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Wrong Way Road Biking?

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Wrong Way Road Biking?

Old 02-12-19, 01:30 PM
  #51  
JoeyBike
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Originally Posted by tyrion
Yes. And if I come up against a cyclist riding with car flow, I give way.
Right on! It's really not that difficult for some people to go salmon under certain circumstances. Sure, sometimes it would be much more dangerous to bike against traffic, so I wouldn't do it. Other times it is easy, and a little awareness keeps everybody happy. Except a few rigid rule followers.
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Old 02-12-19, 01:33 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
In the USA, everyone involved moves to their right, just like any two-way street. It's natural. Same with walking down a narrow sidewalk. Unless of course one or both of the people involved are doing the Bird Box challenge.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/nxbd..._driving.0.jpg
Never heard of that one.

My standard procedure with salmon is to go very wide left, traffic permitting, and do it from a distance, such that even the drunkest guy smoking a cigarette with flipped up handlebars riding in cowboy boots, has plenty of time to react. Or rather "not react" and just stay on the path they were heading anyway, as there's no real guarantee a that a salmon has ever really seen you. He might be seeing two of you, or even three of you, or he / she may not see you at all.
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Old 02-12-19, 01:49 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Right on! It's really not that difficult for some people to go salmon under certain circumstances. Sure, sometimes it would be much more dangerous to bike against traffic, so I wouldn't do it. Other times it is easy, and a little awareness keeps everybody happy. Except a few rigid rule followers.
I mostly avoid going wrong way on city streets because I slow down for every cross street and driveway, so it's much slower overall, but in some cases it's safer, like on narrow country roads where I'd want to veer well off the road when trucks and RVs come by.
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Old 02-12-19, 01:53 PM
  #54  
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The one time I was actually hit by a car, it was a pickup truck pulling up to a stop sign. I was salmoning on the sidewalk. Visibility was obstructed by a rockery. I was already committed to a bunny-hop off the curb when the truck was already committed to his merge into traffic. He was looking out the left window where cars should be, not right where a wrongly placed salmon would be. I was 12 & made of rubber. The driver was scared he ran over a kid. Lesson learned...

Except for the next time when I was salmoning on the sidewalk on my skateboard (correct if I was a pedestrian) and that lady pulled out of the stripmall driveway in her Oldsmobile. I went over the hood & her car pitched up with my skateboard on edge. Again, I was fine. She was freaked. Lesson learned...

Except for that time when I was riding my mountain bike on the sidewalk in the direction of traffic and nearly T-boned a Suburban making a right turn into a gas station. I rode a round the fuel island cursing, swearing, gesturing & pointing at a very confused older gentleman who genuinly didn't understand why all the commotion. Lesson learned...

Except that time I cautiously pulled out of a store driveway with obstructed view and a kid on a bmx bike who obviously braked very hard, smashed into my front wheel. I apologized, he said: "Nope!" and rode off. That stuck with me. Lesson learned.

I witnessed a collision between a younger kid leaving a side street & a Ford Escort travelling in an arterial. Like me above, a salmon darting across a crosswalk. He got his bell rung be a car doing about the posted 25mph speed limit from what I could tell. He lost his shoes, bent his bike in the middle, & was still holding the hand grips when he stood up dazed by what happened. The driver was in shock. I stopped to offer help & gave the kid a large golf umbrella and a cycle lawyers business card for his very soggy walk home. It was raining so I let him finish with the cops and thunk on the matter.

The lesson that should've been learned in all cases is: "Be where drivers are looking." That's the reason for the laws being the way they are. Cyclists, skateboarders, Segways, roller skates, whatever...are too fast for road adjacent travel and the sightlines just don't exist for contra-flow. The decision window is too short.

All the traffic safety recommendations maximize sightlines, maximize decision windows, and place vulnerable users where they are likely to be seen.

When it comes to pedestrians, the roles are switched. They are indeed recommended contra-flow travel for their own decision making process. Their speed is slow, their path is protected. They are the ones with the sightlines, situational awareness and time for risk assessment.

I tried to explain this to a mountain biker at work, and even using sketches of geometry, real world math with distance, rate, time problems, and good ol' fashioned research about primary & peripheral vision he still refuses to acknowledge the dangers of salmoning or why he keeps "almost" getting hit. His risk assessment has more to do with "feeling better" & that I can never change.
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Old 02-12-19, 02:01 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by base2

I was salmoning on the sidewalk...

I was salmoning on the sidewalk on my skateboard...

I was riding my mountain bike on the sidewalk...
Yeah, salmoning AND on the sidewalk raises the bar substantially. Certainly doable but you better be wide awake to several scenarios and willing to yield early and often. The only time I do this is when the road is blocked by power company, movie, garbage, or other stationary or near stationary trucks. And driveway with an open gate or garage door is approached at walking speed and with great care. This is NOT a time saving mechanism, it's being too lazy to circle four blocks to do it right.
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Old 02-12-19, 02:33 PM
  #56  
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Salmoning on a sidewalk? a non-existent concept. Sidewalks are made to work in both directions. Users are supposed to be smart enough to use them safely.

Salmoning on the road, on the other hand, endangers people riding in the correct direction.

Hurt yourself, your decision. Don't make me decide between risking hurting myself and forcing you to risk hurting yourself. Don't salmon.
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Old 02-12-19, 02:53 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Salmoning on a sidewalk? a non-existent concept. Sidewalks are made to work in both directions. Users are supposed to be smart enough to use them safely.
Well, most of our neighborhood streets are one-way streets. So I consider salmoning on the sidewalk 1. Cycling the opposite direction than the road users on a one-way street, and 2. Riding on a sidewalk parallel to a 6-lane highway going against traffic on my side. Like around shopping malls, fast food joints, auto parts stores, Best Buys, etc., where cars are exiting and entering the highway across the sidewalk. HIGH ALERT on these conditions!

Salmoning on the road, on the other hand, endangers people riding in the correct direction.
It really depends. You can't make a blanket statement for every scenario in the world. A wise salmon picks and chooses the "safest" places to salmon!

Hurt yourself, your decision. Don't make me decide between risking hurting myself and forcing you to risk hurting yourself. Don't salmon.
I grant right of way to everything/everyone regardless of my direction. I won't be in your way and don't go salmon where there is likely to be an issue with oncoming cyclists. I have experienced the opposite with unwise salmon but it is so seldom even with a large population of salmon in my city. We are all on the same page for the most part, which make a BIG difference in how my scofflaw behavior is received as well as how I view others.
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Old 02-12-19, 02:58 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Salmoning on a sidewalk? a non-existent concept. Sidewalks are made to work in both directions. Users are supposed to be smart enough to use them safely.

Salmoning on the road, on the other hand, endangers people riding in the correct direction.

Hurt yourself, your decision. Don't make me decide between risking hurting myself and forcing you to risk hurting yourself. Don't salmon.
Salmoning in relation to direction of car travel. I could've said "contra-flow," but you would've said there are no delineated lanes of travel on the sidewalk...or some other non-sense. Smh...

I was talking a lifetime of experiences. From age 12, 14, onward onto age 40. Everyone is an idiot at age 12. Come on, man. I learned my lesson, so for the next one, the gas station, I was smart enough to be with the direction of car travel. That was even more dangerous as I had no warning a vehicle approached from behind, a lane away, & seperated by a row of parallel parked cars was going to cross my path. He had no visibility of me or the inclination to look.

Being "smart enough" to use them safely was more-or-less adjacent to my point.
A: The speed difference of wheeled "things" on sidewalks makes the street the safest place to be.
B: Be where drivers are looking.

Cars are not, & never will scan "off-roadway" for hazards. Riding the wrongway only exacerbates the problem, on road or off. Derp.
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Old 02-12-19, 03:14 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
A wise salmon picks and chooses the "safest" places to salmon!
But you Don't pick who else will be riding there at that time. You might Think you are a "wise" salmon, but if i am going the correct way and you are coming at me head on, no matter how "wise" you might think you are, one of us has to head into traffic to pass. Which is what i said. Unless you can fly at will or dematerialize, if you salmon, you are running the risk of coming head-on into another cyclist--one who is who is Not breaking the law.

We both understand this.

In your case, you would graciously give way--wonderful. But when you come here encouraging salmoning, or when you salmon and encourage it by example, you are potentially training people who not to ride---people who don't know how to ride in the first place,

I have encountered more than a few wrong-way cyclists, and so far None of them have pulled off the road and stopped to let me pass safely. You need to work harder on the "Right way to Wrong-Way" cycle program, or stop teaching others it is right to cycle the wrong way. ( ) (Don't take all this too seriously .... but think about it. You never know who will be coming the other way. I am sure most fo the wrong-way riders I have encountered didn't have a clue or had never met another cyclist head-on .... which means they thought it was perfectly safe, too ....)
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Old 02-12-19, 03:26 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
But you Don't pick who else will be riding there at that time. You might Think you are a "wise" salmon, but if i am going the correct way and you are coming at me head on, no matter how "wise" you might think you are, one of us has to head into traffic to pass.
I see and understand your point. However, the places I go contraflow do not constrain me to your line nor you to mine. I do not salmon down a bike lane next to a busy street for example. The streets I occasionally salmon have plenty of room for two bikes plus one car.

Just to repeat, I understand situations where a salmon can cause mayhem for other road users. I do not salmon in those places. If you saw me you would not be concerned. There are many streets in my city where I would not do it, and others where it is possible without bothering anyone, other than ruffling tender sensibilities of those easily offended by something they see that does not affect them whatsoever.
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Old 02-12-19, 07:34 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict
As a kid, I was taught to ride on the left side and whenever I see a car coming, I stop and pull over and wait til car passes.

If I rode on the right side, I would not be able to see car coming.

As a kid, your control skillz is not so good. You might not be so good to ride a stright line. You might all of sudden steer into the middle of the road.

I see it as a strategy for lightly travelled road ways...if rider lacks confidence. When a car is coming...rider can focus to ride straight line...when car passes...rider can relax. If forcing to ride on the right side, an inexpereinced cyclists would be under stress the entire time.
If you cannot control your bike you should stick to riding around the playground. Not to be rude, but to save lives.

I was able to rise a bike safely to school, to the local library, to local shops, in the first couple years of elementary school. I got a paper route around age 8 and delivered newspapers throughout several suburban neighborhoods, linked by larger roads, starting then. Not that I have any special skills (well, I am especially uncoordinated) but riding a bike is as easy as riding a bike. Little kids can ride up and down the street or in dead-ends or playgrounds until they are stable ... but the idea that a kid cannot ride a bike is simply not valid. Riding in a straight line is not hard ... and if you cannot ride in a straight line you have no business being on Any road except for riding up and down the street right in front of your house.

Teaching Wrong and Illegal behavior is Not a good idea. (Imagine if I said beginner drivers should drive into oncoming traffic so they could see oncoming cars ..... ) I have attended a few Children's Bike Training courses given by a a public-private consortium as part of a local bike race. These people---literally the pros of juvenile bike training---set up cones in a sort of autocross course to test turning and stopping ability, so they instructors could focus on where the kids needed help. At No time did they ever suggest riding illegally on the wrong side of the road as a safety measure---and these were, as i said, the children's bike safety professionals.

Teach the kids to ride a bike before putting them in traffic. if they cannot ride a bike, DON'"T PUT THEM IN TRAFFIC. I really would have thought that went without saying.

if a kid cannot steer his or her bike, he or she might try to pull over and steer into a car. He or she might simply fall over and get hit. If the kid cannot control his or her bike, Train the Child Properly.
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Old 02-13-19, 10:50 AM
  #62  
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Wrong Way Road Biking?
Originally Posted by Maelochs
…Teaching Wrong and Illegal behavior is Not a good idea. (Imagine if I said beginner drivers should drive into oncoming traffic so they could see oncoming cars ..... )

I have attended a few Children's Bike Training courses given by a a public-private consortium as part of a local bike race. These people---literally the pros of juvenile bike training--- At No time did they ever suggest riding illegally on the wrong side of the road as a safety measure---and these were, as i said, the children's bike safety professionals.
FYA, I recall this particular exchange:
Originally Posted by Robert C
As many of you know, I am a middle school teacher. As such, when bike to school day comes around, I get volunteered to be a “guide.”

There are two reasons that I dislike bike to school day. Firstly, I dislike the idea that biking to school should be an event that requires guides, support vehicles, and police *******. It reinforces the idea that cycling is little but an impractical, dangerous, stunt. Biking to school should just be something that students do; no fanfare, just do.

The second reason, and is nothing but personal preference; a preference for doing things right, is that I dislike how the students are trained to ride.

The students are told to ride, facing traffic, on the sidewalks, and in the gutter if no sidewalk is available. This is stated, and reinforced by the school police, who conduct the bicycle safety training
.

In all, I am no big fan of “bike to school day.”
Originally Posted by Maelochs
Either get serious about fighting the illegal and unsafe training, or refuse to participate.

I would never teach any unsafe or illegal practice to a group of children which I would only be teaching for one day, so that i wouldn't have time to explain that it was both illegal and unsafe.

Whatever you do is fine with me, of course ... your life, your choices .... but .... whatever.
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Old 02-13-19, 11:19 AM
  #63  
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That Maelochs guy comes across as a real prig. Not a fan.
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Old 02-13-19, 03:39 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
If you cannot control your bike you should stick to riding around the playground. Not to be rude, but to save lives.

I was able to rise a bike safely to school, to the local library, to local shops, in the first couple years of elementary school…Riding in a straight line is not hard ... and if you cannot ride in a straight line you have no business being on Any road except for riding up and down the street right in front of your house.

Teaching Wrong and Illegal behavior is Not a good idea...I have attended a few Children's Bike Training courses given by a a public-private consortium as part of a local bike race.

These people---literally the pros of juvenile bike training---set up cones in a sort of autocross course to test turning and stopping ability, so they instructors could focus on where the kids needed help. At No time did they ever suggest riding illegally on the wrong side of the road as a safety measure---and these were, as i said, the children's bike safety professionals.

Teach the kids to ride a bike before putting them in traffic. if they cannot ride a bike, DON'"T PUT THEM IN TRAFFIC. I really would have thought that went without saying.

Train the Child Properly.
Originally Posted by Maelochs
That Maelochs guy comes across as a real prig. Not a fan.
Just last week I posted
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
…I once started a now-closed thread:“Bike Forums Hall of Fame.”
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Whom do you consider to be among the Elder States(people), Gurus. Sages, Authorities…on Bike Forums (and their specialties), worthy of a Hall of Fame?
Originally Posted by CbadRider
These threads have a way of turning south pretty quickly. From past experience, for every positive comment about a member there is usually someone who wants to post a negative comment, and we just don't want to go there.

Thread closed.
I thought it would be nice to know, by popular acclaim, just who are the most savvy, knowledgeable, and reliable subscribers to Bike Forums.

After about 10 years here I have my preferences (and my own choices for the ones I consider “pills,” who are nonetheless fun to read).
So is @Maelochs a Hall-of-Famer, a pill, or a prig?

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 02-13-19 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 02-13-19, 05:33 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Just last week I postedSo is @Maelochs a Hall-of-Famer, a pill, or a prig?
Let's call him 'an acquired taste' ...
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Old 02-13-19, 05:43 PM
  #66  
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If this was a Foo thread, I would link the "Colonel Angus" skit from SNL at this juncture. But since it's not ... I won't.
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Old 02-13-19, 05:58 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Just last week I postedSo is @Maelochs a Hall-of-Famer, a pill, or a prig?
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Let's call him 'an acquired taste' ...
Originally Posted by Lemond1985
If this was a Foo thread, I would link the "Colonel Angus" skit from SNL at this juncture. But since it's not ... I won't.
Pretty subtle wisecrack, @Lemond1985and tasteless if I understand correctly.
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Old 02-13-19, 06:07 PM
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It was the funniest thing I ever saw Christopher Walken do, and that's really saying a lot.
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Old 02-14-19, 03:04 AM
  #69  
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Its annoying!

I understand why it happens though, most people want to go the shortest way between point A and B.
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Old 02-14-19, 03:54 AM
  #70  
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As mentioned earlier, cycling against the car traffic is allowed in many countries and cities. Even some of the narrow cobbled streets in Paris allow this, though, to be honest cobbles+rain=potential bike disaster.
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Old 02-14-19, 08:25 AM
  #71  
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Here in Gainesville Florida the laws for bicycles mirror vehicle laws. If there is a bike lane use it, otherwise stay to the right and traffic allows 3’. One street is marke cyclists may use a full lane (2 lanes), which even so gets shaky if you do not ride the middle of the lane. Still I see people on bikes (generally not regular cyclists/commuters) salmoning or riding without lights. The lights are the worst thing for me. Even on my bike, when there is early morning fog, I have damn near hit them because my light bounces off the fog, and often times they are wearing dark clothing.
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Old 04-13-19, 05:44 PM
  #72  
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I call salmon "DUI Cyclists" as in they havent been on a bike since they were kids in the 70s and their Moms told them to ride into traffic on the cul-de-sac.

The law in Oregon says bike with traffic.
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Old 04-13-19, 07:30 PM
  #73  
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On one section of our local highway, riding salmon I would feel as being much safer, since to flow with traffic means crossing numerous off ramps and on ramps and intersections, while the opposite side is practically free of them, and directly connects to a bike trail further down the highway without having to cross the highway with at speed traffic.
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Old 04-13-19, 07:42 PM
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I live in the USA: I really do not care for peoples excuses for endangering others on the rode. When we drive our cars or bicycles on the road in a predictable way there is less chance of a collision. Our roads are designed for driving on the right side. Any fool who drives on the left side against traffic is endangering other road users. Riding against traffic in England would have the same effect. Living in the USA I have herd plenty of excuses about why people ride against traffic. My favorite one is grandma told me to do it. Or some variation of that tripe. Between 1982 and 1991 I lived in a student town. I rode one of the first Specialized Stump Jumper models. A coed on a Honda Spree made a left out of a apartment complex. I was coming down hill with parked cars on my right and traffic to the left of me. She was ticketed and hauled off to the hospital. Her Honda was totaled. I had some plastic and paint that I picked off of my left pedal. She had also busted the right side mirror of an oncoming car. A couple years later a male student going down hill against traffic hit the two wheeled cart my children were in. He had facial and dental damage and wanted me to pay for his dental medical expenses. I do look ahead and when there is room and time steer clear by taking the lane. I didn't own a car during those years. A good friend of mine lost his wife. She was riding up hill on a well marked path and three students were racing down hill using both sides of the path. She died of a severed spine. It is obvious we can't legislate intelligence. People have to be willing to obey the law.
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Old 04-14-19, 10:24 AM
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Daniel4
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The only time I was salmoning was when I exited a park that I regularly use. Normally, I can't make a left turn to continue my ride on the road so I go up the sidewalk (west side, northbound).

This one time the sidewalk and part of the road was closed and all dug up. There were pilons on the road, so I rode up along the pilons. Then to my horror, I realized I was salmoning up the car lane. Luckily, there was enough space and time for me to pass the construction and get back onto the sidewalk before the oncoming traffic entered the pilons.

Last edited by Daniel4; 04-14-19 at 10:53 AM.
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