iketurner443

my first set of hand-built rims lasted 7 years. who knows where that guy went to though. SInce then, I will have had 3 rear wheels built in 3 years. Today another spoke popped and I am fed up with it. I will buy one more rear wheel, if it fails, I will sledge hammer this bike into oblivion. The current POS wheel is a shimano ultegra 36 spoke hub with mavic open rim (i think). I did notice the spokes break when I am climbing, out of the saddle, rocking the handle bars back and forth. what is the most spokes I can get in a hub....cause 36 is not cutting it. I saw a place called Velocity has a 40 spoke hub.......watched a youtube video about them. If someone had a 90 spoke hub I would buy it.

cyccommute 

Use more and better spokes. A 36 spoke wheel with 2.3/1.8/2.0mm spokes carries my weight and everything I need for weeks of bicycle travel (somewhere around 300 lbs) for tens of thousands of miles without issue.

indyfabz

See above. I tour as well. Also around 300 lbs. with body, bike and gear. Quality 36H rims with quality spokes built well should be fine. In fact, my current wheel build was suggested by Cycco. I have been riding them for nearly two years. The front wheel needed very minor truing shortly after break in. Other than that, they have not been worked on, even after more than 1,000 miles of loaded touring (some on unpaved roads), not to mention other mileage.

iketurner443

2.3/1.8/2.0mm

what does that mean

cyccommute 

That's the diameter of the spoke. It has a 2.3mm head, narrows down to a 1.8mm middle section and, finally, has a 2.0mm end where the threads are. OEM (Original Equipment, Manufacturer) wheels usually come with 2.0mm that are the same diameter along the entire length...often called a "straight gauge spoke". Double butted spokes will have be 2.0/1.8/2.0mm. The thinner middle section actually gives an increase in strength because it is elastic and can stretch some. A straight gauge spoke will transfer the stress from the end to the head without as much elasticity and is there for more prone to breaking.

The link I provided discusses what the 2.3mm head gives you over a double butted spoke. It greatly increases the fatigue limit on the bend and makes the spoke much more durable, especially for heavy loads.

Sorry about this but I'm going to go very nerdy on you. Pillar Spokes have charts that show the strength of various spokes based on the gauge and butting. The chart below shows the breaking point of straight gauge spokes (the P14 is a 14 gauge spoke which is 2.0mm in diameter)

Image 5-11-18 at 1.41 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

You can see that the spoke breaks at 270 kgf. The unit doesn't matter. Just look at the magnitude. The next chart shows a double butted spoke that is 2.0/1.8/2.0mm (14/15/14 gauge)

Image 5-11-18 at 1.44 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

The double butted spoke breaks at a higher force (about 300 kgf) which translates to a more durable spoke. It's 11% stronger. A triple butted spoke...in the case of Pillars, they are 2.2/1.8/2.0mm (13/15/14 gauge)...breaks at an even higher force as seen below

Image 5-11-18 at 1.43 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

The "2018" is the one I'm talking about and you can see that it breaks at about 340kgf. That's a 25% increase in strength over the straight spoke. Pillar makes a quad butted spoke that has a 2.5mm head, a 2.3mm bend, a 1.8mm middle section, and a 2.0mm end. I don't have the graphic for it but you can find it here (Homework for ya). The breaking force needed is whopping 410 kgf. That's a strength increase of 51%.

The only problem with Pillars is that they are hard to find. BDop Cycling carries the triple butted ones. I haven't been able to find a source for the quads. DT Swiss makes the Alpine III which any bike shop should be able to order through Quality Bicycle Products (QBP). They are 2.3/1.8/2.0mm spokes and a little weaker than the Pillar Quads. I've seen calculations that say the Alpines are 48% stronger than 2.0mm straight gauge spokes. That's nothing to sneeze at.

iketurner443

my challenge is to find someone to build it. I am 0-for-3. I have spent lots of money on junk. my next move might be just to have Velocity build a 40 spoke.

cyccommute 

Your problems are likely related to the spokes used. Not many builders even know about triple butted spokes and those that do are hesitant to use them...for whatever reason.

I solved the same problem by learning how to build my own. I can build them the way that I want with the equipment I want. Building takes some time to learn but it’s not really all that hard. The best way to learn is to get an old wheel, take it apart, lace it up, tension it and repeat. Do the lacing several times before you put any tension on it. To paraphrase the old saw about when it is best to plant a tree, the best time to learn was 10 years ago or today.

cyclist2000

There are wheels that have 40 or 48 spokes.

Chad991

Honestly, I was hoping to see a solid machined rim/wheel....that would be pretty cool, heavy I imagine, but cool

Chad991

ok, I wont ride one runway then.....killjoy🤪

brawlo

How heavy are you? A poorly built wheel is a poorly built wheel, no matter how many spokes you have in it. Do you get those wheels checked after you've put about 100 miles on them? Those first miles are where everything beds itself in and if you tune it up thereafter, you should realistically see a good service life from your wheels.

Also, just how much do you rock back and forth when you do? Rocking is energy sapping and you should try and keep the bike as stable vertically as possible and not rock it back and forth. Compounding this, side loading the wheels while leaned over is about the most destructive force you can apply to a spoked wheel (aside from big kerb and pot hole hits), and being a clyde, means that you may be severely reducing the service life of the wheel by doing so

iketurner443

I'm 250lbs

rocking back and forth....not too much....but maybe I'm wrong.

I may of found a wheel builder...will keep you posted

brawlo

At 250lb a 32 spoke wheel will be more than strong enough. While there are fans of the open pro rims I have had them and dislike them massively. I just don't consider them a good choice for a heavy rider. IMO a higher profile ~30mm rim gives way more strength without too much of a weight penalty. Also wider rims allows for wider tyres which will give better cushioning and should help towards a better life span.

Seeing as you've been plagued with troubles, give your spokes a squeeze after the new build and familiarise yourself with how tight they feel. Then periodically check them again and you should find any issues early and hopefully before they lead to bigger issues

cyccommute 

You are incorrect. Rocking from side-to-side out of saddle isn’t energy sapping. Perhaps just riding down the road wobbling from side-to-side is energy sapping but out of the saddle riding, it isn’t. Nor is side loading of a wheel particularly hard on the wheel. Bicycle wheels are meant to lean into turns and does it thousands of times over the life of the wheel. Bicycles aren’t meant to just be ridden in a straight line.

I disagree that just a regular 32 spoke wheel is strong enough. Additionally, rims have very little to do with the strength of the wheel. The spokes do all the heavy lifting. Building the spokes I suggested above would make for strong 32 spoke wheel but just using straight or even double butted spokes aren’t enough. But just going to a strong rim does nothing for wheel strength.

rlmalisz

As I have done (and suggested in this topic), consider having a rear wheel built with a tandem rim. I'm "down" to 240, but was riding this configuration when I was 300 and never broke a spoke. It's a bit more mass (and rotational mass), but I have other places I could stand to reduce mass. Works with my stock brakes, hub. Only concession I had to make was to go to long-stemmed tubes.

--Richard

brawlo

Seems that you don’t really understand the way forces work on things, especially wheels so don’t go throwing a heap of misinformation in here. I’ll agree with you on the butted spokes, but that’s about it

hammond9705

I have 5800 miles on a rear wheel that was built by Colorado Cyclist in Feb 2015. It’s Ultegra Hub with 36 hole Open Pro rim. It’s still going strong with no broken spokes and I weigh more then you. In fact it lasted longer then my crankset that broke a couple weeks ago that was new at the same time. I’ve had wheels built by them before and never had problems with those either

I would give them a call and talk through your problems. I found the original order and at the time it was $275

cyccommute 

I could say exactly the same of your post. Show me how a stronger rim makes for a stronger wheel. I regularly use the lightest rims I can and have very few issues with rims. I also break very few spokes because I use strong spokes. If rims make for a stronger wheel, why are they replaceable? Rims seldom break and even when they do, they don't spell the death of the wheel. But break several spokes and the wheel is well on its way to being useless.

Show me how you can corner without leaning over and, while you are at it, show me how cornering puts enough stress on the spokes to cause them to break. Do you suggest that iketurner443 and all us Clydes do square corners and stay rigidly upright when we do so? That's not going to happen nor is it necessary.

brawlo

Man you're hard work! By your own logic and using my own anecdotal evidence, your strong spokes really aren't all that. I've never used triple butted spokes, only ever used straight gauge, double butted and aero CXrays. The ONLY spoke I've ever broken in tens of thousands of miles of road, track and MTB riding was a fatigued double butted spoke that I reused in a rim replacement to get me through a couple of weeks to when we could get new spokes. That's one sub standard spoke vs your few strong spokes.

Try this then, if that doesn't help you to understand, then Wheel stiffness

cyccommute 

You can bang your head all you want. The article you linked to doesn’t say what you think it says.

Read the section on why stiff carbon rims are likely to rub brakes and the solution. Hint: It’s spokes. It’s always spokes.

My own anecdotal experience says that stronger spokes make for a more durable wheel. And it’s my turn to suggest an article. Look at the one I linked to in post 2. Ric Hjertberg has a lot of experience with spokes. He started Wheelsmith.

brawlo

Dude! I'm not arguing your spokes recommendation......I actually agreed with you on those.

I linked the article to TRY and explain lateral forces and where they come from and rim stiffness. It's all in there, and all you come back with is spokes??.....

Maybe this one will help since you like Ric's work Extreme side forces otherwise I'm out

cyccommute 

And the article you linked to doesn't explain lateral forces in the way that you think it does. Nor does it explain rim stiffness in the way that you this it does. Nor does Hjertberg's article explain lateral stiffness in the way you think it does. Both articles (and the one I linked to) look at wheel stiffness in light of spoke stiffness. Going to a "stronger rim" doesn't make the wheel better able to resist lateral forces.

Hjertberg's article on extreme side forces is all about how the spokes resist (or don't) the lateral forces. The Slowtwitch article you linked to says pretty much the same. Kopecky goes into why a carbon rim that is extremely stiff compared to any aluminum rim is likely to cause brake rub when partnered with a thin spoke. The rim overpowers the spoke and allows the rim to move as a whole. The solution is, of course, to use stronger, stiffer spokes...not a stiffer rim. Which goes back to what I said before. A stronger wheel starts with stronger spokes. There may not be a down side to using a stiffer rim as long as you use stronger spokes. But the spokes will do most of the job without having to resort to a wider or deeper rim. Without considering the spokes in the first place, all that is added is weight, not strength.

brawlo

Man, you’re on a different page of a different book in a totally different library

cyccommute 

From you? Yes. From the rest of the world? No.