AusTexMurf

I have hydraulic rim brakes on one machine. Hate them. Worst of all worlds.
Heavy, complicated, noisy, too much force on the wheel.

tjspiel

I think it would be great if more bike shops carried bikes that have the features you describe. Do I think all commuting/utility bikes should come with chain cases and dynamos, - even road bikes and single speeds? Definitely not.

I'm a subscriber to our local bike share system and I love it. It's great if I want to get from one part of downtown to another and don't want to worry about locking my own bike up someplace. I think the bikes are decently equipped for their intended purpose. However I have no desire to own a bike like that nor ride one for anything other than a short trip.

Since you used a car analogy, I'll give you another. People drive all kinds of vehicles from pickups to sports cars to minivans. Some chose a vehicle based on what's most practical. Others might be willing to give up some convenience features in exchange for something they see as more fun to drive. Others still may prefer to elect to do without certain conveniences to save money.

I live in a city too but I prefer sportier bikes. My commute is 6 miles but I like to take the long way home once in awhile. Maybe go 10, 15, or 20 miles. Sometimes I do group rides right after work which might be as long as 40. A Breezer style bike isn't a good choice for me.

AusTexMurf

In wind like that, I want drops.

spare_wheel

I agree that they are not mutually exclusive in dense european cities (or NYC and SF). Most of my trips, however, segregate into two categories: less than 1.5 km (walkable) or 5-35 km. And I happen to live in the USAnian metro area with perhaps the strictest urban growth boundary in the USA.

I-Like-To-Bike

I don't believe a credible random survey of all U.S. bike commuters would generate a higher commute distance average than any of the self selecting surveys in question. The self selecting surveys all cater to bicycling enthusiasts who are also computer savvy. They all are designed to ignore those who are not handy with the Internet or are not members of bicycling organizations. Obviously poor cyclists and the DUI types are not part of the sample; also obvious is the preference of many BF poster to make pretend that these bicyclists don't exist and/or are not worthy of the title as a "Bicycle Commuter"

As an aside, the Riley Geary survey you cited is so detailed that only an enthusiast would bother to complete it. The results also are indicative of the bias towards "enthusiasts." Just like at the numbers of those who use road bikes or have tried racing. There are lots more indications of the self selection bias but it is too dang long to list them at one sitting.

GregTR

I'm not disagreeing with you on any of it. But I'm also claiming that someone who'd be the target market for a bike like the Breezer is a bike "enthusiast" at some level or somebody with large amounts of disposable income. I don't care where you live, a bicycle that costs close to $1,000 is a want not a need. I am also aware that the vast amount of your average commuter will not be rolling on a carbon frame to and from work and is far more likely to be riding a Huffy.

The bottom line IMHO is:
1) Average commute distances in the US are no different than they are in Europe
2) The Breezer is a niche bike that may or may not gather enough attention to be a viable market participant
3) Breezer like bikes are great for bike share programs that tailor for the lowest common denominator
4) Most people with enough money to buy a Breezer will buy something else
5) Most people who'd be well suited by the Breezer are almost equally well suited by any bike for the fraction of the cost and are probably riding something else

mconlonx

Because they have another Bikeshare choice of what kind of bike to use...? Meaning, people are being given no choice, you'll use the bike as available no matter what the drivetrain. Or we could talk about the preceding Smartbike program: no enclosed chaincase, no dyno-hub...

But hey, if this is what spurs people to adopt cycling amenities like dyno-driven lights, IGHs, and enclosed chain cases, that would be awesome. I tell you, right now though, at the retail level, interest in such bikes as expressed by sales is very, very low.

mconlonx

Sealed chaincase w/ oil bath, FTW.

neil

I don't think it's so much that people don't want these things, it's that the industry in North America is geared towards "basic bike + accessories." The industry in Europe gears their bikes to complete packages. Even things which I find most commuters ultimately use are not generally included in a bike purchase: water bottle holders, fenders, racks, and battery-powered lights. Not even when you buy a bike marketed as a "commuter." This is good business in the current environment, since it lowers the up front cost of the bike, increasing those sales, and also increases ongoing revenue from accessory sales.

IGH and Dynohubs in particular are expensive to buy on their own, and require a lot of skilled work to install, so it's much more cost prohibitive to buy these as accessories than other common items.

This is largely a feature of an enthusiast-oriented bike market. Enthusiasts who want a dynohub don't just want any dynohub. They want the SON dynohub. Except the ones who prefer Shimano. So they won't buy a bike where they're already paying to have some other dyno installed since they're going to change it out anyway. Same for every other accessory. The fact that bikes even come with saddles is a bit surprising, now that I think about it.

As more consumers enter the market looking to just pick up the complete package and run with it, we'll see more options. Bike shops are starting to offer more complete package bikes - though I've noticed most of these are still targeted at women - but there's a lot of momentum to the current industry structure, and it'll take the current bike boom continuing for a long while yet before it's the norm.

mconlonx

I work in a Trek shop. Trek's a great example. They own Diamant bikes in Germany. If you stroll through the Diamant website, you'll see all kinds of commuter bikes with the amenities people here claim everyone should love.

I'm not 100% sure, but Trek's easy-to-sell Allant bikes (fenders, racks, kickstands on the standard bike), look very much like re-badged Diamant models. They have some commuting accessories installed, but most notably do not have IGH, chaincase/-guard, or dynohub.

Not only is the Allant still in the lineup, but they've expanded the line to a more affordable 7sp (derailleur) option, still with fenders and kickstand, but no racks.

What models have been killed off by Trek recently because they did not sell enough? Soho -- IGH, chainguard; Belleville -- IGH, chainguard, dynohub w/ front and rear lighting, racks, fenders.

Breezer has always been an innovator and outlier. But even they feel the truth and have gone back to making mtn and sporty road bikes to supplement, maybe even support their commuter bike line.

Any time you hear, "Well, people just need to be educated about how awesome this is." the idea is doomed to failure. Getting people used to the idea without being given a choice, herding people in the right direction unconsciously like with the Bikeshare bikes will work. Eventually. But don't expect industry to offer much of what people here clamor for until the general public starts demanding it with their wallets...

BezO

Though I occasionally forget to stuff my pant leg, I'd stay away from a full chain enclosure for the bulkiness alone. One of those circular chain guards would suffice. I really just need to remember to stuff my pant leg.

I don't think it ever gets dark enough for me to need a light during my commute, but I get off at 4:30.

Count me in for the IGH. I'm dying for one. I'm on a single speed at the moment. Next bike is definitely 8-12 gear IH.

I tend to drive on rain/snow days because I don't have fenders. I opted for the widest tires I could fit instead (700x35c). Considering it rains/snows much less than it doesn't, I'm torn on fenders. I'd love to have them when I need them. I'd hate the extra weight on those other days. And I can't imagine installing/removing fenders that often.

1 out of 4

My ideal bike is a steel track-like frame (which is what I have), but stretched out just enough to fit 700x40c tires, with 12-gear IH & drum brakes. Aesthetically, I like lugs & quill stems. As much as I want fenders, an IGH all but assures I won't have them on the next bike. The closest complete I've seen is the Kilo WT (no lugs or quill stem) and the Pashley Gov'nor ($$$, only 3spd and long). One day I'll build this bike up.

Commodus

It's always seemed very strange to me that bicycles are sold without features that nobody would go without on a car. You can go down and buy a Porsche for example, a very high performance vehicle, but it still has lights, fenders, a bit of luggage space, etc. Nobody turns their nose up and says 'well I want to go fast, give me that open-wheeled race car over there.' Randonneurs regularly complete rides far more difficult than any commuter could ever face, and do it with dynamo lights, fenders, and a little rack. In fact my own rando bike makes a perfect commuter.

The idea that you need to ride a 'race' bike for commuting if your goal is speed is not really warranted in my opinion. You can build a very fast, fairly light, completely practical commuter with all of these common sense features and not lose any measurable speed. I ride my 30km commute every day on a wide range of bicycles, including my race bike and a 30+ lb. touring bike and the time it takes is virtually identical. Getting lucky and catching a green light makes many times more difference than the more than 13lbs of difference between the bikes. And yes, I have lots of hills on the way.

I have no opinion regarding IGHs, mind you. I think they're neat, but I've never owned one. And I do like drop bars for the wind.

CharlieFree

Fenders weigh virtually nothing. You would not notice any weight difference. And are great to have for an unexpected storm or puddle.

Steely Dan

how are IGHs and fenders incompatible?

my winter beast has both an alfine 8 IGH and planet bike cascadia full fenders.

IGHs are so well-suited for riding in inclement weather that combining them with fenders is a natural fit.

GeraldF

How much does the Breezer weigh? Also, there appear to be multiple models of Breezer. It's hard to distinguish why the prices range so much. Can anyone break down the differences in layman's terms?

In particular, I'm curious about the following models:

$1099 Uptown
$849 Uptown 8

Why such a big price difference!?

Here's a link to all the different Breezers: https://www.breezerbikes.com/bikes/transportation

Thanks!

I-Like-To-Bike

I agree with everything you wrote.
I'd add wouldn't it be wonderful if Walmart would contract with its suppliers for some reasonably priced English 3 speed clones (with no suspension geegaws) and offer it at a price a third or half of the Breezer? Really give the LBS apologists and Walmart bashers something to curse as not being suitable for a Real™ Bicycle Commuter.

Steely Dan

cars are propelled by engines. bicycles are propelled by the rider. that's a significant difference between the world of cars and bikes.

maximum car speed are also highly regulated, if it were possible for a person to legally drive an open wheel formula 1 race car 250+ mph to work everyday, i GUARANTEE you that there would be many speed freaks out there who would do so, however impractical it might seem.

for bicycles, the only speed limit is how fast you can make the thing move. with the same energy input, a 15 pound carbon wonder toy will move faster than a 40 pound dutch beast.

speed is highly addictive. (but not always practical)

BezO

I'm sure you're right. I've never held a set without a bike attached.

I'm referring to installing/removing them.

Sixty Fiver

The Uptown uses the more expensive NuVinci (continuously variable) hub, while the Uptown 8 uses a Shimano Nexus 8 hub which costs considerably less.

With a Brooks saddle, fenders, chaincase, dyno lighting, and rack my wife's Breezer curbs out in the low to mid 40's while the Peugeot curbs out in the high 20's with a Brooks saddle, rack, fenders, and dyno lighting.

From a riding standpoint the Breezer is a very nice bicycle and I have ridden it a good deal, I have not found that it slows me down by any significant degree although it is best suited for moderate cruising speeds. My daughter has also used it and thinks it is an awesome bike.

In this city there has been a huge increase in ridership and we have a very nice balance between genders and the bikes that are selling like the proverbial hotcakes are not drop bar road bikes but rather, European styled city bikes of which the Breezer is just one of the best examples.

From a market perspective mountain bike and road bike sales have been pretty flat for a long time while commuter oriented bicycles have seen significant increases as have sales of bicycles equipped with internal gear hubs, fenders, and lighting.

Most people do not ride that far when they commute... for these kinds of trips these types of bicycles are very suitable.

Steely Dan

the fenders on my bike don't interfere at all with the installation/removal of my rear wheel IGH. my bike has vertical drop-outs with an EBB for chain tension.

Commodus

wow you really missed the point of my post. like, really, thoroughly.

BezO

Ahhh. My current bike has track-ends, so I was thinking of those and forward facing dropouts. I hadn't even though about vertical dropouts.

spare_wheel

I am a bit shocked that anyone would believe this.

USA
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/2010cpr/execsum.htm
https://pubsindex.trb.org/view.aspx?id=578182
Driving - ~20.3 km one way.
Cycling - ~16 km one way

Netherlands
https://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/6114E...0/pb02e105.pdf
Driving - ~10.5 km one way (probably less due to inclusion of multiple trips)
Cycling - ~2 km one way (probably less due to inclusion of multiple trips)

Ferrous Bueller

I'm embarrassed to say that I clicked on those links. (A North American mail-in survey from 1997?!?)
Though many ride intercity commutes, I'd agree that the Dutch typically commute shorter distances within their compact cities.
It would be nice if someone here had some data to show it.

GeraldF

Thanks for all your input on the Breezer. A couple more questions, before I go out and buy a Breezer.

1) Which model does your wife have?

2) Please pardon my ignorance, but you lost me with the following statement: "my wife's Breezer curbs out in the low to mid 40's while the Peugeot curbs out in the high 20's." What do the 40's and 20's refer to? I'm sure not knowing will deem me an idiot in the eyes of some, but I really don't care what others think.

3) I've never owned an IGH bike. Is the more expensive Nuvinci hub worth the extra $250?

4) Theft concerns: Are the wheels easy to steal? Are they a hot item among bike thieves? I lock up in downtown DC for several hours at a time.

Thanks again!