maureenkh

https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=320277137692

Hi,

I wanted to ask about this bike that I bought on ebay last week. It is a Schwinn Ladies Paramount, but is set up differently than the ones that I'm used to seeing. The seller called it a Paramount tourist-P61. I looked up the model before bidding, and found a little information showing that there was such a model sold. Anyway, I haven't received the bike yet, but wanted to share some pictures. I've only uploaded one, but the ebay link has 23 pictures, both as small jpegs, and as large ones, hosted on a different site.

My question is the same that I have for any bike- how can I lower the gearing. Usually, the bikes I have changed were nice, but not special so I didn't feel bad about putting on modern derailleurs, cranks or freewheels. In this case, I'd like to preserve the original drivetrain as much as possible.

Would it be possible to change the Campy strada crank into a triple by using a tripleizer? Could I use a larger freewheel and still have the same Campy rear derailleur? Would it help, if I said that although I would keep the 52 chainwheel, I will never actually use it so the chain could be shortened. Would this let me still keep the original front and rear derailleurs?

One other thing that I found odd was that during bidding, the bike was shown on many websites, but I couldn't find a single comment about it on any of them, neither as a "catch" nor a "numbskull". I bought it because I'm an in-between size on a men's frame. The 21" frames are a little small, the 23" are a little big. So, I get the 21" ones but have to change the stems and seatposts. This bike is a 22" so it should fit fine. My only worry is that I am not a small person and I hope the ladies frame will be ok. I won't be ridding it hard so hopefully it won't flex too much under my Athena weight.

Thanks for any comments or suggestions.

Maureen

Scooper

Hi Maureen,

First off, congratulations on your acquisition. It appears to be in really nice shape.

The P61, as far as I know, wasn't offered as a model in the seventies. The two ladies model Paramounts offered from 1973 until 1979 were the P60 (10-speed) and P65 (15-speed - triple plateau chainring). Both of these models came with drop handlebars.

1973 P60 and P65 Ladies Paramount consumer catalog page

1973 Paramount Catalog (P60 and P65 are on pages 6 and 7).

1973 Retail Price List (P60 and P65 are near the bottom of the page).

The P61 was a ladies tourist model made in the fifties with fixed gear, freewheeling single speed, or Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hubs, equipped pretty much like your new bike with tourist handlebars and a mattress saddle. Here's a picture of one in the 1955 catalog.

My guess is that your bike is essentially a P60 equipped at the factory with the tourist handlebars and mattress saddle like the old P61 model. Schwinn was very flexible in customizing Paramounts at the factory based on customers' requests, and I think your bike may be one of these special orders.

Since the same frame was used for the P60 and P65, your bike could be changed to a period correct Campy triple. This would mean essentially changing the whole drive train from bottom bracket to crank set, both derailleurs, and to get the wider gearing, a new freewheel with the same cogs as the P65. Or, if you're not that concerned about originality, you could go with a modern compact double and 10-speed cassette. You'd have to coldset the rear triangle for 130mm spacing and relace your rims to a new 10-speed rear hub.

Because it's a ladies' frame, it won't be as stiff as a mens' frame, but unless you're racing hard that shouldn't be a problem, even with your "Athena weight"...

Hope this helps.

East Hill

Hehehehehe Maureen, I am glad I did not compete against you! Now we have two more members with Paramounts .

Yours also looks to be in beautiful shape, congratulations!

East Hill

Grand Bois

I think you should ride the bike before you think about making any changes.

bbattle

I'd get a longer chain. eek.

Scooper

Unless she cross-chains (big chainring to one of the two larger cogs) it shouldn't be a problem.

maureenkh

Hi Stan, Dirtdrop and East Hill

Thank you for the information and links for the 1970's P60 and P65 models. I had suspected the same thing about the bike really being a P60 with handlebar and saddle modifications. I was pretty sure that the modifications were done by Schwinn at the factory because the handlebar and stem chosen were good quality alloy by GB, the shifters are the Schwinn "Twin-stick" (an option for Paramounts at that time), and the mattress saddle is a good quality one with a real leather top instead of vinyl.
I agree with Dirtdrop, that I should probably ride it before changing anything. I have other bikes with the gearing dialed in that I can use when I want a workout. This bike will probably be my "ride down to the coffee shop in style" bike. But one change I will make almost immediately is that saddle. I think that a black Brooks B66 or B67 (depending on the seatpost) will look much better. I'll consider collecting parts for a P15/P65 drivetrain like the one on East Hill's new treasure. As for "cold setting".... ahhhhhhh -NOOOOOOO!!!. Any changes I make to this bike will be ones that are easily changed back to the original.

East Hill, thanks very much for your congrats. The funny thing is that I found this bike because I was looking to see what Paramount you had just bought. But, don't worry, we will never compete for bikes. I am 5' 7.5'' tall with a 32 inch inseam. When I realized that this one would fit me, I used Kurt's advice to you and signed up at the bid snipping service. It worked

Maureen

Marrock

I think he was talking more about the wheel's position in the dropout more than the gearing.

maureenkh

Yikes!!! - good point, I hadn't noticed that. Thank you!!!

Maureen

Marrock

No problem, that pic made my eye twitch a bit when I saw it.

Grand Bois

How about a B18? My wife loves hers.



The new maroon color might look nice on your bike.

maureenkh

Oh my, yes, I had forgotten about the B18. Lovely!
Though, I might stick with either the B18 in antique brown or a black saddle since the bike is orange and could clash with some colors.

Maureen

Rabid Koala

Maureen, welcome to the ever growing and somewhat elite group of Paramount owners! I watched that auction, not because I was needing a woman's frame Paramount, but because they are so scarce!

When you get it, some more pictures please.

maureenkh

Absolutely, I have a digital camera and now I know how to add a jpeg to the board. As for the bike, I think I may have saved it from being parted out or its components transferred to a men's frame. There were some bidders who went up to ~ $450 and then two of us that snipped. Fortunately, I snipped higher. I actually wanted the bike, not just the parts. We have a retro/used bike shop in St Louis with an owner who knows how to work on vintage bikes. I haven't called him yet, but I think that when this one finally arrives, it will go directly to him for a complete overhall and reassembly. I would rather not practice my very limited wrenching skills on this one.

Maureen

MnHPVA Guy

Maureen,
I believe that most of the flex will be in the vertical plane which is a good thing as long as the seat tube doesn't yield. I believe that if high strength materials are used, a so-called "ladies" frame can be superior to a mixte. Colnago, Cinelli and Grandis have all made lightweight "Ladies" frames.

Could you tell me what diameter seat post is on your bike? That will let me know what gauge tubing was used. I hope to find time to build Jane a very lightweight "Ladies" bike, and am aiming for a much lighter frame than her mixte. If I ever found out what she weighs, I think she'd have to kill me, but I think it's around 190.

Scooper

Maureen's 1973 P60 will have a 27.2mm seatpost. The 531 seat tubes have an O.D. of 28.6mm, with 0.9mm wall thickness at the bottom bracket and 0.6mm at the top. This yields an I.D. of 27.4mm for the seatpost. The wall thickness and roundness tolerance, and the distortion resulting from brazing the seat cluster made the 27.2mm seatpost a perfect fit.

maureenkh

Be sure to never let Jane know you have a clue to her weight. Don't worry, I'll never tell. Actually, the seat tube flex issue is one of the reasons I will probably stay with a sprung saddle of one kind or another. Those springs will absorb some of the weight, especially if the bike is ridden over a bump. The lovely B18 shown a couple of posts above has a small, modified spring similar to the B72 model so it's one that I'll definately consider, or else a B66/B67. Or, who knows, for the few blocks I may be riding to that coffee shop, the existing, nice quality mattress saddle may be fine. I'll know when the bike finally arrives.

Maureen

Xlr8n

Maureen- Beautiful bike you got there! I noticed that bike on ebay as it was so clean and my favorite color! I was hoping it would find a good home intact and not be bought as a parts bike! Enjoy!!

maureenkh

Thank you, Xir8n. No, definately not a parts bike! I've always wanted a Paramount, and am thilled to get this one. Keep your fingers crossed that it survives UPS. I told the seller that I would be glad to pay extra to have it packed professionally, so hopefully his bikeshop does a good job packing it. I haven't gotten a tracking number email yet so I'm guessing it hasn't been shipped yet.

Maureen

maureenkh

[QUOTE=Dirtdrop;7195944]How about a B18? My wife loves hers.

By the way, Dirtdrop, I have a Fuji Mixte also, that I bought off ebay last year but haven't set up yet. How does your wife like hers? What model is it? Mine is a light, ice blue, 56 cm Fuji Gran Tourer SE 12 speed, but I don't know what year. From the components I would guess mid to late 70s.

Maureen

MnHPVA Guy

I've built enough frames to know that that is generally the case with 531. But do you know for sure that the same seat tube was used on the ladies models? Due to the added bending load I wouldn't be surprised if they used a 531 Tourist ST (27.0 seat post) or even 531 plain gauge.

BTW Chris Kvale's temperature control is so good that he often had to use 27.4 seat posts with 531 (after a slight reaming.) Sometimes he wouldn't get enough distortion to use a 27.2. Got to admit I've never had that problem.

maureenkh

As soon as the bike comes, I'll look at the seat post and let you know the size. I kind of hope Schwinn did use a thicker gauge tubing in the seat tube. It is very tall on the 22 inch ladies frame and that is a lot of leverage that will be exerted against it. I was thinking the same thing- if not plain gauge, at least the 531 Tourist ST.

Maureen

cudak888 

Was 531 Tourist ST available back in '61? My 1961 P-12 requires a 27.0 post.

-Kurt

MnHPVA Guy

I ride B-17s, B-72s and B-66/67s. I find the ride of the B-72 much closer to the unsprung B-17s than the fully sprung models. Jane and most of her friends won't ride anything but B-67s. In antique brown or honey they look pretty darned nice after Proofide and a few miles. Unless you need the 2 wire look of the B-66 for an older bike, the B-67 is a better choice - Cheaper, no seatpost issues and over 5 ounces lighter. The newer 2 wire saddle clamps are junk. The serrations aren't as hard as the old ones.

If I ever win the lottery I'll commission a special run of Titanium B-67s. Lots of metal there, so lots of weight to be saved.

MnHPVA Guy

I know there wasn't a tube set called the "Tourist" in '59. But for years they made "Standard", "Heavyweight" and SL. Standard seat tubes were 21/24 Ga. single butted. Heavyweight were 19/22 Ga. Wouldn't be surprised if some marketing type suggested they rename the Heavyweight set, Tourist.