ZHVelo

As in title, should they?

I did a 60s on 60s off one and that just felt too easy, did a 30s on 15s off one and while that felt harder, I was never really out of breath, never really felt like I had to really push myself.

Sure, my legs felt it, toward the end they felt tired, and today I got a little bit of DOMS, but perceived exhaustion - just wasn't there. So is this just a case of my legs needing more strengthening, or given the amount of rest involved in the session, they just don't feel that tough?

Compare that to over/under threshold training and that felt harder and incidentally, Strava's relative effort measure also was significant higher when I did those compared to trying VO2 max sessions now.

Thanks!

atwl77

Depends, could be any number of factors, like:

1) what is the power target based off? FTP x 1.4? Something else? The target number could be too low, especially if you didn't do the fitness test hard enough, or if you have particularly strong anaerobic capacity in which case you may have to do higher than what you are doing.

2) how many reps? The Sufferfest's 60-on-60-off version of this interval is called Revolver, and it has you doing 16 reps at 100rpm cadence (with a sneaky 70s interval in the middle). The first half dozen or so don't feel like much, but the last few can be a pain to complete.

ZHVelo

1) Target is 118% - 125% of FTP, so already going into zone 6, not just pure zone 5. Though I ended up going higher than that, actually, the average of the last set of the 60-60 session was 131%.

2) The 60-60 session was 3 times 4 reps of 60 on 60 off, so 12 minutes on in total. The 30 on 15 off was 3 times 12 reps of that, so 18 minutes on, 9 minutes off (3 minute recovery after sets 1 and 2 for both workouts). Cadence on the latter was ca. 90 on the on parts. Which for me is highish, I would normally be around 80 (I increased that from ca. 70 quite quickly to 80, but it's more or less flat there now, finding it hard to increase it to 90 as my normal cadence).

When I compare them to going for a PR on my local hills, there at the top I am really out of breath, definitely very hard to talk, body hurts, and if I time it well, I am more or less blowing up just as I crest the top. If I go for those same metrics to gauge perceived exhaustion on the VO2 max sessions, other than the legs simply struggling a bit to push that hard, the perception is far easier, no out of breath, easy to talk generally don't feel exhausted.

atwl77

Try doing 60-60 at 130% FTP, no more, no less. 5-6 mins warm up, then 16 sets of 60s at 130% FTP with 60s recovery at 50% FTP, ending with 5-6mins warm down. That's about 42mins workout, see if that works better.

When you're going for a PR, your effort is consistently hard all the way up to the peak. When doing intervals you are given time to recover in between with the goal being twofold - to train your body to sustain these efforts, and to train your body to recover quickly from them - so the efforts will feel different.

ZHVelo

I will try that next week then. Thank you for the input, that makes a lot of sense!

Lemond1985

I love the simplicity of RAAM champ Lon Haldeman's system. Do one hour a week, at above 90% effort (if you can still talk, you're not at 90% yet).

I don't have a PM or HRM, so I do this instead, and am probably unsuccessful most weeks at achieving the full 60 minutes, but it's always my goal.

ZHVelo

I assume he means 90% of max HR not of LTHR?

Carbonfiberboy 

Something's off. IMO&E it's the same thing that one does at the gym: if your last rep isn't just barely possible, or maybe you fail it, you're not lifting heavy enough. Doing 3 X 3' X 1.5', if you're not just barely able to do the last 3' rep easily, you're not going anything like hard enough. Similarly, if you can do the last rep of 6 X 1' X 1' no problem, you're should be going harder, same power each rep. It's interesting to wear a pulse oximeter when doing 3 X 3s. You want to see your oxygenation drop by the end of the 2nd and 3rd intervals. Elites have been shown to take it all the way down to 93%. I was never strong enough to put that big a load on my aerobic system, but I'll take the study authors' word for it. In any case, that big load is the purpose of VO2max intervals. You're supposed to reach your max or exceed your previous max.

My guess is that what you're using for FTP is too low for the formulas you're using. I say, ignore your FTP and the formulas and find how much power you can put down for these hard intervals by experience. If you can do them, next set more power until you can't, then back off a hair.

If someone thinks I'm all wrong about this, post, but I get good results doing it this way and as I say . . .

rubiksoval

That's not a very effective workout.

You should probably be doing at least 3 minutes repetitions, preferably 4-6 minutes at 110-120% (start lower, finish higher, or build up to higher if needed).

If you have WKO4, there's a good chart that can tell you how many minutes you spent at 85-90-95-100% vo2 max. It typically takes about 2.5 minutes on the early ones to get into zone. As an example, I may do 4-5 reps of 4 minutes with 3 min recoveries and get about 8 minutes at 95% vo2 max.

For me, the 1st and 2nd one are tolerable, the 3rd one takes a good bit of concentration, and the 4th (and fifth if a really good day) requires sheer will power to complete. So yes, they're very tough.

This is a nice article if you want two basic workouts:

1: The goal is to do seven 3-minute hard pushes at VO2 Max power. Rest at least 3 minutes between each. Your job is to hold your watts over 118% for each one, and for the entire 3 minutes! So don't start your interval on a section of road that will include a downhill. The rest period is 56-75% watts. Afterward, ride at 75-85% of FTP in your tempo zone for at least 45 minutes and include some fast pedaling bursts (about 30 seconds long) every 5 minutes.

2: Begin your Vo2 efforts with 6x5 minutes with watts at 113-118%, doing your best to hold this steady for the entire effort. Do all six and add a seventh on if your watts are still within 5% of your third interval. So if your third interval average is at 110%, then stop doing the intervals when you can’t complete two consecutive intervals at a minimum of 105%. Take 5 minutes recovery between each at 56-75% of FTP.

https://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com...sive-plan.html

ZHVelo

Those are some very long workouts, I will have to read the article.

How does it know your VO2 max without taking any measurements? I am going purely of power zones.

ZHVelo

Skimmed over it - that is super intense! The Saturday ride, am I misinterpreting it or what is going, it is basically 4 hours with really hard efforts included.

WU: 15 (Total = 15)
Intervals: At least 5 of 30 seconds + 3 minutes + 5 minutes rest = 5*8.5 = 42.5 (Total = 57.5)
Endurance: 45 minutes (Total = 1hr42.5)
Thresholds: 4*12 minutes + 5 minutes rest = 68 minutes (Total = 2hr50.5)
Sweet Spot: 45 minutes (Total = 3hr35.5)
CD: 5 minutes (Total = 3hr40.5)

And that is without the MS which I don't understand and minimal rests and minimum of reps (intervals are suggested 5-8 times). I would be dead after this, never mind another long ride on Sunday, especially considering the Sunday ride also includes Threshold and Sweet Spot stuff.

That's crazy! Anyway, I cannot do it, I ride with my wife on Saturdays, at best I can do some cadence work here or sprints, something where I just don't race ahead, maybe a couple efforts if we take a route with a hill (I am pushing her to practice more uphill on her own so we can do more hilly rides together).

But for June I will try this, Monday off, Tuesday & Wednesday VO2 max, Thursday recovery, Friday Endurance, Saturday with the wife and Sunday I can alternate between the suggested Saturday or Sunday workout. That should be somewhat comparable to my April work, where I did Threshold work during the week and similar weekend (though the Sunday ride was a lot more just endurance, with some climbing, I was just getting used to going longer) and which led me to improve 15W in FTP between April and May.

rubiksoval

The Saturday ride???

I was talking about the vo2 max workouts. Actual vo2 max workouts, not random 30 seconds on and off workouts.

rubiksoval

They're not long workouts. You can ride out your front door, do the entire workout, and ride home again in 45-60 minutes.

They are actual vo2 max workouts, though.

My own vo2 max always roughly aligned to 5 minute power for me, give or take a few seconds or watts. Or, as it says, you can go by 112-120% FTP. Depending on your previous experience and your own personal dispositions, you may need to start at 110-112% for the first couple of reps (or even sessions). Personally, I started at 115% of FTP (and struggled) and was eventually working myself up to 128% ftp (which is what my vo2 max wattage equated to).

Again, I wasn't talking about a training plan or anything. I wouldn't do that training plan I posted. It's not even a plan, it's a block. Anyway, the point was to show where the two basic workouts came from, not to give you a training plan. I also don't think that plan is very feasible.

ZHVelo

The first one has a 45 minute tempo part after the intervals. No way you will be home 45-60 minutes later.

Fair enough, I will use the two VO2 max ones at any rate, because that fits my current style. I do 2 interval sessions after work during the week, and longer rides on the weekend. The other 3 days depending how I feel from nothing to recovery to some endurance with easy climbing.

ZHVelo

I tried the first of those today. It was very tough. My pulse peaked into the 170s, which is high for me (though the average was always in the low-mid 160s) and my legs were absolutely burning towards the end. Averaged 116% over the 7 intervals, with a range from 111% to 119%. I did not do the 45 minutes sweet spot after, I may do that in weeks 3 and 4 of the month, but tbh, already this hour with those 7 intervals feels like a challenge.

Interested to see how my legs are tomorrow. If they are too bad, next week I will do the two sessions 48 hours apart so I have Wednesday off.

burnthesheep

At best, for seasoned advanced athletes........these are probably best done two per week. Three perhaps, but quality over quantity. And certainly time off between tries.

The reason for the steady/tempo after is you've injected your body with a lot of energy stores for those efforts that has some remnants floating around you can use for some great SS/tempo work. That's not the scientific wording, but the just of the conversation on Fasttalk podcast about these workouts followed by a set like that.

Most plans utilize 120% target of ftp. That's a lot. Most also advocate for the 120% and fewer sets instead of lowering the intensity. Reason is, if you lower the intensity you change the metabolic system being used.

Think about it like sprints. You don't do more sets of all out sprints at a lot lower target. You do fewer at the best you can within that "energy" system of the body.

bbbean 

Yes. They should. If they aren't, you're likely using the wrong FTP level.

burnthesheep

Here ya go, 3min on off: spot where the wife came in to ruin my workout and I had to sit and wait for the second set
https://www.strava.com/activities/3268581999/analysis

That 325w is right on 120% for my HOUR ftp of around 270w. I test well for 20min, but not for hour.

rubiksoval

Wow. Nice job!

I don't do the tempos, either, nor the rest of that plan. I only posted it to show where the vo2 max workouts came from. The vo2 max workouts are the only two things I do from that. Good work on getting it done. Sometimes the mental aspect of that workout is just as tough as the physical.

I will say after doing 5 or so weeks of those two workouts I hit a massive 30 watt 20 minute pr along with prs from about 6 minutes onwards. It was a significant boost to my aerobic fitness.

ZHVelo

Wow, the consistency is amazing, my workout is all over the place! I guess you achieve that via the trainer?

And yea, at this stage I could not do 120% for 7 3 minute intervals. The legs don't have that in them. Maybe 5. So you suggest not doing it Tuesday/Wednesday but Thursday instead? Sounds a lot more reasonable to me, I guess if you are a pro you can do it two days in a row.

ZHVelo

Thanks a lot for suggesting these, they for sure feel much more intense, as you say also mentally, the last two sets were definitely about powering through!

burnthesheep

ERG mode on a Kickr in Zwift.

I do them outdoors if a shorter duration and higher intensity. My local neighborhood isn't conducive to repeatable intervals. Too many curves and dips in road and such. Takes too long to get out of town and back for country roads.

Typically I plan to do these twice a week when fresh if that's what I'm working on at the moment. By fresh, a day off the bike before. Or something light and easy.

I haven't actually done much VO2 recently with no racing. I've just done some KOM hunting to keep it stagnant and been grabbing the most aerobic volume possible. Then using it to try for TT bike personal bests.

I'll prime the "right engine" for a race once I have one again. VO2 is mostly genetic and then kind of "easy come easy go" for races. For me anyway. I'll "top it up" for a couple weeks to go race, then ease off of it and just maintain it.

For 30/30 and 60/60 I have a hill by the house perfect for it. About a minute up it at way way over my 60 second repeatable power, more like a one and done. So I can do either on that and roll down and repeat.