bruce19

Big Pharma and the AMA.

OBoile

Your link proves my point.

OBoile

Whether Chinese (or any other) people agree or not is irrelevant. Facts are.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/category/naturopathy/
Millions of Americans think vaccines are evil, man made global warming doesn't exist and even that the world is flat. This does not make these things true.

Better yet, just call your ND on his statement. Ask him what exactly "processed carbs" are? Does the process of cooking something make it "processed"? Is a processed glucose molecule different from an unprocessed one? What exactly is it in the "processing" process of these carbs that will later cause inflammation? What is it specifically about carbs that makes processing them bad, but herbal remedies in pill form are okay? How did, as posted above, a man eat McDonald's for 6 months and still had normal levels of blood pressure? I'm pretty sure that, whatever it means to process carbs, McDonald's has a lot of them.

OBoile

Probably because acupuncture is a sham and massage therapy has very questionable efficacy.

bruce19

Jesus OBoile you sound just like Trump. I'm done.

OBoile

I sound like Trump? Really? I'm not the one going against science.

bruce19

Really. Neither am I going against science if you actually look at the science. You, OTOH, know what you know because you know it.

Carbonfiberboy 

I'm a nutcase progressive, but I'm also fact-based. That's key to being progressive. Science is real. OBoile is mostly, maybe entirely correct. And Chinese medicine that works, survives clinical trials. Just because something is herbal doesn't mean it doesn't contain powerful pharmaceuticals. Many of the industrial world's pharmaceuticals were discovered in plants, then purified, then manufactured. Please post some RCT's showing that you are correct.

I'll never go near an ND. One almost killed my wife. Religion is not to be trusted. The only poor interactions with MDs I've had were with ones who were controlled by an HMO and couldn't practice ordinary medicine. There is for sure danger in corporatism. OTOH we're using computers, right? MD's are scientists. Sometimes scientists get it right, sometimes wrong, but at least they're proceeding according to facts, as best we know them.

Quacks are incredibly prolific in the field of nutrition, simply because it's so complicated that there are many things which are unknown, even to scientists. Unknown territory is where religion and snake-oil thrive.

A good example is that it's relatively well-known that a keto diet improves one's cholesterol numbers. However . . .there's zero evidence of that diet and numbers increasing longevity and some evidence of the opposite.

OBoile

Dude... you're the one promoting acupuncture. What's next? Homeopathy? Oh wait, this Naturopathy textbook supports that too.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathy-textbook/


I "know" what I know (more accurately, it would be I believe what I believe) because that is what the current evidence-based opinion of top scientists is.

And all this because I suggested you take his (unproven at best) assertion with a grain of salt.

bruce19

You make a lot of assumptions, Dude. I am not advocating anything. But, my experience is that there are alternative medical practices that work. If you do some research you will find scientific evidence that supports this. Ever heard of the Hippocratic Oath? The Father of Naturopathic Medicine is Hippocrates. Same guy. As for my ND friend..."he" is a she. And, she happens to be brilliant. But, that's not why I listen to her. I listen to her because she has saved me from some of my MDs who have put me on meds that almost killed me. Literally. I've had very bad experiences with a GP and a Cardiologist. But, I don't go around on BF telling people that traditional western medicine is bulll****. My experience may not be your experience and I understand that my answer may not be your experience.

redlude97

I'm not going to namecall, but can you provide this evidence?

bruce19

Just to try to put this in a different perspective. Hopefully to clarify my point of view. There is a thing called the "Placebo Effect." I'm sure you've heard of it. When I was running for public office in Mansfield, CT (home of UCONN) a guy named Irv Kirsch was a supporter of mine. Came to my house for dinner a couple times. He moved on to Harvard and did studies on the Placebo Effect. I mention him because if you Google him you will find a video of him on 60 Minutes. I will spare us all the details but Irv's studies concluded that people who were given a placebo had profound medical benefits when they thought they were being given drugs for their illnesses. How is that possible? It's not real medicine. It's not western medicine. It's about the power of something else. The mind? Spirit? I don't know but Science says it's real. So, I wouldn't be so quick to discount alternative approaches to medicine. My suggestion is to remain open and find what works for you. If you close yourself off to possibilities you close yourself off to possibilities.

bruce19

What evidence do you want? Not sure what you're asking. But, I think my reference to Placebo Effect would be one of them.

redlude97

That cutting down on "processed" carbs reduced inflammation resulting in your weightloss and reduced blood pressure

bruce19

Thank you. Let me look around. I have a ton of vids. And, I will ask my ND friend for info. Going there Saturday night for dinner. She has a show called Radio Naturopath on UCONN radio. She might have a show on that topic. I'll check.

bruce19

Here's one cite for foods that cause inflammation: https://www.arthritis.org/living-wit...ammation-7.php

Note: #6 refined carbs

And, the connection between high BP and inflammation: https://www.webmd.com/hypertension-h...essure-risks#1

wolfchild

Here is what it means.....Yogurt which is natural milk processed by lactic acid bacteria into a healthful food....and Dairy Queen Blizzard which is processed by the devil himself into a chemical cocktail of ingredients which aren't fit for human consumption....You decide which of these processed foods is better for long term health and wellbeing.

surak

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/l...iet-endurance/

Seattle Forrest

​​​​​​All of this.

When you go to the doctor, you get 5 or 10 rushed minutes, and some pills. For $300, although nobody actually pays that. When you go to a homeopath or whatever, the person spends more like an hour, they listen to you, they tell you that have just the thing. Now the thing they sell you is a placebo, but the placebo effect is real, and it's probably strengthened by the level of personal attention. Now that's not going to cure cancer or any other medical ailment, but it makes a lot of people feel better.

Seattle Forrest

"Alternative medicine" means treatments that actual science had found lacking. That's why they're alternative.

downtube42

For this rando season, I'm going to switch from mostly carb fueled to mostly fat fueled. Maybe I'll pork out, flame out, stroke out, clog my arteries, or have a good season. I'll be yet another experiment where n=1, thus statistically insignificant. For darn sure, nobody's mind in here is going to be changed.

Seattle Forrest

That's not fair.

Seattle Forrest

You're making the point that I think you're arguing against. Both of those foods are "processed." If you just go by the rule "don't eat processed foods" you can't have the healthy, protein rich yogurt. If you just go by "processed," then they're the same. So, clearly, there's more to this than whether some kind of food has been through some kind of process to prepare it.

When I was a kid, we had corn on the cob pretty often. My brother and I sat there shucking it. Didn't know it at the time, but we were processing our food.

That's what @O'Boile was getting at. I personally wouldn't have brought it up because there's already enough confusion in this thread, but it's a valid point. I think the TL;DR version is you should think a little instead of following rules from Pinterest.
​​​​​​

Carbonfiberboy 

Just wow. I can't believe that no one noticed that the "placebo" argument is silliness. When they do an RCT, one side gets the placebo, the other side gets the trial whatever that is. Then they usually switch sides and reverse the placebo and trial. So there's no placebo effect. Any placebo effect is going to be an n=1 or other completely unscientific situation, which we can discard hopefully without discussion. Really folks.

Then there's this silly business about sugar causing inflammation, Everyone knows that's true, right? So find me an isocaloric RCT that substantiates that hypothesis, OK? Kenyan runners have pure white sugar as 20% of calories and they seem to do just fine. My personal experience is that it's BS.

elcruxio

There's a lot to unpack so I'll need to do this in parts. Apparently 3 or 4 posts is the maximum allowed multiquote or my computer just isn't up to the task.

Well actual science does look into chinese medicine and most of it doesn't work. Some of it does to some extent but the reasons aren't exactly known. For example acupuncture does seem to have a greater effect than placebo and it is being studied why this may be.

Ah yes. Big Pharma. The evil boogieman that is keeping me alive and functional. It's a good thing my family gets the monthly corruption money to keep us silent to all their secrets.

Most likely they are being polite. They probably don't want to waste a good ride arguing with someone about naturopathy so going with the flow is the easiest way for them. Considering how militant some alternative medicine kooks can be, it could totally ruin riding with that group in the future. Also doctors in general seem to be a very polite bunch. At least the dozen I know well personally and the significantly higher group of acquaintances all seem to be this way, with some exceptions of course.

My wife is a MD, her whole family is MD's, her granpa was one of the biggest names in Finnish medical field in his day and through my wife I've the privilege of spending a lot of time with doctors some of whom are close friends. And I'll tell you that all the doctors I know are VEHEMENTLY against alternative medicine. At the least they think it's useless and on top of that it is a lot of times dangerous. Look at the antivax movement for example. People are starting do die because of preventable ilnesses for no good reason.

But with all that in mind, doctors don't generally disparage other people in public. It's one of the codes in our society that you just don't go on hateful rants against a group of people in public.