Help a bike newbie out
#1
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Help a bike newbie out
Hey everyone, I just want to start off and say boy am I glad I found out about this whole forum. There is so much cool information here and it's really helping me learn more. I have always been into bikes but never had enough time/money to put into it. I just graduated university and got a job so for the first time I am able to pursue my first project build for fun! Please bear with me, as I am learning a lot as I go.
I bought this 1970 Raleigh Grand Prix off the internet in Ottawa for $100 with all the original parts. My goal is essentially to build a brand new bike that I can ride for fun out of the vintage frame. That means I don't plan on keeping too many of the original parts (although I will likely keep the handlebars). I do want to change it from downtube shifting to brifters. I know I would need to find a groupset but that's where I get lost. I have a few questions for all of your knowledgeable folk:
- Can I Frankenstein the bike by adding a ton of different parts from different groupsets? I'm having a hard time finding used groupsets that come with everything (brifter, brake sets, front/rear derailleur, crankset, cassette).
- Does the wheel I buy depend on the freewheel/cassette I end up buying? If so which should I get first?
- The dropouts for this frame measure 130mm of space in between them. What speed freewheel/cassette can I fit in there?
- What's the best way I could do this build while not spending way too much (ie buying a brand new groupset)?
- There is a decent dent in the side of one of the dropout bars (I'm realizing that I cannot include images yet, maybe PM me if you are willing to help with this and I can send you the photo?). Is this bad enough to consider the bike un-ride-able?
- How would you rebuild this bike?
Anyways, I just wanted to say I am really excited to start working on this bike. I've already picked what colours I want to paint it! I would really appreciate your guys' help! Thanks in advance.
I bought this 1970 Raleigh Grand Prix off the internet in Ottawa for $100 with all the original parts. My goal is essentially to build a brand new bike that I can ride for fun out of the vintage frame. That means I don't plan on keeping too many of the original parts (although I will likely keep the handlebars). I do want to change it from downtube shifting to brifters. I know I would need to find a groupset but that's where I get lost. I have a few questions for all of your knowledgeable folk:
- Can I Frankenstein the bike by adding a ton of different parts from different groupsets? I'm having a hard time finding used groupsets that come with everything (brifter, brake sets, front/rear derailleur, crankset, cassette).
- Does the wheel I buy depend on the freewheel/cassette I end up buying? If so which should I get first?
- The dropouts for this frame measure 130mm of space in between them. What speed freewheel/cassette can I fit in there?
- What's the best way I could do this build while not spending way too much (ie buying a brand new groupset)?
- There is a decent dent in the side of one of the dropout bars (I'm realizing that I cannot include images yet, maybe PM me if you are willing to help with this and I can send you the photo?). Is this bad enough to consider the bike un-ride-able?
- How would you rebuild this bike?
Anyways, I just wanted to say I am really excited to start working on this bike. I've already picked what colours I want to paint it! I would really appreciate your guys' help! Thanks in advance.
#2
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What you are proposing can be done, but probably doesn't make much sense economically. Unless you can do all the work yourself (or have a bike mechanic buddy who owes you a big favor) and have all or most of the parts you need, tearing a 1970 bike down to the frame and building it back up with all modern parts is very likely going to cost you as much, or likely more than just finding a modern road bike, either used in ready to ride condition, or new, hopefully on sale. Because an entry level new bike should be available for around $800 or $900 US, or a used one for maybe $400 or $500. Buying new everything for a vintage bike, including drivetrain components, shifters, wheels, tires, etc, plus labor will cost you at least what an entry level new bike, or quality modern used bike will cost.
My suggestion is, either clean the bike up and ride more or less as is, or just buy another bike.
My suggestion is, either clean the bike up and ride more or less as is, or just buy another bike.
#3
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What you are proposing can be done, but probably doesn't make much sense economically. Unless you can do all the work yourself (or have a bike mechanic buddy who owes you a big favor) and have all or most of the parts you need, tearing a 1970 bike down to the frame and building it back up with all modern parts is very likely going to cost you as much, or likely more than just finding a modern road bike, either used in ready to ride condition, or new, hopefully on sale. Because an entry level new bike should be available for around $800 or $900 US, or a used one for maybe $400 or $500. Buying new everything for a vintage bike, including drivetrain components, shifters, wheels, tires, etc, plus labor will cost you at least what an entry level new bike, or quality modern used bike will cost.
My suggestion is, either clean the bike up and ride more or less as is, or just buy another bike.
My suggestion is, either clean the bike up and ride more or less as is, or just buy another bike.
#4
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Sorry I didn't word my post clearly. When I said brand new bike I meant like none of the old parts from the frame, not brand new modern parts. If I can find a used groupset with integrated shifting that is the ideal situation. Thank you for your reply though, I will take that advice into consideration.
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the Gran Prix frame has two specifications which do not lend themselves readily to upgrade/modernization
a) the steerer is 26TPI, also sometimes referred to as "Raleigh thread" - this means you cannot upgrade the headset
b) the bottom bracket shell has a width of 71mm, an old obsolete dimension, and its thread is also 26TPI, yet another old/obsolete dimension for which modern parts are not easily availble
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the Gran Prix frame has two specifications which do not lend themselves readily to upgrade/modernization
a) the steerer is 26TPI, also sometimes referred to as "Raleigh thread" - this means you cannot upgrade the headset
b) the bottom bracket shell has a width of 71mm, an old obsolete dimension, and its thread is also 26TPI, yet another old/obsolete dimension for which modern parts are not easily availble
-----
#7
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the Gran Prix frame has two specifications which do not lend themselves readily to upgrade/modernization
a) the steerer is 26TPI, also sometimes referred to as "Raleigh thread" - this means you cannot upgrade the headset
b) the bottom bracket shell has a width of 71mm, an old obsolete dimension, and its thread is also 26TPI, yet another old/obsolete dimension for which modern parts are not easily availble
-----
the Gran Prix frame has two specifications which do not lend themselves readily to upgrade/modernization
a) the steerer is 26TPI, also sometimes referred to as "Raleigh thread" - this means you cannot upgrade the headset
b) the bottom bracket shell has a width of 71mm, an old obsolete dimension, and its thread is also 26TPI, yet another old/obsolete dimension for which modern parts are not easily availble
-----
#8
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upgrading/modernisation generally will go easier with a base for the project which is all of BSC/ISO dimension. this is sometimes referred to as "English" thread/dimension/specification.
with Raleigh (and the many badges it bought up) when you get into older things you often find "Raleigh dimension" parts which do not lend themselves easily to upgrade/modernisation.
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Last edited by juvela; 05-30-20 at 05:07 PM. Reason: spellin'
#9
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Hey everyone, I just want to start off and say boy am I glad I found out about this whole forum. There is so much cool information here and it's really helping me learn more. I have always been into bikes but never had enough time/money to put into it. I just graduated university and got a job so for the first time I am able to pursue my first project build for fun! Please bear with me, as I am learning a lot as I go............
.
.
There are plenty of 1980's "Made in Japan" bikes that would be easier to build up with new or used components of that same era.
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#10
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Per Juvela's comments.
You said you bought off the internet.
Is it a Canadian made GP? If so it might be standard thread. I had a Carlton made Super GP that was Raleigh thread. Not certain but I believe the other 4 I had were Canadian made and that I switched out parts with no issues. Someone more experienced than I will hopefully post to confirm or refute Canadian made threads.
I can check my son's GP if you need.
Update: Digital caliper batteries are dead. May have to reach out to @T-Mar or bertinjim for advice....
You said you bought off the internet.
Is it a Canadian made GP? If so it might be standard thread. I had a Carlton made Super GP that was Raleigh thread. Not certain but I believe the other 4 I had were Canadian made and that I switched out parts with no issues. Someone more experienced than I will hopefully post to confirm or refute Canadian made threads.
I can check my son's GP if you need.
Update: Digital caliper batteries are dead. May have to reach out to @T-Mar or bertinjim for advice....
Last edited by WGB; 05-30-20 at 06:06 PM.
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#11
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#12
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Hey man! Welcome to the forum! I started in a similar place as you (I'm still a newbie btw): I got a good deal on a vintage frame that I liked, and then I started buying parts here and there, trying to collect parts from one same groupset to make sure everything worked well together (e.g.: Ultegra 6500). It ended up costing me WAY more than simply buying a complete build altogether. It turns out that it's almost ALWAYS cheaper buying a complete build than buying parts separately, but choosing your parts is fun!
If I can summarize everything I learned in this forum so far, this would be it: Campy and Shimano parts don't mix very well (except maybe for front derailleurs), so you should try to keep them together as much as possible, otherwise you'll need extra stuff to make them compatible. Bottom bracket spindle lengths depend on the crankset that will go on there (and in the best of worlds, with the rear derailleur too). Some mechanics are magicians in getting things to work well, but in theory, it's always better to have matching specs between parts. One way of saving yourself the trouble, is either getting parts from the same groupset or choosing one groupset of reference, and then looking for parts that match the specs of the groupset you chose. Rear derailleur can be one speed lower than your shifters and cassette, but not the other way around. So brifters must match the number of speeds in your cassette; derailleurs should have less or equal number of speeds as the brifters.
What starts a build for me is a really nice part that I got incredibly cheap. But of course there's no point in choosing an entire groupset just based on a bottom bracket someone gave you. I would start with the most expensive part. For me, that would be the brifters or the wheelset. If I get a really nice deal on a pair of brifters from a good groupset, then that's the groupset I'll go for. The rest is just a matter of being patient and keeping an eye open for the parts you're looking for. If you're not patient, you're gonna pay a lot of money, simply because older parts don't seem to go down in value and there's always people around that will pay any price for replacements on their bikes.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
If I can summarize everything I learned in this forum so far, this would be it: Campy and Shimano parts don't mix very well (except maybe for front derailleurs), so you should try to keep them together as much as possible, otherwise you'll need extra stuff to make them compatible. Bottom bracket spindle lengths depend on the crankset that will go on there (and in the best of worlds, with the rear derailleur too). Some mechanics are magicians in getting things to work well, but in theory, it's always better to have matching specs between parts. One way of saving yourself the trouble, is either getting parts from the same groupset or choosing one groupset of reference, and then looking for parts that match the specs of the groupset you chose. Rear derailleur can be one speed lower than your shifters and cassette, but not the other way around. So brifters must match the number of speeds in your cassette; derailleurs should have less or equal number of speeds as the brifters.
What starts a build for me is a really nice part that I got incredibly cheap. But of course there's no point in choosing an entire groupset just based on a bottom bracket someone gave you. I would start with the most expensive part. For me, that would be the brifters or the wheelset. If I get a really nice deal on a pair of brifters from a good groupset, then that's the groupset I'll go for. The rest is just a matter of being patient and keeping an eye open for the parts you're looking for. If you're not patient, you're gonna pay a lot of money, simply because older parts don't seem to go down in value and there's always people around that will pay any price for replacements on their bikes.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
#13
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upgrading/modernisation generally will go easier with a base for the project which is all of BSC/ISO dimension. this is sometimes referred to as "English" thread/dimension/specification.
with Raleigh (and the many badges it bought up) when you get into older things you often find "Raleigh dimension" parts which do not lend themselves easily to upgrade/modernisation.
-----
upgrading/modernisation generally will go easier with a base for the project which is all of BSC/ISO dimension. this is sometimes referred to as "English" thread/dimension/specification.
with Raleigh (and the many badges it bought up) when you get into older things you often find "Raleigh dimension" parts which do not lend themselves easily to upgrade/modernisation.
-----
#14
Senior Member
Given the unusual headset and BB characteristics of your bike mentioned by another poster, you could use it as a good opportunity to source inexpensive used parts to rebuild/upgrade to the extent that you wish (ebay, CL) - maybe clean-up/re-use/re-grease some of the existing pieces. Planning, researching, finding, wrenching, learning, etc. is half the fun.
Once you learn more about what vintage bikes appeal to you and what it takes to make a C&V bike what you want it to be - then it will be time to search out your next ride - set a budget and buy what you need - a chance to be creative.
I gravitate toward mid-80's sport/tour bikes that are upgraded with more modern components and 650b wheels. I spent about $800+ on components for my first rebuild/upgrade of a 1985 bike - 2x10 crank, 10 speed cassette, RD, bars, indexed DT shifters, long reach brakes, chain, 650b rims/spokes/hubs (built my own wheels), tires, tubes, brake levers, cables/housings, pedals, tape, bar cushion, fenders, etc.
This is a sizable infusion of cash, but almost all of it (except the cables and housings, maybe the chain) can be moved over to another frame/fork should I decide to try something different. I am very happy with the components I bought and the completed bike. The only reason I might move on to another frame/fork is that I would like to try a slightly bigger frame built with Reynolds 531 steel - just because.
Or, maybe someday I'll go all-in with a brand new 'all road' frame - re-use some of my existing parts and buy some new stuff - hoping to get my 'forever bike' - isn't that every rider's ultimate goal? Maybe... Something like the one shown below.
If you are interested in 650b conversion here is a good place to start reading: 650B Conversion Guidlines
Have fun with your new hobby!
Once you learn more about what vintage bikes appeal to you and what it takes to make a C&V bike what you want it to be - then it will be time to search out your next ride - set a budget and buy what you need - a chance to be creative.
I gravitate toward mid-80's sport/tour bikes that are upgraded with more modern components and 650b wheels. I spent about $800+ on components for my first rebuild/upgrade of a 1985 bike - 2x10 crank, 10 speed cassette, RD, bars, indexed DT shifters, long reach brakes, chain, 650b rims/spokes/hubs (built my own wheels), tires, tubes, brake levers, cables/housings, pedals, tape, bar cushion, fenders, etc.
This is a sizable infusion of cash, but almost all of it (except the cables and housings, maybe the chain) can be moved over to another frame/fork should I decide to try something different. I am very happy with the components I bought and the completed bike. The only reason I might move on to another frame/fork is that I would like to try a slightly bigger frame built with Reynolds 531 steel - just because.
Or, maybe someday I'll go all-in with a brand new 'all road' frame - re-use some of my existing parts and buy some new stuff - hoping to get my 'forever bike' - isn't that every rider's ultimate goal? Maybe... Something like the one shown below.
If you are interested in 650b conversion here is a good place to start reading: 650B Conversion Guidlines
Have fun with your new hobby!
#15
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I'm with @WGB, if it's a CDN made Raleigh it may not have any funky "Raleigh specific" threading. Same goes if its a later-edition English made one. But you'd want to know, before you buy a donor bike to swap parts from.
But I'm also with the guys who say a Grand Prix isn't necessarily worth the effort. I'd use it to learn the basic assembly, disassembly and rejuvenation skills with the parts it already has, and then move on to a more worthy higher-end frame.
But I'm also with the guys who say a Grand Prix isn't necessarily worth the effort. I'd use it to learn the basic assembly, disassembly and rejuvenation skills with the parts it already has, and then move on to a more worthy higher-end frame.
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● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
Last edited by Lascauxcaveman; 05-30-20 at 08:49 PM.
#16
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I'm with @WGB, if it's a CDN made Raleigh it may not have any funky "Raleigh specific" threading. Same goes if its a later-edition English made one. But you'd want to know, before you buy a donor bike to swap parts from.
If you want to change from cottered to square tapered spindle, you do just that, no need to change the cups.
The Grand Prix is a solid well-made bike and is definitely worth the effort. Even with all of its stock components, if restored and tuned properly will provide another 50 years of enjoyable riding.
#17
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I don't see why the 26tpi threading is a problem. I've restored at least a dozen vintage Raleigh bikes and have never needed to replace the headset or bottom bracket, even on those bikes that have never had their bb or hs repacked. They are pretty durable and will last even with the old dried up grease.
If you want to change from cottered to square tapered spindle, you do just that, no need to change the cups.
The Grand Prix is a solid well-made bike and is definitely worth the effort. Even with all of its stock components, if restored and tuned properly will provide another 50 years of enjoyable riding.
If you want to change from cottered to square tapered spindle, you do just that, no need to change the cups.
The Grand Prix is a solid well-made bike and is definitely worth the effort. Even with all of its stock components, if restored and tuned properly will provide another 50 years of enjoyable riding.
__________________
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
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#18
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Sure, that's all true about a Schwinn Varsity, too. And I would rather have something a little ritzier when I'm done with my project. I suppose it all depends on how much effort and money you want top spend on lower-rung bike when there are alternatives that would offer a more sprightly ride.
The bottom bracket MIGHT be an issue. There's likely a cotterless bracket that would work ok with this, but if not, there are worse things in life than having a bicycle with a cottered crankset. Chainrings would have to be replaced with alloy ones of the appropriate thinness for whatever choice of speeds selected. I am pretty sure that whatever rear derailleur is used would need to get equipped with a hanger, and the rear dropouts either permanently, or cold-set to 130mm. That shouldn't be an issue unless the brazing is particularly egregious.
I would recommend going with 9 speed brifters. There were a lot of them made, and they were the standard for a relatively long time. Once selected, all that would remain is to go with compatible front and rear derailleurs, and rear hub/cassette.
I've converted a couple older Raleighs (1971 Super Course and 1972 Competition) to bicycles with a 9-speed cassette in the drivetrain. Granted, I used Bar-cons, but other than this detail, the concept was the same. True, another bicycle with a lighter frame and without proprietary threading could be found, but the result would be maybe 5 ounces lighter. On the plus side, if the original parts are still usable, and were retained, the parts used for the upgrade could easily be transferred over to a future bicycle that might be a bit lighter and have a bit more going on in the prestige department.
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#19
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If you haven't already, you should go read and digest as much of Sheldon Brown's website as you humanly can. Starting with Sheldon Brown's page "Threading/interchangeability Issues for Older Raleigh Bicycles"
#20
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If your main goal is to upgrade a 5 or 6-speed to brifters, then the easiest and cheapest route is to find a pair of pre-2001 Campagnolo 9-speed brifters and a Shimano SIS rear derailleur. They'll work with the existing parts.
Last edited by non-fixie; 05-31-20 at 02:15 AM.
#21
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Per Juvela's comments.
You said you bought off the internet.
Is it a Canadian made GP? If so it might be standard thread. I had a Carlton made Super GP that was Raleigh thread. Not certain but I believe the other 4 I had were Canadian made and that I switched out parts with no issues. Someone more experienced than I will hopefully post to confirm or refute Canadian made threads.
I can check my son's GP if you need.
Update: Digital caliper batteries are dead. May have to reach out to @T-Mar or bertinjim for advice....
You said you bought off the internet.
Is it a Canadian made GP? If so it might be standard thread. I had a Carlton made Super GP that was Raleigh thread. Not certain but I believe the other 4 I had were Canadian made and that I switched out parts with no issues. Someone more experienced than I will hopefully post to confirm or refute Canadian made threads.
I can check my son's GP if you need.
Update: Digital caliper batteries are dead. May have to reach out to @T-Mar or bertinjim for advice....
Note to WGB: To-morrow is the big day. The organizer will announce if Henley is cancelled, so I'll know whether or not I"ll be paying you another visit during the first weekend of August.
Last edited by T-Mar; 05-31-20 at 05:20 AM.