Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Vintage and classic bicycles without kick stands?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Vintage and classic bicycles without kick stands?

Old 01-20-21, 05:59 PM
  #26  
oldlugs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 207

Bikes: Too many to list

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 8 Posts
To me, any bike without a kickstand isn't complete. There isn't always someplace to lean your bike and sooner or later, it will inevitably end up falling. Its always been my opinion that the better the tubing the more the need for a proper stand. Thin tubes dent easier than do cheaper hi-ten tubes.
I generally always either found a stand that fit or could be made to fit properly for my bikes. Even if it meant spending an hour or so on the milling machine making up a proper top clamp. I always padded the frame with rubber as well. I also remember being able to buy rubber kickstand spacers that were made of plastic, they fit under the frame and around the chainstays with the stand attaching to the flat bottom. All you had to do was Not over tighten the thing.
oldlugs is offline  
Likes For oldlugs:
Old 01-20-21, 06:27 PM
  #27  
EngrJack
EngrJack
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Alaska
Posts: 8

Bikes: 1980 Trek 710, 1999 Trek 720 Multitrack, 2021 Trek Dual Sport 2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by oldlugs View Post
To me, any bike without a kickstand isn't complete. There isn't always someplace to lean your bike and sooner or later, it will inevitably end up falling. Its always been my opinion that the better the tubing the more the need for a proper stand. Thin tubes dent easier than do cheaper hi-ten tubes.
I generally always either found a stand that fit or could be made to fit properly for my bikes. Even if it meant spending an hour or so on the milling machine making up a proper top clamp. I always padded the frame with rubber as well. I also remember being able to buy rubber kickstand spacers that were made of plastic, they fit under the frame and around the chainstays with the stand attaching to the flat bottom. All you had to do was Not over tighten the thing.
Thanks, OldLugs. Many members have given me thoughtful replies about kick stands. And just this morning I was pondering building a nylon spacer to block a kick stand assembly from crushing the chain stay tubes. I did bye an original American made kick stand that hasnít arrived yet. That was before others here advised against careless mounting of clamp type kick stands thatíll flatten the chain stay tubes on vintage / classics with thin walled tubes. So, a handmade nylon spacer and loctite thread compound or a nylock nut just might be the ticket. And clear RTV silicon sealer to act as a sealer/adhesive, and thin neoprene gasket material or heavy electricians tape to wrap the tubes with. I neither want to lay the bike down on its side on concrete or muddy ground, nor will I wish to look for a tree, fence, or wall to lean it againstóonly to have it fall over. Where Iíll likely keep the bike to ride after work is a very bike primitive town with narrow sidewalks, a narrow main drag street, and no bike stand setups with which to secure a bike. My favorite restaurants and clubs donít mind if I bring the bike inside their business (my old 720 Multitrack) and a kick stand for the newest possessionóthe old 710, will be civilized. Another pound of weight wonít hurt anything.
Another issue is the meth heads who will steal a bike thatís unattended. They do exist and are bad news!
EngrJack is offline  
Old 01-20-21, 08:08 PM
  #28  
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 20,241

Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 924 Post(s)
Liked 300 Times in 226 Posts
My first two bikes had kickstands (Schwinn with built-in and low-end Bianchi with bolt-on Pletscher), but I have never felt the need or desire for one since.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline  
Old 01-20-21, 09:08 PM
  #29  
francophile 
PM me your cotters
 
francophile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: ATL
Posts: 3,487
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 979 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times in 300 Posts
Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
Pics or it didn't happen.
I've got some wicked pics, but here's one of a bunch scattered throughout the forum.

__________________
███████████████

francophile is offline  
Old 01-20-21, 10:07 PM
  #30  
thook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Winslow, AR
Posts: 1,581

Bikes: '83 univega gran turismo x2, '85 schwinn super le tour,'89 miyata triple cross, '91 GT tequesta, '90 yokota grizzly peak, '94 GT backwoods, '95'ish scott tampico, '98 bonty privateer, '93 mongoose crossway 625, '98 parkpre ariel, 2k'ish giant fcr3

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked 198 Times in 150 Posts
check out noobinsf's '76 eisentraut thread. "vile kickstand!"...lol
thook is offline  
Old 01-21-21, 07:10 AM
  #31  
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 15,266

Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1207 Post(s)
Liked 194 Times in 169 Posts
Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
I'll echo the above sentiment. Nothing wrong with kickstands, as long as you have a proper mounting arrangement! The Greenfield/Pletscher is probably the lightest one you can get for a standard mount, and still weighs a good bit, but hey, if you make use of it, you can probably find another place to cut weight from.

I just brazed this onto a bike the other day. Had a kickstand on it before, with the bad mounting arrangement. It had tiny dents into the chainstays in spite of hockey tape we'd put down there to prevent it. The mounting plate saves weight because you don't need that top clamp piece or a long bolt to mount the stand. Plus, the stand can't twist, because it's confined by the bent edges of the plate.

Yeah, my wife's Breezer Liberty came with that fixing plate - it is a fantastic addition! It also keeps the stand from twisting if the bolt works loose.
Road Fan is offline  
Likes For Road Fan:
Old 01-25-21, 02:10 PM
  #32  
trek800
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: midwest
Posts: 10

Bikes: trek 800 antelope, older raliegh 10 speed

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Why so many bikes do not have kickstand?

Simple, no demand by buyers. How many buyers demand a kickstand? Almost zero.
trek800 is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 05:35 PM
  #33  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 25,883

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1260 Post(s)
Liked 1,295 Times in 794 Posts
Originally Posted by trek800 View Post
Simple, no demand by buyers. How many buyers demand a kickstand? Almost zero.
Sources please.

You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.

That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.

I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.

My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.

-Kurt
__________________








Last edited by cudak888; 01-25-21 at 05:41 PM.
cudak888 is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 09:00 PM
  #34  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 23,590

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3897 Post(s)
Liked 1,329 Times in 820 Posts
Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
Leaning a bike against a wall or fence is unstable at best and rude at worst. The bike is one flip of the handlebars away from falling over. It is a compromise where you care more about low weight than a safe way of parking your bicycle.
The only safe way that is stable is laying the bike on its side. But good luck doing that in a crowded city without people tripping/running over the frame and causing worse damage.
Oh, please. Leaning a bike against a wall or fence is not “unstable”. I’ve seen plenty of bikes with kickstands topple over because of a gust of wind. I’ve not seen a bike leaned against a wall or fence topple over.

And I’m not sure where you come up with leaning a bike against a wall or fence being “rude”. Most walls and/or fences I lean my bike against are away from traffic and people. If they fall over, they generally aren’t in anyone’s way. The kickstand bikes I’ve seen topple over are generally near a sidewalk or standing out by themselves. They are more likely to be tripped over than a bike leaning against a wall is.

Use a kickstand or don’t. It’s your choice but don’t try to tell us that a kickstand is more stable then leaning a bike against something. I’ve been without a kickstand for nearly 40 years and haven’t had a bike fall over in ages. I won’t say I’ve never had a leaned bike fall over but I’ve also had kickstand bikes fall over when I used them.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.

Last edited by cyccommute; 01-25-21 at 09:05 PM.
cyccommute is offline  
Likes For cyccommute:
Old 01-26-21, 03:04 AM
  #35  
JaccoW
Overdoing projects
 
JaccoW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,949

Bikes: Batavus Randonneur GL, Gazelle Orange Excellent, Gazelle Super Licht, Gazelle Grand Tourist, Gazelle Lausanne, Gazelle Tandem, Koga-Miyata SilverAce, Koga-Miyata WorldTraveller

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 644 Post(s)
Liked 623 Times in 398 Posts
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Oh, please. Leaning a bike against a wall or fence is not ďunstableĒ. Iíve seen plenty of bikes with kickstands topple over because of a gust of wind. Iíve not seen a bike leaned against a wall or fence topple over.

And Iím not sure where you come up with leaning a bike against a wall or fence being ďrudeĒ. Most walls and/or fences I lean my bike against are away from traffic and people. If they fall over, they generally arenít in anyoneís way. The kickstand bikes Iíve seen topple over are generally near a sidewalk or standing out by themselves. They are more likely to be tripped over than a bike leaning against a wall is.

Use a kickstand or donít. Itís your choice but donít try to tell us that a kickstand is more stable then leaning a bike against something. Iíve been without a kickstand for nearly 40 years and havenít had a bike fall over in ages. I wonít say Iíve never had a leaned bike fall over but Iíve also had kickstand bikes fall over when I used them.
I'm not sure you read my second post that was right behind that one? I live and have lived in cities with bikes parked everywhere. Residents are often sick of other people parking bikes against their homes so most windows have a "no bicycle parking" sticker. And with the sheer number of bikes you often won't find an empty rack or fence to park your bike.
And if they fall over they are in people's way. Or you come back to a bike with broken derailleurs or scuffed paint instead. Because people bump into other people's parked bikes by accident. Or because they just don't care.

But that is my experience. Yours might differ.
JaccoW is offline  
Likes For JaccoW:
Old 01-26-21, 05:30 AM
  #36  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 2,462
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 743 Post(s)
Liked 435 Times in 271 Posts
Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
I'm not sure you read my second post that was right behind that one? I live and have lived in cities with bikes parked everywhere. Residents are often sick of other people parking bikes against their homes so most windows have a "no bicycle parking" sticker. And with the sheer number of bikes you often won't find an empty rack or fence to park your bike.
And if they fall over they are in people's way. Or you come back to a bike with broken derailleurs or scuffed paint instead. Because people bump into other people's parked bikes by accident. Or because they just don't care.

But that is my experience. Yours might differ.
I've ridden bikes in high-density cities up and down the East Coast of the U.S. for many decades, and I've never before heard of a "No Bike Parking" sign, much less seen one. You're fortunate to live in a city where so many people ride bikes instead of driving. The OP lives in Alaska, where the likelihood of encountering "No Bike Parking" signs is, I would guess, pretty low, as would be the case for nearly everyone reading this thread.

Riding in cities, I carry a U-lock to secure the bike to a parking meter and and a lightweight cable lock to secure the front wheel to the bike frame---no kickstand needed. Anywhere else, I lean the bike against a tree or whatever's available or prop it by a pedal on a curb or lay it on grass. Never any damage to any of my bikes from doing that, which is more than can be said for bikes with kickstands, which, if and when they fall, invariably fall drivetrain-side down. When that happens, the derailleur or dropout can bend, with the consequent possibility of the derailleur running into the spokes at some point.

So---not everyone wants a kickstand, and better-quality bikes generally should not have chainstay-damaging kickstands installed. If you want a kickstand for a better-quality bike, look into the kickstands that attach at the rear of the bike.
Trakhak is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 08:06 AM
  #37  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 25,883

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1260 Post(s)
Liked 1,295 Times in 794 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
I've ridden bikes in high-density cities up and down the East Coast of the U.S. for many decades, and I've never before heard of a "No Bike Parking" sign, much less seen one. You're fortunate to live in a city where so many people ride bikes instead of driving. The OP lives in Alaska, where the likelihood of encountering "No Bike Parking" signs is, I would guess, pretty low, as would be the case for nearly everyone reading this thread.
It's something fairly unique to countries like the Netherlands, as @JaccoW pointed out. The no-parking/leaning signs may exist in some Danish cities as well; not 100% sure.

At any rate, it's no reason for anyone here to give the middle finger salute to the cultural norms in those countries. Just because we don't have the same number of utility riders in the US doesn't mean we should belittle what the NL does; if anything, the NL should be laughing at our lack of bicycle infra.

Jacco qualified his earlier post enough for the difference in location to be clear - @cyccommute skipped that clarification by to criticize it from the perspective of a US rider only.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Likes For cudak888:
Old 01-26-21, 08:35 AM
  #38  
tkamd73 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 997

Bikes: 1984 Schwinn Supersport, 1988 Trek 400t, 1977 Trek TX900, 1983 Bianchi Champione del Mondo, 1986 Trek 400 Elance, 1978 Raleigh Supercourse, 1991 PDG Paramount OS, 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, 1985 Trek 670

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 280 Times in 179 Posts
Only have one vintage bike with a kickstand, and it came that way from the factory.
Bike is very stable when used, no worry about chain stay, or frame damage, and weight is not an issue, bike weighs a ton anyway.
Would never consider adding a kickstand to my other rides, have yet to come up with a stop, where I couldnít lean the bike up against something, or lay it down, without harming the bike.
Tim



1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer
tkamd73 is offline  
Likes For tkamd73:
Old 01-26-21, 10:12 AM
  #39  
scarlson
Senior Member
 
scarlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 1,159

Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, Renť Herse tandem

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 504 Post(s)
Liked 593 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Sources please.

You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.

That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.

I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.
Yeah, this was my experience too. I worked at a bike shop one summer, 2005 I think, and it was the same deal. An enormous cardboard box full of Greenfields. One on every order. The guy in sales would ask "do you want a kickstand" and unfailingly the customer would nod the affirmative. Easiest upsell ever! That was just the way it was. Then it was my job, as the lackey, to cut another one down to the right length and throw it on the bike. One time the hacksaw slipped and I sliced my finger pretty good on the sharp edge of the newly cut kickstand. That scar is still stained with Greenfield aluminum dust.

My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.
My thoughts exactly, the disdainful talk from all the wannabe Lances in that bike shop when customers weren't around.
scarlson is offline  
Likes For scarlson:
Old 01-26-21, 10:33 AM
  #40  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 23,590

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3897 Post(s)
Liked 1,329 Times in 820 Posts
Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
I'm not sure you read my second post that was right behind that one? I live and have lived in cities with bikes parked everywhere. Residents are often sick of other people parking bikes against their homes so most windows have a "no bicycle parking" sticker. And with the sheer number of bikes you often won't find an empty rack or fence to park your bike.
That “no bicycle parking” sign would apply to kickstanded bikes as well. A kickstand encourages people to park their bikes anywhere they please. When they fall over, the same issues you are bringing up would also occur. The difference is that a bike leaned against a wall or fence is usually more out of the way than a bicycle standing in the middle of a sidewalk. When the bike with the kickstand falls over, it is far more likely to be in someone’s way than one leaning against something.

As to the sign, you provided the translation which I read as saying “Don’t be stupid and block this door.” I don’t advocate that people lean their bikes against a door...that’s just stupid. The sign also mentions parking bikes in a rack “around the corner” while several kickstand parked bikes can be seen reflected in the window. Frankly, that’s almost as bad as leaning a bike against a door. They are almost as much in the way.

And if they fall over they are in people's way. Or you come back to a bike with broken derailleurs or scuffed paint instead. Because people bump into other people's parked bikes by accident. Or because they just don't care.

But that is my experience. Yours might differ.
Which bike is more likely to be bumped into? The one in the middle of a sidewalk or the one leaning against a wall? The one leaned against the wall can only fall one way...away from the wall or fence... and someone just walking along is unlikely to just randomly bump into it in just the right way so that the bike topples over. The same can’t be said of bikes with kickstands, especially if the bike is anywhere near where people walk.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.

Last edited by cyccommute; 01-26-21 at 10:40 AM.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 10:46 AM
  #41  
francophile 
PM me your cotters
 
francophile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: ATL
Posts: 3,487
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 979 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times in 300 Posts
Ooh, ooooh! I found three more pics today after restoring my RAID array from a hard crash this weekend.

These are three different bikes I've bought off eBay the last 10 years where the seller failed to take pictures of the chainstays and a kickstand was present in the listing and/or at some point in life. With the blue one, the seller felt it was "totally normal on every bike".

The red ones look like the same bike, but it's actually two bikes I bought as a pair.




__________________
███████████████

francophile is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 10:52 AM
  #42  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 23,590

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3897 Post(s)
Liked 1,329 Times in 820 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
It's something fairly unique to countries like the Netherlands, as @JaccoW pointed out. The no-parking/leaning signs may exist in some Danish cities as well; not 100% sure.

At any rate, it's no reason for anyone here to give the middle finger salute to the cultural norms in those countries. Just because we don't have the same number of utility riders in the US doesn't mean we should belittle what the NL does; if anything, the NL should be laughing at our lack of bicycle infra.

Jacco qualified his earlier post enough for the difference in location to be clear - @cyccommute skipped that clarification by to criticize it from the perspective of a US rider only.

-Kurt
I did not skip that ďclarificationĒ because it wasnít in the post I responded to. JaccoW said that leaning a bike against a wall is unstable. It isnít...at least it is no more unstable than using a kickstand. If a bike leaning against a wall, fence, tree or any other object is ďone flip of the handlebars away from falling overĒ, so is a bike on a kickstand. The one on the kickstand is even more likely to fall over because the handlebars can be flipped in two directions. Granted, one direction is slightly more stable than the other but it can still fall and it can fall in two directions.

Additionally, as I pointed out, leaning a bike against a wall or something else is away from where people walk. To ďflip the handlebarsĒ someone would have to go out of their way to do so. They arenít likely to just stumble into my bike leaned against something. The same canít be said for kickstanded bikes. Those are usually parked close to the foot traffic way...often in a manner that blocks the sidewalk.


Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.

-Kurt
And you donít think this might have something to do with people not using kickstands?

I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.
Iíd say that most every mountain bike made since around 1995 canít be fitted for a kickstand for similar reasons. A dual suspension bike may not even have a place to clamp one that doesnít cause other problems. Further, kickstands arenít something you want on a bike that is being ridden over rocks or being jumped into the air or even being crashed with some regularity. Having the equivalent of a bayonet on a bike is probably not a good idea if the bike and rider are going to be mixed around like laundry in a washing machine. Most people who ride mountain bikes off-road realize this pretty early on. And, once you get used to not having a kickstand, itís easy to see their lack of utility.

My...and many peoples... avoidance of kickstands isnít because Iím a ďLance wannabeĒ but because we no longer see them as something of much use. In my early days of loaded touring, I watched my kickstand sink into the sand on the side of the road many times as the bike slowly toppled over. After just a few times of that happening, itís just easier to lean the bike against something and, once I got used to leaning it, the kickstand just became unnecessary.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.

Last edited by cyccommute; 01-26-21 at 11:10 AM.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 11:18 AM
  #43  
kross57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: north NJ
Posts: 687

Bikes: Miyata 710, Univega Viva Sport, Centurion LeMans, Peugeot U09

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked 93 Times in 71 Posts
For every bike I see that has suffered damage to the chainstays from the mounting of a kick stand, there is another (or 3) that has dents and scratches in the top tube, fork, seatstays and chainstays from leaning it up against whatever is handy, or laying it on the ground. Not to mention the wear and tear on the saddle and bars. Personally, I would not own a bike without a kickstand. Do what you like. There is no right or wrong.


Last edited by kross57; 01-26-21 at 11:24 AM.
kross57 is offline  
Likes For kross57:
Old 01-26-21, 11:28 AM
  #44  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 23,590

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3897 Post(s)
Liked 1,329 Times in 820 Posts
Originally Posted by kross57 View Post
For every bike I see that has suffered damage to the chainstays from the mounting of a kick stand, there is another (or 3) that has dents and scratches in the top tube, fork, seatstays and chainstays from leaning it up against whatever is handy, or laying it on the ground. Not to mention the wear and tear on the saddle and bars. Personally, I would not own a bike without a kickstand. Do what you like. There is no right or wrong.
I agree with “do what you like”. But how about we avoid the “whataboutism”? There is nothing in leaning a bike against something that would make dents to the top tube, fork, seatstays, or chainstays anymore likely than when using a kickstand. Yes, a bike leaned against something can fall over but so can a bike with a kickstand. No, bikes aren’t so delicate that they can be dented when falling over. And, no, kickstands wouldn’t prevent scratches if the bike falls over which, in my experience, is as likely or even more likely than a leaned bike.

If you lay the bike on the ground all of those issues are even less likely. “Lay” is the operative word. If you “throw” your bike on the ground then, yes, you could damage it. But just laying it on the ground isn’t going to cause damage.

Kickstands crushing the chainstays are a very real issue on lots and lots of bikes. A scratch isn’t a frame killer. A squashed chainstay could be. That bike you posted may have a number of scratches but it is one that would be very susceptible to frame damage if you could even put a kickstand on it. It would certainly have the problem of a kickstand interfering with the front derailer that cudak888 was talking about.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.

Last edited by cyccommute; 01-26-21 at 11:32 AM.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 11:47 AM
  #45  
kross57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: north NJ
Posts: 687

Bikes: Miyata 710, Univega Viva Sport, Centurion LeMans, Peugeot U09

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked 93 Times in 71 Posts
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I agree with ďdo what you likeĒ. But how about we avoid the ďwhataboutismĒ? There is nothing in leaning a bike against something that would make dents to the top tube, fork, seatstays, or chainstays anymore likely than when using a kickstand. Yes, a bike leaned against something can fall over but so can a bike with a kickstand. No, bikes arenít so delicate that they can be dented when falling over. And, no, kickstands wouldnít prevent scratches if the bike falls over which, in my experience, is as likely or even more likely than a leaned bike.

If you lay the bike on the ground all of those issues are even less likely. ďLayĒ is the operative word. If you ďthrowĒ your bike on the ground then, yes, you could damage it. But just laying it on the ground isnít going to cause damage.

Kickstands crushing the chainstays are a very real issue on lots and lots of bikes. A scratch isnít a frame killer. A squashed chainstay could be. That bike you posted may have a number of scratches but it is one that would be very susceptible to frame damage if you could even put a kickstand on it. It would certainly have the problem of a kickstand interfering with the front derailer that cudak888 was talking about.
I can only go by what I see. I have NEVER seen a chainstay crushed by a kickstand. Scratched? Yes. Crushed? No. I have seen lots of dented and scratched frames on bikes without kickstands, much less on bikes with them. It is what it is.

I'm not saying some bikes are not difficult candidates for mounting a kickstand. I consider that a design flaw.

I suppose you can be careful about how you lean your bike. You can also be careful about how you use a kickstand. I have never had a bike fall while using a properly mounted and used kickstand.

Laying your bike on the ground is a mistake. One misstep by some poor guy who doesn't see it, and that's that.

Point is, you can make valid arguments either way. As I said, there is no right or wrong.
kross57 is offline  
Likes For kross57:
Old 01-26-21, 11:49 AM
  #46  
scarlson
Senior Member
 
scarlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 1,159

Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, Renť Herse tandem

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 504 Post(s)
Liked 593 Times in 351 Posts
For all my defense of kickstands, it's true, I don't use one. It's how I was brought up. On bike tours, I'd rig a guy rope and some tent stakes to hold the bike up, which allowed for easy access to both sides. It was a little bit of work and I only did it when camped, not when stopped for meals or shopping.

If I know it's a good fit, I'm happy to braze a mounting plate onto someone else's bike to make it work!

A lot of motorcyclists take a little piece of metal or wood with them, which they can place under the kickstand when on soft ground to prevent it sinking in.

It is a little crazy to me that nobody makes a nice plastic block to properly secure a kickstand to chainstays. I get that chainstays are all different shapes, but one could probably sell 3 different sizes and have the user file to match. Capitalism prevents this, I guess.

The guys at the bike shop weren't wannabe lances because of the kickstand business - rather it was the other way around. It was a whole toxic culture in a community I was briefly part of in the early '00s and I shouldn't have mentioned it.

Last edited by scarlson; 01-26-21 at 12:07 PM.
scarlson is offline  
Likes For scarlson:
Old 01-26-21, 11:59 AM
  #47  
francophile 
PM me your cotters
 
francophile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: ATL
Posts: 3,487
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 979 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times in 300 Posts
Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
It is a little crazy to me that nobody makes a nice plastic block to properly secure a kickstand to chainstays. I get that chainstays are all different shapes, but one could probably sell 3 different sizes and have the user file to match. Capitalism prevents this, I guess.
I can't recall if it was Pletscher or ESGE, but one of the two (maybe both) had double-U shaped blocks that would stop the kickstand plates from denting the tubes. They were (at least) around during the 80s, a few years before I got my 1st wrench job. I tried a quick hunt to find pics but coming up empty.

Edit: There's a modern version still available. If you search the web for 'pletscher sandwich set' you'll find it. rivendell has them in stock. Although what I remember had four pieces, a pair of top and bottom pieces, one pair for each chainstay.
__________________
███████████████


Last edited by francophile; 01-26-21 at 12:06 PM.
francophile is offline  
Likes For francophile:
Old 01-26-21, 12:06 PM
  #48  
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 15,266

Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1207 Post(s)
Liked 194 Times in 169 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Sources please.

You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.

That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.

I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.

My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.

-Kurt
Stamped steel for a BB kickstand, I think, goes back to the late 1950s when I first learned to ride a 20 incher. I wouldn't say they are POS, just heavy and inelegant. The Pletcher is light, functional, off the market and durable, and IMO the Greenfields are light, functional and not durable. Wife's Breezer has a two-leg from Civita (I think) and it is a nice design.
Road Fan is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 12:29 PM
  #49  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 7,336

Bikes: 85 team Miyata (modern 5800 105) , '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) '82 nishiski,

Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1285 Post(s)
Liked 532 Times in 381 Posts
I don't use kick stand on my nice road bikes....mix of no damage, aethetics and weight.

I have seen many abused frames from clamp on kickstands.....

I have also have had my bikes over the years fall from kickstands, vs just leaning them

I do have a kickstand on my utility/commuter and it is the only type I would use the greenfield read stablizer. the way it is mounted I see little risk to tube crushing and it works way better for me than a center kick stand

__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
squirtdad is offline  
Old 01-26-21, 12:32 PM
  #50  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 23,590

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3897 Post(s)
Liked 1,329 Times in 820 Posts
Originally Posted by kross57 View Post
I can only go by what I see. I have NEVER seen a chainstay crushed by a kickstand. Scratched? Yes. Crushed? No. I have seen lots of dented and scratched frames on bikes without kickstands, much less on bikes with them. It is what it is.
Look at posts 15, 29, and 41. Iíve scrapped plenty of bikes at my local co-op that had similar damage at my local co-op. Many of them have been relatively nice vintage bikes that werenít designed for kickstands but Iíve seen plenty of others. Granted, it is usually user error where they go all gorilla on the bolts but it happens. Aluminum frames are even more prone to damage from the kickstand moving on the stay. That erodes holes in the stay which renders the frame unuseable.

I'm not saying some bikes are not difficult candidates for mounting a kickstand. I consider that a design flaw.
That depends on what the bike was designed for. As Iíve mentioned, mountain bikes are a place where kickstands are not only unnecessary and unwanted but present a possible injury hazard. I have a fast road bike that has rear wheel close enough to the seat tube that a 28mm tire rubs on the derailer clamp. It also has a very light frame that would certainly crush if I used a kickstand. I have other bikes that I could probably use a kickstand on but as Iím used to leaning my bike against things, I donít find any utility in using one on those bikes.

I suppose you can be careful about how you lean your bike. You can also be careful about how you use a kickstand. I have never had a bike fall while using a properly mounted and used kickstand.
Thatís kind of my point. Be careful where you park your bike. Iíve never had a bike topple over when leaned against something. Iíve never seen anyone elseís bike fall over when itís leaned against a solid object. I have seen bikes blown over while using a kickstand. Iíve had my own bikes blown over while using a kickstand. Iíve never had a wind blow over a leaned bike. Wind really canít blow over a bike leaned against a solid object because it is either blowing the bike into the object or the object is sheltering the bike from the wind.

Laying your bike on the ground is a mistake. One misstep by some poor guy who doesn't see it, and that's that.
No, laying a bike on the ground isnít a mistake. If you lay the bike down in the middle of foot traffic, thatís not just a mistake but itís being a jerk. But Iíve seen lots and lots of jerks that park their bikes on kickstands in the middle of traffic...both foot and bicycle...because they have a kickstand.

Point is, you can make valid arguments either way. As I said, there is no right or wrong.
Yes, you can make valid arguments either way. But people who use kickstands often bring up invalid arguments like leaned bikes are more likely to fall over.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
cyccommute is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.