturdy rack mounts and decent tire clearance can seemingly do all of those things pretty well provided with the right gears.
New omnigear 1000% drivetrain components are in the mail, I'll update this thread when I install everything, and report back on how awesome my bike is.
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01-24-21, 08:30 PM
#54
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GENIUS! Makes me think of the legendary 105-speed 'Technomadics BEHEMOTH' bicyclic monstrosity from the 90's. That thing had a range of 8-120ish gear-inches, featured training wheels ("landing gear") for the ultra low-speed gears. Plus fully-functional keyboard built into the recumbent grips, for typing on the massive computer console bolted to the front, with satellite internet hotspot. Not to mention storage for weeks worth of food and gear. Most inspiring creation of all time
01-24-21, 08:30 PM
#55
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Not to beat a dead horse but ...
You can hear it. Somehow in something like 25 years and many many 10s of Ks I've yet to cross chain unintentionally.
Not that I've ever generally recommended short-chaining. Overall it's a terrible idea. But if you have a special need (like towing a sailboat) and you know the limits and pay attention to what you're doing it's a feasible solution. That's what I mean by we make too big a deal of it sometimes. And seriously, who cross chains a triple? The clatter is bad enough on a double.
You can hear it. Somehow in something like 25 years and many many 10s of Ks I've yet to cross chain unintentionally.
Not that I've ever generally recommended short-chaining. Overall it's a terrible idea. But if you have a special need (like towing a sailboat) and you know the limits and pay attention to what you're doing it's a feasible solution. That's what I mean by we make too big a deal of it sometimes. And seriously, who cross chains a triple? The clatter is bad enough on a double.
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01-24-21, 09:08 PM
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01-24-21, 09:25 PM
#57
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Yes, I think this the key question. Unloaded, I can usually crawl at about 3mph in my current lowest gear, which is 18 gear inches (3.21 mph = 18 gear inches * pi* 60 rpm *0.00095). If I recompute using my ideal cadence (90 rpm) at my minim speed without tipping over, I get 12 gear inches as a realistic lowest desirable gear. And interestingly enough, a 22 chainring 46t sprocket combo on my 26" wheels is almost exactly 12 gear inches. Seems like it is fated to be...
BTW, unlike paniers or bikepack backs, pulling a trailer doesn't increase the wobblyness-factor as far as I can tell, but contrary to other posts in thread, a normal bike trailer will NOT prevent you from tipping sideways. Good trailer mounts have three axes of rational freedom, but even ones with only two should be set up so that the bike is free to roll side to side. Otherwise you'd hardly be able to turn, it would be like riding a terrible trike
BTW, unlike paniers or bikepack backs, pulling a trailer doesn't increase the wobblyness-factor as far as I can tell, but contrary to other posts in thread, a normal bike trailer will NOT prevent you from tipping sideways. Good trailer mounts have three axes of rational freedom, but even ones with only two should be set up so that the bike is free to roll side to side. Otherwise you'd hardly be able to turn, it would be like riding a terrible trike
01-24-21, 10:28 PM
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Not to beat a dead horse but ...
You can hear it. Somehow in something like 25 years and many many 10s of Ks I've yet to cross chain unintentionally.
Not that I've ever generally recommended short-chaining. Overall it's a terrible idea. But if you have a special need (like towing a sailboat) and you know the limits and pay attention to what you're doing it's a feasible solution. That's what I mean by we make too big a deal of it sometimes. And seriously, who cross chains a triple? The clatter is bad enough on a double.
You can hear it. Somehow in something like 25 years and many many 10s of Ks I've yet to cross chain unintentionally.
Not that I've ever generally recommended short-chaining. Overall it's a terrible idea. But if you have a special need (like towing a sailboat) and you know the limits and pay attention to what you're doing it's a feasible solution. That's what I mean by we make too big a deal of it sometimes. And seriously, who cross chains a triple? The clatter is bad enough on a double.
In any event, people cross chain all the time. Just ride behind my wife and you'll see cross chaining combos you had not even thought of.
But it is really a moot point because there is no need to short chain, even in the OP's case.
Last edited by Kapusta; 01-25-21 at 01:50 PM.
01-25-21, 01:29 PM
#59
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Very good question. A better question though is why NOT have more? Idk I do occasionally find that even the granny gear on a 36T cog is too much force for my weak ankles when I'm towing stuff up hill or am fully loaded with stuff for a long trip, and I often wish I had just a bit more mechanical advantage.
If I'm not mistaken (though there's a great chance that I am) Most long cage RDs should be able to handle it just fine as long as you stay in the small-cog-big-chainring and/or big-cog-small-chainring pairings? But yeah it's true that no derailleur in existence could handle every possible gear combo on the 11-46 triple
If I'm not mistaken (though there's a great chance that I am) Most long cage RDs should be able to handle it just fine as long as you stay in the small-cog-big-chainring and/or big-cog-small-chainring pairings? But yeah it's true that no derailleur in existence could handle every possible gear combo on the 11-46 triple
"Staying away from big-big, small-small combinations is easy to say but much harder to do. Always size your chain for big-big as if you don't, one day you'll accidently shift there and rip your derailleur out of its mount.
There are no long cage derailleurs with cages long enough to handle the chain takeup of the chainring/cassete combination listed.
01-25-21, 01:37 PM
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Yes, I think this the key question. Unloaded, I can usually crawl at about 3mph in my current lowest gear, which is 18 gear inches (3.21 mph = 18 gear inches * pi* 60 rpm *0.00095). If I recompute using my ideal cadence (90 rpm) at my minim speed without tipping over, I get 12 gear inches as a realistic lowest desirable gear. And interestingly enough, a 22 chainring 46t sprocket combo on my 26" wheels is almost exactly 12 gear inches. Seems like it is fated to be...
BTW, unlike paniers or bikepack backs, pulling a trailer doesn't increase the wobblyness-factor as far as I can tell, but contrary to other posts in thread, a normal bike trailer will NOT prevent you from tipping sideways. Good trailer mounts have three axes of rational freedom, but even ones with only two should be set up so that the bike is free to roll side to side. Otherwise you'd hardly be able to turn, it would be like riding a terrible trike
BTW, unlike paniers or bikepack backs, pulling a trailer doesn't increase the wobblyness-factor as far as I can tell, but contrary to other posts in thread, a normal bike trailer will NOT prevent you from tipping sideways. Good trailer mounts have three axes of rational freedom, but even ones with only two should be set up so that the bike is free to roll side to side. Otherwise you'd hardly be able to turn, it would be like riding a terrible trike
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01-25-21, 10:24 PM
#61
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- It's not whether you can pull the load, but fast enough to be stable. Gearing too low and the crank may be turning but the bike moves so slow up a hill you have marginal stability.
- The boat being much heavier than the tow vehicle, you have stability and braking issues on descents.
Gearing: It's not just about the ratio; 3X gearing will, when used properly, allow a much straighter chain line than 1X and thus greater chain durability and lower likelihood of breaking under a hard pull.
01-26-21, 11:15 AM
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01-26-21, 11:56 AM
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SA CS-RF3 https://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/pr.../cs-rf3-silver - 3 spd IGH + cassette
Schlumpf Mountain Drive mountain drive - schlumpfdrive - ultraflat Planetary Gear for Bikes which I am sure can be modified to take double chainrings, say 34-50
plus an 11-50 cassette
Should give approximately 3000% range.
Schlumpf Mountain Drive mountain drive - schlumpfdrive - ultraflat Planetary Gear for Bikes which I am sure can be modified to take double chainrings, say 34-50
plus an 11-50 cassette
Should give approximately 3000% range.
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01-26-21, 12:03 PM
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Post 2:
Just a Schlumpf drive (2.5x reduction) + SA 3 spd (177% range) gives a range of 442.5% before you calculate chainring and cog ratios. A single chainring and 12-36 cassette (chosen for ease of calculation)would give you a 1328% spread. You would get better than 1000% spread with a 12-28 cassette and single chainring.
Just a Schlumpf drive (2.5x reduction) + SA 3 spd (177% range) gives a range of 442.5% before you calculate chainring and cog ratios. A single chainring and 12-36 cassette (chosen for ease of calculation)would give you a 1328% spread. You would get better than 1000% spread with a 12-28 cassette and single chainring.
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01-26-21, 12:03 PM
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01-26-21, 12:09 PM
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It seems to me, after spending dozens of years living in a house, that a house is just a big wooden tent that happens to be a little harder to move between campsites. So, I was thinking, why NOT build my house out of nylon, zippers, and thin aluminum poles? It would save on all kinds of homeowner maintenance (when is the last time you heard anyone complain about having to get their tent repainted, or buy new appliances?)
01-26-21, 12:14 PM
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When getting ready for a canoe camping trip I realized my dog had torn a hole in the 'window' screen in the tent last time we were out.
Also, I had a small camp stove but somehow lost it.
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01-26-21, 12:18 PM
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This past summer I did both repairs to my tent and buy a new appliance for use with the tent.
When getting ready for a canoe camping trip I realized my dog had torn a hole in the 'window' screen in the tent last time we were out.
Also, I had a small camp stove but somehow lost it.
When getting ready for a canoe camping trip I realized my dog had torn a hole in the 'window' screen in the tent last time we were out.
Also, I had a small camp stove but somehow lost it.
Pro tip: don’t use your camp stove inside your tent. Leave no trace. Pack it in, pack it out. Your tent doesn't need a rear derailleur. Leave your campsite cleaner than you found it.
01-26-21, 12:25 PM
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This past summer I did both repairs to my tent and buy a new appliance for use with the tent.
When getting ready for a canoe camping trip I realized my dog had torn a hole in the 'window' screen in the tent last time we were out.
Also, I had a small camp stove but somehow lost it.
When getting ready for a canoe camping trip I realized my dog had torn a hole in the 'window' screen in the tent last time we were out.
Also, I had a small camp stove but somehow lost it.
Back in September I had to make an emergency field repair on my MSR Dragonfly stove during a week-long tour. My previous Dragonfly broke years ago from use and abuse.
01-26-21, 12:25 PM
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Maybe I'll just let the dog rip more holes in the tent for ventilation.
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02-01-21, 03:59 PM
#71
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Parts are beginning to trickle in... should be able to start building it soon. Key takeaways from this thread:
- Size the chain to the big-big combo. Alright, I'll think about it
- Put brakes on the trailer. Yep, that's a really good idea. And I know from experience that it is necessary
- Speed will be a problem in addition to gear advantage. I did some math and I think I'll be able to maintain enough speed to balance as long as I'm hitting high rpms in my lowest gear. If not, there's always training wheels
- Internal gearing could achieve EVEN MORE GEARS (read: better). Once I am ready to spend thousands I'll try assembling a bike with internal crank gearing, attached to a triple (hell, a quadruple) chainring, geared hub, and a 12 speed cassette, and enjoy the gains as my number of gears approaches infinity. Maybe by then they'll have internally geared artificial hips, too
02-27-23, 12:49 AM
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Yeah, anyways.... I've learned a lot in the last few years. This bike is now set up as a 1x10. I do use it to tow my boats though! my kayaks and paddleboards, that is. The sailboat towing idea sadly never got off the ground. But 100lbs of kayak and paddleboard is actually pretty easy to tow, even up hills, with the 38-46 combo on the 1x. If anyone in the world cares or ever looks at this old thread I'll post some pics of the bike and towing setup
-Andy
-Andy
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02-27-23, 05:05 AM
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Yeah, anyways.... I've learned a lot in the last few years. This bike is now set up as a 1x10. I do use it to tow my boats though! my kayaks and paddleboards, that is. The sailboat towing idea sadly never got off the ground. But 100lbs of kayak and paddleboard is actually pretty easy to tow, even up hills, with the 38-46 combo on the 1x. If anyone in the world cares or ever looks at this old thread I'll post some pics of the bike and towing setup
-Andy
-Andy
02-27-23, 07:25 AM
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Very good to see you get back to us with a follow-up. Sounds like you made a practical and functional choice.
