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Old 01-18-21, 04:45 PM
  #101  
cs1
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
Just to be clear, you're talking dropbars right?
And for touring and a heavier bike right?
Yes correct drop bars.
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Old 01-18-21, 05:33 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
so yours is a 11-50, so less top end, but thats ok.
My question still is looking at chain life with all the crosschaining going on? I realize this is not easy to find this info, as 12 spd stuff is mostly used in mtb world, so dirty and cruddy.
but it does have real world implications, so even though the gear inch range of your 11-50 is pretty darn good (low on the high end though still a bit) and new tech is cool, how long will this stuff last vs 8,9,10 speed setups, and how much is the cost and availability of 11-50 cassettes and 12 spd chains?

Im all for new stuff, its just that in touring, there is a real world advantage of having commonly found and a reasonable price/performance balance.

it seems the whole 1x thing just doesnt want to address these questions/aspects.
The 1x crowd doesn't address those questions because for a vast majority of people drivetrain life isn't relevant. How many trips have you taken in which you had to replace a chain, cassette, or chainring? I had to replace a chain on a 5-month trip. I've never needed a new cassette or chainring mid-trip. It doesn't matter if your fancy 12s cassette is available at some shop if the chance of you wearing it out on that 2-week trip is nil.

BTW, here's one test showing that 12s chains last the longest.

For those of you about to embark on an epic journey across the globe, sure, stick with 9s and inexpensive parts that will wear out as you go. Or think about a Rohloff. But for the rest of us doing short trips, we can use whatever drivetrain we like, knowing that it'll do its job just fine.
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Old 01-24-21, 02:01 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
The low I could easily live with but the high, a little too low for me but it might work just fine for you.
Thanks, I agree: Rode my 3x9 Fuji yesterday and I still like 3X, Got the Vaya for the disc brakes.

Looking to go 3X10, Will see if Sram X5 22/33/44 with FD is a option, Trusting bike shop on this,
Prefer bar ends so micro shift in friction at first with the 11-32 Sram on there now.
In the future I would have the option to go lower 11-34 or 11-36 with shimano mountain RD and micro shift BS-M10

Shimano has 22/30/40 cranks but the 30 middle seems too low for the flats?
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Old 01-24-21, 03:27 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by danders View Post
Thanks, I agree: Rode my 3x9 Fuji yesterday and I still like 3X, Got the Vaya for the disc brakes.

Looking to go 3X10, Will see if Sram X5 22/33/44 with FD is a option, Trusting bike shop on this,
Prefer bar ends so micro shift in friction at first with the 11-32 Sram on there now.
In the future I would have the option to go lower 11-34 or 11-36 with shimano mountain RD and micro shift BS-M10

Shimano has 22/30/40 cranks but the 30 middle seems too low for the flats?
you could replace the 40 with a 36 or 38 and keep the 30.
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Old 01-24-21, 04:16 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by danders View Post
Thanks, I agree: Rode my 3x9 Fuji yesterday and I still like 3X, Got the Vaya for the disc brakes.

Looking to go 3X10, Will see if Sram X5 22/33/44 with FD is a option, Trusting bike shop on this,
Prefer bar ends so micro shift in friction at first with the 11-32 Sram on there now.
In the future I would have the option to go lower 11-34 or 11-36 with shimano mountain RD and micro shift BS-M10

Shimano has 22/30/40 cranks but the 30 middle seems too low for the flats?
I ride a 44/32/22 on a 26in bike, so lower gearing a bit overall compared to 700, and I find the 32 a bit low, but as its ok as I generally ride this bike loaded and so the mtb setup works great loaded. Yes a slightly bigger mid ring would be nice, but sometimes its about compromise, and again, loaded up and in hilly terrain its a great setup. I can still pedal along up to about 50kph so its all good.
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Old 01-25-21, 04:08 AM
  #106  
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As I see it, there was no need for the big 3 to develop touring groupsets as there didn't seem to be a demand for it. People were happy with their 8/9/10 speed triples, so why fix what ain't broken or if there's no demand.
Interest in mainstream touring and bikebacking was re-ignited fairly recently and out of the big 3, SRAM reacted the quickest, allthough with their electronic groupsets only, but we are talking BIG money for that. Shimano and Campag only do 1x for gravel and mtb.

Ratio Technology sells the internal shifter ratchet for 11 speed SRAM road/dropbar shifters. It replaces the standard 11 speed ratchet with a 12 speed ratchet that works with SRAM's mtb rear derailleurs, GX and up.

https://ratiotechnology.com/

A road double crankset of choice can be used on the front with a 11 speed SRAM/Shimano or 12 speed 11-51 Shimano cassette, with a standard HG freehub. Obviously if willing to spend on XG/microspline, there are more options.

This is the more 'affordable', mechanical, current tech, drop bar solution.

The alternative is friction shifters, you can run pretty much anything then. They seem to be available for drop bars as well.
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Old 01-25-21, 06:23 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by niknak View Post
The 1x crowd doesn't address those questions because for a vast majority of people drivetrain life isn't relevant. How many trips have you taken in which you had to replace a chain, cassette, or chainring? I had to replace a chain on a 5-month trip. I've never needed a new cassette or chainring mid-trip. It doesn't matter if your fancy 12s cassette is available at some shop if the chance of you wearing it out on that 2-week trip is nil.
....
I can't speak for everyone and I can't speak for the person you responded to. But when I express concerns about driveline component lifespans, it is not concerns that a component would wear out within a week or two, my concern is that some parts are expensive, some not so much. There are ways to reduce premature wearing of components, such as avoiding cross chaining.

And 1X systems which do not give you the option to use a less cross chained chainring would be expected to increase wear when operated for significant amounts of time on the gears with a less than ideal chainline.

Just yesterday I saw that someone commented on a particular cassette for a 1X system that had a very wide range, I was curious so I did an internet search for that cassette to learn more about it. I was very impressed to learn that you now can have a 1X system with a gear range of 520 percent using a SRAM XX1 Eagle XG-1299 12-Speed Cassette. Thus a 1X system has almost reached the threshold of the gear range you get with a 14 speed Rohloff hub.

But what impressed me even more was the price for that cassette. List price of $449 USD. You even have a choice of two colors.
https://www.rei.com/product/188095/s...speed-cassette

If I had that cassette, I would be EXTREMELY concerned about lifespan of expendable components.

I do not know what your 1X system is and I do not care to know. Just explaining that some of us actually have to pay for our components, regardless of where we are when they wear out, and prefer our components to have a long lifespan.
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Old 01-25-21, 07:34 AM
  #108  
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Niknak and others regarding real life costs, here's a typical example.
A good friend of mine is what I'd call your average person, she has a hybrid, likes riding a bike sometimes but doesn't think of any details. After having her bike for just a few years, took it in for a "tuneup" and was surprised and suspicious about the store telling her she needed a new chain and cassette. Parts and labour.
She doesn't ride thar much, is a bit iffy about understanding shifting chain rings, and pretty much never cleans or lubes the chain. (I would do it once in a blue moon)

So the store slapped on a chain checker, also probably saw she's someone who doesn't care or know about maintenance, and changed both.
Very typical Mr and Mrs Smith bike owner.
Great for the store, but imagine my friends surprise if instead of 120 or whatever it was , if it was 200, 300, 400 to do this?

of course prices go down, and I really do like the pushing and development of new technology, but my story , I feel, is a typical example of Joe public and their bike.

something to take into consideration for some people re real world costs. Or at least to acknowledge. I'm sure costs of 1x stuff goes down with mass use,and 12 speed is clearly top end stuff, so I know it's not as simple to say 1x is expensive, but wear most likely is always higher with them due to cross chaining.

just some thoughts
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Old 01-25-21, 11:13 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
And 1X systems which do not give you the option to use a less cross chained chainring would be expected to increase wear when operated for significant amounts of time on the gears with a less than ideal chainline.

Just yesterday I saw that someone commented on a particular cassette for a 1X system that had a very wide range, I was curious so I did an internet search for that cassette to learn more about it. I was very impressed to learn that you now can have a 1X system with a gear range of 520 percent using a SRAM XX1 Eagle XG-1299 12-Speed Cassette. Thus a 1X system has almost reached the threshold of the gear range you get with a 14 speed Rohloff hub.

But what impressed me even more was the price for that cassette. List price of $449 USD. You even have a choice of two colors.
https://www.rei.com/product/188095/s...speed-cassette
Sure, you can buy the top end Sram cassette for $449. But you can also get the same gear range from a Sram GX cassette for half the cost. I realize that's still way more than a XT 11-34t 9s cassette, but I think the newer drivetrains add value that I'm willing to pay for. If you prefer to spend less then that's fine too

In my initial post I linked to an article that shows Sram 12s chains lasting way longer than 8-11s chains. So even if a 1x system is cross-chained more severely, the improved design and manufacturing of the chains and cassettes likely makes durability on par or better than older equipment. It's really impossible to test this in the real world though, since you can't recreate the same environment for two bikes. I guess you could look at averages over a huge sample size, but nobody's going to pay for that since only bike tourists would care

But to each their own. I run a 2x11 system on my road touring bike and a 1x12 system on my off-road touring bike. Before that I ran 2x9 for both types of riding. It's all good.

Originally Posted by djb View Post
Niknak and others regarding real life costs, here's a typical example.
A good friend of mine is what I'd call your average person, she has a hybrid, likes riding a bike sometimes but doesn't think of any details. After having her bike for just a few years, took it in for a "tuneup" and was surprised and suspicious about the store telling her she needed a new chain and cassette. Parts and labour.
Your friend was right to be suspicious. If she's a casual rider there's no reason why the bike would need a new cassette after the initial chain wore out, assuming the chain was actually worn out.

I wouldn't call that a typical example of the inferiority of 1x systems, but an example of poor service at a bike shop.

I recently went on a group overnighter on dirt roads and some double track. Out of the six of us we all were using 1x setups but one. The lady with the 3x9 setup was the only person who dropped her chain many times and who got little pebbles stuck in her front derailleur so it wouldn't shift from the small to the middle ring until she cleaned it. The rest of us had zero mechanicals.

There are real reasons why 1x drivetrains exist. Sure, you can save money with older setups. There's nothing wrong with saving money. You can save even more if you do the maintenance work yourself Some of us just prefer to spend a little more for the benefits we feel we get from newer equipment.
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Old 01-25-21, 11:57 AM
  #110  
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its always a balance isn't it? I actually wouldnt be at all surprised if newer chain designs and whatnot have better life, or at least on par with, 9, 10, 11. Technology advances and improves, and its all neat.
In the end, I just see it all as a tool, so you find a system that works, and I'm totally all for more speeds because of the increased range of cassettes, and also for the added fun of using a double system and a tighter cassette, which is always nicer to ride with, whether on a fast unloaded ride or schlepping lots of crap and dealing with a given gradient or headwind or whatever where its nice to have closer jumps between shifts.

so don't take all of this as grumpy old bastards bemoaning new stuff, all bike stuff is cool, and new stuff is always cool too. Its just figuring out and balancing costs, and that does touch on looking at budgets in ones life in the big picture--mortgages, stuff for kids school, this that and all the stuff that life entails.

as for my friends experience, hey I wasnt there, and I didnt check her bike, so who knows. It was just an example of the cost of replacing stuff, and she still would have had a bird if the cassette cost 200 or 300 bucks--and dont forget, if you are American, us Canucks have to spend often quite a bit more for the same doo-dad, new or old.
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Old 01-25-21, 06:03 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
But what impressed me even more was the price for that cassette. List price of $449 USD. You even have a choice of two colors.
https://www.rei.com/product/188095/s...speed-cassette
I am so out of step with the newer components. This cassette cost $200 more than my Miyata 1000 (nearly new condition, 15 years ago).
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Old 01-26-21, 06:08 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by balto charlie View Post
I am so out of step with the newer components. This cassette cost $200 more than my Miyata 1000 (nearly new condition, 15 years ago).
I have not been watching the 12 speed stuff either. He cited something at about half of that cost:
https://www.rei.com/product/126244/s...speed-cassette

And the chain:
https://www.rei.com/product/126249/s...12-speed-chain

So, for only $250 you could replace the expendables in your drivetrain (assuming the chainring lasts longer than that). Quite a bargain. Thats without fee for labor, he said you could do your own work to save more so I assume he is happy to pay the labor bill too.

There are four bike shops within five miles of my home. I can change a chain and cassette at home in less time than it would take for me to put the bike rack on my truck and do two trips to a bike shop to drop off the bike and pick up later.

On my derailleur touring bikes and rando bike, I run triple cranks and an eight speed cassette. I do not use the two most cross-chained gears on each chainring, thus I only use 18 of my 24 possible gears. So, I have 50 percent more usable gears with a wider range than his 12 speed, I use a $12 chain (Amazon) and a $25 cassette (Sram 850, 11-32), but I lack the bragging rights for the latest shiny objects. Everybody has a different view of things.
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Old 01-26-21, 08:01 AM
  #113  
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And for us here in the great white North, 250 Yankee clams is $318 canuck bucks, add on let's say 30% more as stuff costs more here,so $413, add on our 15% sales tax, we're up to $475,
then labour to do the work, so youre looking at 500+ real life costs.
really, I'm not making this stuff up.

And yes, prices will go down , so this is now, I realize. They always do.

But still, heck I'd rather spend the money on other bike touring stuff, or a flight somewhere. Seems to me my one way flights for my Latin American trips were a reasonable chunk less than 500 bucks.
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Old 01-26-21, 12:29 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
And for us here in the great white North, 250 Yankee clams is $318 canuck bucks, add on let's say 30% more as stuff costs more here,so $413, add on our 15% sales tax, we're up to $475,
then labour to do the work, so youre looking at 500+ real life costs.
really, I'm not making this stuff up.

And yes, prices will go down , so this is now, I realize. They always do.

But still, heck I'd rather spend the money on other bike touring stuff, or a flight somewhere. Seems to me my one way flights for my Latin American trips were a reasonable chunk less than 500 bucks.
I keep forgetting how much your sales tax is. I had no idea what it was until I looked at a receipt.

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Old 01-28-21, 03:42 PM
  #115  
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Just ordered Alivio 3X9 FC-T4060 crankset 22-32-44 Cassette will be 12-36
for 17-100 gear inches. Undecided if I will try Sora 3x9 STI or bar end shifters
that I am familiar with.

Hope Alivio quality/durability is good and the low price is due to weight.
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