Training and Racing with Power Meters and other computers
#101
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Can anyone recommend me a cheap(affordable) cadence/speed sensor with computer?
I currently own a Powertap Bluetooth Speed/cadence sensor, but it's slow and cannot read my cadence when I go over 158rpm.
I currently own a Powertap Bluetooth Speed/cadence sensor, but it's slow and cannot read my cadence when I go over 158rpm.
#102
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#103
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Measured deflection. But no way to know if accurate...
#104
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That's essentially how SRM power meters work.
I'd imagine that the creator would have to calibrate the PM with known weights to set the appropriate offset/slope the same way that SRM cranks are calibrated. But, yes, that step is not listed in that tutorial.
On a related note. This is why it's very important to calibrate your cranks before your efforts. Heat (or cold) can change how the metal in the cranks respond to your torque. Same if you calibrate your set the slope of your SRM in the AC of your home then leave the bike in the sun before your effort. Your cranks will be much warmer and flexier and the values that the strain gauges record will be higher.
I'd imagine that the creator would have to calibrate the PM with known weights to set the appropriate offset/slope the same way that SRM cranks are calibrated. But, yes, that step is not listed in that tutorial.
On a related note. This is why it's very important to calibrate your cranks before your efforts. Heat (or cold) can change how the metal in the cranks respond to your torque. Same if you calibrate your set the slope of your SRM in the AC of your home then leave the bike in the sun before your effort. Your cranks will be much warmer and flexier and the values that the strain gauges record will be higher.
#105
Senior Member
Essentially yes. Both use strain gauges in a Wheatstone bridge arrangement, with the SRM fitting these on the spider and the homemade one on the crank arms.
Always calibrate before and depending on the conditions during.
Being able to calculate the Slope offset is a great feature with the SRM. I have a 20kg +-4g calibration weight just for this very purpose...
Always calibrate before and depending on the conditions during.
Being able to calculate the Slope offset is a great feature with the SRM. I have a 20kg +-4g calibration weight just for this very purpose...
#106
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So the next thing is, does anyone here think they could streamline that thing so it doesn't look all janky?
#107
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It would be a great project for sure, but no where near cost effective.
To put it all into perspective, here is the first SRM, which already seems to be ahead of the system linked above. And we know how far the SRM has come.
Stages is probably the closest thing to this. I think they basically glue strain gauges to cranks with known deflection specs. Why they won't glue one to the other side and measure both cranks, I'm not sure.
#108
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As to not rushing into the dual sided market, there isn't a need at the moment. Enough people are happy to go with the Stages only measuring one leg. Thinking many are just happy to record their rides and tell everyone at the coffee shop post ride they own a PM...
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I'll be honest. Even when I did have power meters on my road and track bikes, there were times when I really didn't care to look at the data. "That Sunday ride was just like all the others..."
The Power Meter is like a Piano in the home. Awesome if you know how to use it and are willing to use it. Otherwise, it's just an expensive piece of furniture.
On a related note...did you know that Tennis racquets now have "Smart Sensors" that are similar to what Power Meters are to bikes?
I asked a guy in the tennis pro shop, "So...now that a player has all of this data, what do they do with it?" He kinda shrugged and said, "Heh...I'm not really sure."
#110
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I like the piano analogy. Very true!
Wasn't aware of the latest in tennis racquets! There are the RPM² insoles for running (and marketed for cyclists) but haven't seen any data or comments yet... https://www.rpm2.com/
Wasn't aware of the latest in tennis racquets! There are the RPM² insoles for running (and marketed for cyclists) but haven't seen any data or comments yet... https://www.rpm2.com/
#111
aka mattio
There has been rumours of dual sided Stages out in the wild, but so far these are just rumours.
As to not rushing into the dual sided market, there isn't a need at the moment. Enough people are happy to go with the Stages only measuring one leg. Thinking many are just happy to record their rides and tell everyone at the coffee shop post ride they own a PM...
As to not rushing into the dual sided market, there isn't a need at the moment. Enough people are happy to go with the Stages only measuring one leg. Thinking many are just happy to record their rides and tell everyone at the coffee shop post ride they own a PM...
#113
Senior Member
I think with the pedals, one side is just a slave and the data flows through the other master side. Just gluing a Stages sensor on the spider side means you have two masters...
#114
Blast from the Past
Thought I would pass on a quirk I see in the Power2Max track (and road). The screen shot attached is from an acceleration. Note that the peak rpm lags speed by a good 3 seconds (peak speed at 40:20, rpm @ 40:23). This has been very consistent at 3 to 4 seconds. It also reads about 200W lower peak than Quarq or Powertap (i would guess related if torque and rpm are offset).
I've discussed this with Power2Max and they state its "normal" and is is essentially due to how they use the accelerometer for cadence. Doesn't really impact steady state efforts. But something to take into account when considering this power meter, if you want to benchmark shorter efforts.
I've discussed this with Power2Max and they state its "normal" and is is essentially due to how they use the accelerometer for cadence. Doesn't really impact steady state efforts. But something to take into account when considering this power meter, if you want to benchmark shorter efforts.
#115
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I've discussed this with Power2Max and they state its "normal" and is is essentially due to how they use the accelerometer for cadence. Doesn't really impact steady state efforts. But something to take into account when considering this power meter, if you want to benchmark shorter efforts.
This is why it sucks for bike manufacturers to say, "SURE! It'll work on the track, too!". Just because something will fit on a track bike doesn't mean it's designed for use on a track bike.
To be honest, at this point, track racing is more different than similar to road racing. Like comparing Lacrosse to Soccer (get the ball in the net more times than the other team). Similar in concept, but very different in execution and details.
#116
Blast from the Past
Yea the data is pretty messed up.
I believe that Quarq has a distinct design advantage here. They use multiple reed switches, so they are updating cadence several times per crank revolution.
I believe that Quarq has a distinct design advantage here. They use multiple reed switches, so they are updating cadence several times per crank revolution.
Last edited by Voodoo76; 06-28-16 at 06:44 AM.
#117
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Hence why I stated earlier that a company should start development with a track powermeter, then dumb it down for road.
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From a cost/benefit perspective, its not going to happen (for commercially available stuff, that is. Maybe different for hour-record/ olympic-team/ etc type scenarios)
#119
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A lot of the original limitations are now gone. Those mainly being that flash memory was expensive and batteries weren't very good.
Compare a PowerTap head unit from 2007 to what can be made today.
But, Product Owners have to one-up each other. Instead of going for more precise data, they work on things like integrating wifi into a bicycle head unit. GPS drains a head unit much faster than having the option to record data more frequently.
Also, I think the BlueTooth spec needs to be updated.
Compare a PowerTap head unit from 2007 to what can be made today.
But, Product Owners have to one-up each other. Instead of going for more precise data, they work on things like integrating wifi into a bicycle head unit. GPS drains a head unit much faster than having the option to record data more frequently.
Also, I think the BlueTooth spec needs to be updated.
#120
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#121
Blast from the Past
Do other meters using an accelerometer (eg Stages) have similar timing problems with cadence or is this a Power2Max firmware issue?
#123
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queerpunk, that's very interesting.
This was a little gear, 49x16 with a 700x23 tire. I don't know the exact rollout of this tire but it seems like at 32mph I ought to be closer to 135. The data looks to me like they are averaging.
At 28 mph on the way up I'm at 95rpm, on the way down I'm at 125. Must be some sort of magic hub! I'm going to do a little jump in a similar gear on my road bike (P2Max meter) tonight & see what that looks like.
This was a little gear, 49x16 with a 700x23 tire. I don't know the exact rollout of this tire but it seems like at 32mph I ought to be closer to 135. The data looks to me like they are averaging.
At 28 mph on the way up I'm at 95rpm, on the way down I'm at 125. Must be some sort of magic hub! I'm going to do a little jump in a similar gear on my road bike (P2Max meter) tonight & see what that looks like.
Last edited by Voodoo76; 06-28-16 at 11:07 AM.
#124
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Voodoo, if accurate data is important to you, I'd advise looking into a good head unit as well as good cranks. Most road setups round like hell.
If you have an iPhone, the Simulator feature of my app will help you do all of the calculations you need.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/trac...926154537?mt=8
You are right that it should be close to 135rpm...134 exactly:
If you have an iPhone, the Simulator feature of my app will help you do all of the calculations you need.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/trac...926154537?mt=8
You are right that it should be close to 135rpm...134 exactly:
#125
Blast from the Past
Carlton, life is too short for bad data! Doubly true at 60, you feel like there aren't too many years left where it will even be worth recording I'll check out the app for sure, appreciate the tip.
As for averaging I agree to an extent. What is displayed is averaged depending on how you set up the head unit. But I've never seen recorded "raw" 1s data look like this. Same head unit (Garmin 510) or an alternate (Powertap Joule) with PT hub or Quarq does not look at all like this.
As for averaging I agree to an extent. What is displayed is averaged depending on how you set up the head unit. But I've never seen recorded "raw" 1s data look like this. Same head unit (Garmin 510) or an alternate (Powertap Joule) with PT hub or Quarq does not look at all like this.