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Dura Ace 7400 brake pads?

Old 10-28-19, 02:53 PM
  #1  
rosefarts
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Dura Ace 7400 brake pads?

I'm cleaning up and getting road worthy a bike that's probably 1985 to 1987, full Dura Ace 7400.

I wanted to replace the brake pads and they're a different size than modern standard road brakes.

It's cheap enough to get all new pads and carriers for the calipers that will be the new standard size. I was going to do this until I realized that the carriers and pads all say Dura Ace.

I'd be fine if the pads didn't say it since that is a consumable. I don't want to change the carriers now though. Can I find replacement pads in this size?

Pics to show the old pads next to a modern one.


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Old 10-28-19, 08:13 PM
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Easiest to go to modern pads and carriers. Then save those old pads and carriers for whoever buys the bike from you in the future.
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Old 10-28-19, 09:50 PM
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Kool Stop says these will fit your holders:

Kool Stop International - High Performance Bicycle Brake Pads Since 1977

Last edited by Salamandrine; 10-29-19 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 10-28-19, 10:14 PM
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I don't believe that any modern Shimano pads will fit in those brake pad holders, and mine are newer than yours as they are blue-grey painted.

I just went through trying to replace the pads in my ~1992 7402 pad holders, and those were a no-go. I had to use bench-vise force to even remove the old pads, and the new replacements did not seem willing.
I gave up and fitted basic Jagwire pads with their basic steel holders, these work great on the finicky CTL-370 rim surfaces. I tried several different pads before the Jagwires, and all but the Jagwire pads would quickly glaze and squeal loudly on the CTL-370 anodized sidewalls.
Actually the Shimano pads didn't squeal at all, but hardly stopped the bike, either.
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Old 10-29-19, 12:01 PM
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You can get KS refills on the cheap -- I just bought four "dura" style pads for $14 on ebay.

But, man, the holders are expensive. Sometimes it's actually cheaper to buy used calipers that have holders rather than new holders.
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Old 10-29-19, 02:13 PM
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Why replace?
​​​​​​If they are aged file down the braking surface.
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Old 10-29-19, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by blamester
Why replace?
​​​​​​If they are aged file down the braking surface.
Rubber doesn't just age on the outside. These pads are not only old enough to drink, they're nearly old enough to be President.
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Old 10-29-19, 02:34 PM
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If I have a pair of climbing shoes in the garage for 2 years, sure, I'll wire brush them before heading out. 35 year pads though, I'm not sure.

FWIW, the bike was stored inside and rarely ridden according to my dad (a friend of his owned the bike). No bolts we seized. The seatpost wasn't stuck. Even the housing looked OK. It had a thick layer of dust and nicotine I've had to clean. Not even a crack on the seat (other than an obvious wreck).

I've gone ahead and ordered new modern pads on modern carriers. Some generic brand. If they act funny on the MA40's, I have a ton of road pads that will fit I can use.
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Old 10-29-19, 07:30 PM
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I'll ask here since folks are paying attention.
Is there any significant difference in the performance of these brakes when we install thinner, modern, Dura-style holders and pads? Of course the new pads improve performance, but engineering wise, would anyone back in the day replace stock the holders and pads with replacements that had less reach?
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Old 10-29-19, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Classtime
I'll ask here since folks are paying attention.
Is there any significant difference in the performance of these brakes when we install thinner, modern, Dura-style holders and pads? Of course the new pads improve performance, but engineering wise, would anyone back in the day replace stock the holders and pads with replacements that had less reach?
When compared to 25-35 year old pads that cannot be replaced with new, more supple and better gripping ones, then, yes, there is a significant difference. Back in the day this wasn't an issue- pads weren't 25-35 years old and replacements were readily available.

Not sure what you mean by less reach...the newer pads are thinner but seem to last a long time. All the rest is adjustment.
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Old 10-29-19, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Classtime
I'll ask here since folks are paying attention.
Is there any significant difference in the performance of these brakes when we install thinner, modern, Dura-style holders and pads? Of course the new pads improve performance, but engineering wise, would anyone back in the day replace stock the holders and pads with replacements that had less reach?
The reason brake pads got thinner was because they had to due to the mechanics of dual pivot brakes. There is no performance improvement. Kool stop compound is kool stop compound, whatever shape they mold it into. Dual pivot brakes have much greater alignment error than sidepulls. If thick pads were used, they'd end up hitting the tires as they wore down unless readjusted. In the old days, thick pads could be used because they would stay aligned with the rim even as they wore down nearly to the holder.

I would have been inclined to replace the pads only and use the original holders for these 7400 brakes, for that reason. Clearly this is a minority position these days. Changing pads happens much more often with modern brakes, and it is kind of annoying. They are however easier to replace than old school pads. Those often had to be unbolted from the caliper and the inserts removed with a vise.

WRT swapping in aftermarket brake pads - it was done sometimes but not often with high end brakes. Some people used those silly finned Mathauser super pads. Mostly they just squealed more if you did that.

Last edited by Salamandrine; 10-29-19 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 10-30-19, 06:38 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by Classtime
I'll ask here since folks are paying attention.
Is there any significant difference in the performance of these brakes when we install thinner, modern, Dura-style holders and pads? Of course the new pads improve performance, but engineering wise, would anyone back in the day replace stock the holders and pads with replacements that had less reach?
I have read comments with regard to thinner pads changing the leverage or whatever on older single pivot brakes, but they have been completely untrue in my experience. For example:


Those calipers with the thinner, modern holders and pads provide outstanding stopping power. Braking from the hoods with the original levers is easy.
I've had great results with other bikes in the past. It works.
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Old 10-30-19, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
When compared to 25-35 year old pads that cannot be replaced with new, more supple and better gripping ones, then, yes, there is a significant difference. Back in the day this wasn't an issue- pads weren't 25-35 years old and replacements were readily available.

Not sure what you mean by less reach...the newer pads are thinner but seem to last a long time. All the rest is adjustment.
The thinner pads result in the calipers swinging further in and "up" to reach the rims and less so directly opposing each other. My vintage brakes (Campy) have worked fine with Dura pads but I wonder/over think.
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Old 10-30-19, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BFisher
I have read comments with regard to thinner pads changing the leverage or whatever on older single pivot brakes, but they have been completely untrue in my experience. For example:
To be clear, that is not what I was saying at all. The pads do not change the leverage significantly. New pads will be fine on old brakes. The only thing is that they will not last as long.

The issue is where the pivots are on the calipers themselves. The ends of dual pivot calipers arc upward as they go in. Single pivots for all practical purposes do not. If you put thick pads on dual pivots, the contact point at the rim will creep upward as they wear out, eventually hitting the tire.

Center pull brakes also have this issue, to a lesser degree.
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Old 10-30-19, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts
If I have a pair of climbing shoes in the garage for 2 years, sure, I'll wire brush them before heading out. 35 year pads though, I'm not sure.

FWIW, the bike was stored inside and rarely ridden according to my dad (a friend of his owned the bike). No bolts we seized. The seatpost wasn't stuck. Even the housing looked OK. It had a thick layer of dust and nicotine I've had to clean. Not even a crack on the seat (other than an obvious wreck).

I've gone ahead and ordered new modern pads on modern carriers. Some generic brand. If they act funny on the MA40's, I have a ton of road pads that will fit I can use.
The stock holders are nice quality and if you use the Koolstop c89’s (linked to in response#—), you can have the best of both worlds - vintage look, modern pads.

One slight advantage of some modern holders is that the bolts (and mating washers) are sometimes spherical allowing for better accuracy with setting them up for tight tolerance rim sidewall parallel or toed in set-ups.
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Old 10-30-19, 10:42 AM
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these Kool Stop pads (and holders) are excellent and have the "orbital" mounting washers that as Masi says above, allow very free adjustment of angle, toe, etc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KS-CXT-Kool...-/401914890076

this is an excellent part and I have them on several bikes.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
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Old 10-30-19, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mpetry912
these Kool Stop pads (and holders) are excellent and have the "orbital" mounting washers that as Masi says above, allow very free adjustment of angle, toe, etc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KS-CXT-Kool...-/401914890076
There may be better deals on ebay with the same washers but different lock nuts and a bundled set of extra pads:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kool-Stop-S...kAAOSwxQJbGC7o

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kool-Stop-D...AAAOSwry1aQWFP
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Old 10-30-19, 12:40 PM
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thanks for that Surfer, I had not seen that "road" config, the ones I've used are the "cross" ones.

Kool Stop products are pretty good, they have 100s of configurations, but I think these integrated pads and holders with the spherical washers are the best out there, better than OEM and reasonably priced.

the search for the BEST price is always left as an exercise for the reader

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Old 10-30-19, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
To be clear, that is not what I was saying at all. The pads do not change the leverage significantly. New pads will be fine on old brakes. The only thing is that they will not last as long.

The issue is where the pivots are on the calipers themselves. The ends of dual pivot calipers arc upward as they go in. Single pivots for all practical purposes do not. If you put thick pads on dual pivots, the contact point at the rim will creep upward as they wear out, eventually hitting the tire.

Center pull brakes also have this issue, to a lesser degree.
I was just commenting on things I've read in the past about lesser performance with thinner pads on old single pivots. I wasn't referring to your point, which is a good one.
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Old 10-30-19, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BFisher
I was just commenting on things I've read in the past about lesser performance with thinner pads on old single pivots. I wasn't referring to your point, which is a good one.
OK. Got it. I wasn't sure if you were referring to my point, but thought that it was worth clarifying anyway.

The conical washers on modern pads really do make adjustment a lot simpler, and the set screw mechanism for holding the inserts is a big improvement. I currently the Kool Stop dura pads/holders with my GC610 centerpulls, and they are great.
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Old 11-04-19, 02:25 PM
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I've run Dura-Ace 7400 brakes; I probably have a few sets sitting in a big bin 'o brakes.


The problems with these vintage pads is not just they were too small, and the rubber is hardened after 30 years - the main issue is that for a multi-decade span, including the 7400 era, Shimano's brake pads were pure crap. They had a unique ability to pick up small rocks and metal shards, which when embedded, proceeded to grind away at your rims. In the rain, in addition to the scary inadequate braking, the pad material turned to a black goo that coated your rims, and with centrifugal force, flung it out onto your person.


Shimano pads are now much better.


For even more improvement, I recommend ditching the 7400 single-pivots for the 7403 dual-pivots. Much better braking and they self-center. The 7400s were the best single-pivot brakes ever made: superior mechanical advantage, excellent materials, hardware and finish. The 7400's are in every respect better than hopeless vintage floatsam such as Gipiemme, Ofmega, Modolo, and the worst: Dia-Compe. When I receive these at our local bike Co-op, they go deep into the trash. Flexy, thin arms, overly stiff springs, and cheap awkward hardware. Life is too short to be riding on poor brakes - unless you want your life to be short!


Nevertheless, the braking power of the 7403's are far superior to the 7400s. Option: the 6403 dual pivots are just as powerful, and can be bought on Ebay cheap cheap.
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Old 11-04-19, 03:12 PM
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Good info on the Shimano pads.

They're off the bike and will be put into a bag and saved for perpetuity for some reason.

I have 10 speed Campy Chorus on my favorite bike. I'm pretty sure they're single pivot and stop very very well. That is the only single pivot I can compare to. We'll see.
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Old 11-04-19, 04:36 PM
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One thing about the old school brake pad holders with the open end to slide the replacement pad into was that you had to be careful when putting them back on the brake calipers that you didn't inadvertently have that open end of the holder facing forward. Because if you did there was a great chance of a brake shoe leaving the holder if you braked hard.

Cheers
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Old 11-04-19, 04:48 PM
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They're back on the bike and adjusted now since last post. The only thing I noticed is that I need to use more strength to overcome the spring.

This isn't my gravel bike or my serious road bike, so it's ok. I could certainly envision some seriously pumped hands after a wild descent.

Currently have a granny of 42-24 and with Uniglide, probably won't change much, so it's probably going to be spared the steep stuff.
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Old 11-04-19, 05:40 PM
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When I set my '65 Varsity up with long-reaching(!) Weinmann sidepull calipers and with the very basic old model Matthauser blocks with crimped alloy holders, the thicker pads resulted in too much squish at the lever despite the pad's surfaces being perfectly mated at the rim sidewall.
This was with mis-matched Record/Veloce 10s Ergolevers.
As a last-ditch fix that might allow me to retain the stock calipers, I changed to longer, newer-style Kool-Stop dual-compound MTB pads, and lo and behold I got a solid feel at the lever with plenty of braking power at least for my 150# self on more-spirited (i.e. training) rides.
Moral of this story is that if one perseveres with those flimsy old calipers that some good braking power can be found, with a good balance of leverage/travel and actual stopping performance.

Note also that today's thinner pads are for the most part backed up by thicker mounting hardware, including a plain spacer plus one matched set orbital swivel washer. So not too much if any total thickness is lost in most cases.

Using pads of different thickness does not change the pad-dive (or pad-rise) trajectory of the pad surface at the rim at all. But as I think Salamandrine mentioned, the thicker pad will have greater thickness variation over it's life and so will over time result in greater pad contact position change on the rim sidewall (toward the tire).

Plenty of leverage and brake power as shown (using Kool-Stop BMX pads):


Last edited by dddd; 11-04-19 at 05:44 PM.
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