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Riding "Measurement Free"

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Riding "Measurement Free"

Old 06-25-19, 05:24 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
Other than in the limit of zero, time I don't see what the difference is between building endurance and power. How is it different to say I increased the watts I could maintain for X seconds (increased power) from saying I increased the time I could maintain X watts (increased endurance)? In other words, how is shifting the power-duration curve to the right different from shifting it up?
Power/speed if very related to muscle mass. The longer the event the harder to feed and expel waste from larger muscles. The shorter the rides the more power/speed comes from the gym and weights. The longer the rides the more from endurance (and maybe a PM program). But if you are saying is going faster for shorter times better than going faster than longer times I have no answer. But is the event is shorter, many will use the gym. They may not finish the RR, but they will be much faster than the ones that do.


Nobody much commented on the two guys in the video above.

Cam set the Kona record in 2017. Then set it again in 2018. He said not using a PM.
Taylor says how he rides. He was particularly fast (junior world ITT champ) and states he does not use a PM.

Both ride with reduced measurements and state it and explain it. I happen to agree with those two and the OP.
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Old 06-25-19, 05:26 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Power/speed if very related to muscle mass. The longer the event the harder to feed and expel waste from larger muscles. The shorter the rides the more power/speed comes from the gym and weights.
Do you even know what a power-duration curve is? Because nothing of what you wrote addresses my question.
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Old 06-25-19, 05:36 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
Then this sounds like progress and (I assume) you would agree that for an endurance workout with specific exertion targets, that a power meter would be a excellent way to monitor said workout.

dave
A PM is a great way to monitor a workout. So is GPS. They tell you what you did.
If the goal is to build strength and speed I think there are alternative better ways.

Chris Dellasega (find on Facebook) trains some of our fastest USA riders, including the kid that just smashed the world record 4K.
Several of his riders have issues finishing a 100mile RR. Mine won't bother entering, he does not have the time to train.

Chris's training may not involve a bike - or a PM.
USA Cycling coaches like to use the Wattbike to see results, but that is not training. That is monitoring.
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Old 06-25-19, 05:38 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I understand the physiology (and so how you would train) may be different for different durations, but conceptually what is the difference between increasing power and increasing endurance?
I am not sure that I understand the question, but 5000 watts of output for 1 second is 5000 joules put into the system. And 1 watt of output for 5000 seconds is also 5000 joules put into the system. Which is 'better' depends on the circumstances.

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Old 06-25-19, 05:41 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
I am not sure that I understand the question, but 5000 watts of output for 1 second is 5000 joules put into the system. And 1 watt of output for 5000 seconds is also 5000 joules put into the system. Which is 'better' depends on the circumstances.

dave
The question, succinctly, is what is the difference between shifting the power-duration curve up (increasing power) and shifting it to the right (endurance)?

Or to give an example, how is it different to say I increased my five minute power from 250 W to 260 W than to say I increased my endurance at 260 W from 4 minutes to 5?

Last edited by asgelle; 06-25-19 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 06-25-19, 05:48 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
The question, succinctly, is what is the difference between shifting the power-duration curve up (increasing power) and shifting it to the right (endurance)?

Or to give an example, how is it different to say I increased my five minute power from 250 W to 260 W than to say I increased my endurance at 260 W from 4 minutes to 5?
I don't think this is the answer you are looking for, but up requires that you increase your energy output per unit of time (for a fixed time interval) while right requires that you maintain your energy output per unit of time for a longer period of time. I assume you have something else in mind...

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Old 06-25-19, 05:49 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
Do you even know what a power-duration curve is? Because nothing of what you wrote addresses my question.
You tell me.
You asked two questions and reworded, so I guessed.

Weights will help about anything but less so on multi day racing.

Training Peaks has a power-duration curve, the WKO software has it.
I don't don't spend much time with it. That is not a training philosophy I subscribe to
(nor do the two in the videos), so if is something else you can explain it.

I think the last category steady state at 10 min to several hours is pretty wide. I see big fallout at 1 hour, 90min, 2-3 hours, multiple days etc.
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Old 06-25-19, 05:51 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Doge
A PM is a great way to monitor a workout. So is GPS. They tell you what you did.
If the goal is to build strength and speed I think there are alternative better ways.

Chris Dellasega (find on Facebook) trains some of our fastest USA riders, including the kid that just smashed the world record 4K.
Several of his riders have issues finishing a 100mile RR. Mine won't bother entering, he does not have the time to train.

Chris's training may not involve a bike - or a PM.
USA Cycling coaches like to use the Wattbike to see results, but that is not training. That is monitoring.
I would make one VERY important change to the above. A PM is a great way to TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW (as well as being a historical record).

dave
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Old 06-25-19, 05:55 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Training Peaks has a power-duration curve, the WKO software has it.
No. The two programs plot the curve, every rider has a maximal mean power they can maintain for any duration whether they know it or not.
Originally Posted by Doge
I don't don't spend much time with it. That is not a training philosophy I subscribe to
(nor do the two in the videos), so if is something else you can explain it.
What is the purpose of training other than to improve performance, and how can performance improve without raising the P-D curve or shifting it to the right*?

As should be obvious, the two are synonymous.
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Old 06-25-19, 05:59 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Doge
It sounds like you may not understand what I am saying, that is on me.

I am proposing a philosophy, that says max strength (and short range power) is developed through max muscle fatigue (when warmed up etc.), and then recovery. Some of these ideas have been around a very long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Slow

Typically training to failure would be only in a gym and only certain times, and ideally with a spotter so you can finish a rep. But the person does not start thinking 150# X 8 reps. They may start 80X15, then 100X12 then 150 times whatever it is, and not finish a rep. They are going to a level of fatigue. A trainer really helps.
Other times the person training is training to a fatigue level. It may not be failure. But it is based on how they feel, rest etc.

[...] I do believe building speed is better accomplished with non bike things and non number things. "Measurement Free".
Towards the beginning, you're describing a progression, eg the numbers keep getting bigger. As you said, you don't start out at 150 lbs, you start at 50 and work your way up. There's no way that's a non-numbers thing. I mean you described it using numbers!

If you go into any gym and look at the people who know what they're doing - that's usually the big guys - they're not just throwing any random amount of weight on the bar and listing it until they reach exhaustion.

And nobody thinks bench pressing 225 lbs in a 5x5 scheme (25 total reps) is the same as benching 6 lbs 1,000 times. That would get you approx the same total volume, but would not produce the station necessary to provoke the adaptations people go to the gym for.
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Old 06-25-19, 06:03 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
The question, succinctly, is what is the difference between shifting the power-duration curve up (increasing power) and shifting it to the right (endurance)?

Or to give an example, how is it different to say I increased my five minute power from 250 W to 260 W than to say I increased my endurance at 260 W from 4 minutes to 5?
I'm not so sure they are all that different. As I have made it very clear I don't look at PM data much. Although I have some going back to 90s.
Going 200W from 1 hour to 3 hours is endurance.


The training philosophy I've been around would work on weight training without measuring, then adding time in saddle to the nearest 30 min so.
My/our focus is different. Other than Strava, training is designed to win races. So, like the OP, Measurement Free* is something I identify with.

*When really targeting an event, things like weight, sleep eating are all things to watch. Right now I have some files on my Garmin that are weeks old. I can pull them out and look.

They recorded my ride, but are not used for anything. I know how to personally get faster. Diet, weights and riding. Particularly being older.
No race I would do (hypothetical) will require much more than W/kg. The Kg is easier done at the table and the W at the gym.
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Old 06-25-19, 06:12 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Doge
I'm not so sure they are all that different. As I have made it very clear I don't look at PM data much. Although I have some going back to 90s.
Going 200W from 1 hour to 3 hours is endurance.
And so is going from 180 W to 200 W for three hours. It is wrong to think of increasing endurance as different from increasing power.
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Old 06-25-19, 06:23 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Towards the beginning, you're describing a progression, eg the numbers keep getting bigger. As you said, you don't start out at 150 lbs, you start at 50 and work your way up. There's no way that's a non-numbers thing. I mean you described it using numbers!


If you go into any gym and look at the people who know what they're doing - that's usually the big guys - they're not just throwing any random amount of weight on the bar and listing it until they reach exhaustion.


And nobody thinks bench pressing 225 lbs in a 5x5 scheme (25 total reps) is the same as benching 6 lbs 1,000 times. That would get you approx the same total volume, but would not produce the station necessary to provoke the adaptations people go to the gym for.
OK. That was for communication. Most those that train this way do not know what they can do. I did this too. I warm up with weights I'm used to. If they are in use, I grab another size/weigh. I stop 1st set at a certain level of fatigue - just as it starts to burn a bit. I wait about a min, don't look at the watch do the opposing muscle. Wait about a min pickup a heavier weight and target fewer reps ~12, do opposing groups, wait a bit. The last set I know is going to hurt. If it is a normal day I will not max out/fail. I am old and lazy and generally there cause I was driving my kid. But if I'm into it, about 1X a week, that final set will be 5-8 reps and I'll be spotted on the last one.


The neuromuscular increases are huge. The building real size/mass I can't tell you which is better. I think this is, but I've done the gym cards and finished all my sets and it seems going to fatigue - no number, until I can't go anymore works better.

I can't do that on a bike - I'll fall over, or brake something, and the reps are too high on the bike to build as well as the gym.


Anyway...I agreed with the OP. I posted two (the only) videos on the topic. I recall Fabian Cancellara saying the same. I linked to Super Slow (not saying do that, just a train to fatigue philosophy). I know cyclist are really into equipment and tools and toys and books on PMs and WKO and Training Peaks and W/Kg and FTP and VO2, and blood hematology all things I've paid a lot to have measured and compared with others.

I have reached the opinion that the Measurement Free riding is not going to make someone slow.


We have not discussed the people are not lab rats philosophy as well. There is so much measurement some riders can take.

They will throw/unplug their radios, toss Garmin's, toss bikes, stay up all night, get drunk etc. when they get feed up with being poked and prodded.

They take long leaves of absences from the sport.
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Old 06-25-19, 06:33 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
And so is going from 180 W to 200 W for three hours. It is wrong to think of increasing endurance as different from increasing power.
Depends on what you want to do.

Endurance is the ability to get to the line.
Power provides the ability to get to the line first.
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Old 06-25-19, 06:35 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Depends on what you want to do.

Endurance is the ability to get to the line.
Power provides the ability to get to the line first.
Pithy but meaningless.
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Old 06-25-19, 06:40 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
Pithy but meaningless.
I said it depends on what you want to do. You have not responded.
What is it you want to do? Win races? Finish Fondos, win Tues night World Championships?

Sign up with Chris, tell him. He'll do a routine for you. I'm sure if you let him know it requires bike measurement devices, he'll comply. If you ask him how to get faster (whatever that means to you, he will want to know.), he may not think the bike matters so much.
https://www.facebook.com/coachchrisdellasega/
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Old 06-25-19, 06:44 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Doge
I said it depends on what you want to do. You have not responded.
What is it you want to do? Win races? Finish Fondos, win Tues night World Championship?
I want to get you to stop misleading people with incorrect information, preferably through education. Can Coach Chris help with that?
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Old 06-25-19, 06:52 PM
  #93  
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I can wholly appreciate what the OP is about here-- he's not trying to get faster, he's not particularly interested in how fast he's going, and the ride is every bit as enjoyable without metrics being recorded and analyzed. It's not complicated-- I get it.

I think the stuff about whether professional athletes use power meters to train/race is absolutely non sequitur. The only thing a guy going for the hour record has in common with me (and I hazard to assume the OP) is that he's operating a bicycle with his legs.

It's impossible to argue the efficacy of gadgets when talking about people who are "supernormal." They were born with the ability to carry more oxygen in their blood than I was. They were born with different musculature than I was.

I could train all day and night with the best coaches and best equipment and never be nearly as fast. I was not dealt those cards. It's like hitting a 95mph fastball. You cannot learn to do it. You either can or you can't.

So you go, OP. Enjoy a data-free ride. I personally love the numbers, even if I can watch myself gradually get slower. Analyzing what I did where during a ride is part of the fun.
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Old 06-25-19, 08:45 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
So ... they don't know what the numbers on the plates mean? They don't know if they are adding 5 lbs or 25 lbs? And how do they count without using ... ummm .... what are those things called again?
And even if they didn't know what the weight of the plates was in pounds they know how many plates they are using, which is basically the same thing.
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Old 06-25-19, 09:36 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Doge
OK. That was for communication. Most those that train this way do not know what they can do. I did this too. I warm up with weights I'm used to. If they are in use, I grab another size/weigh. I stop 1st set at a certain level of fatigue - just as it starts to burn a bit. I wait about a min, don't look at the watch do the opposing muscle. Wait about a min pickup a heavier weight and target fewer reps ~12, do opposing groups, wait a bit. The last set I know is going to hurt. If it is a normal day I will not max out/fail. I am old and lazy and generally there cause I was driving my kid. But if I'm into it, about 1X a week, that final set will be 5-8 reps and I'll be spotted on the last one.


The neuromuscular increases are huge. The building real size/mass I can't tell you which is better. I think this is, but I've done the gym cards and finished all my sets and it seems going to fatigue - no number, until I can't go anymore works better.

I can't do that on a bike - I'll fall over, or brake something, and the reps are too high on the bike to build as well as the gym.


Anyway...I agreed with the OP. I posted two (the only) videos on the topic. I recall Fabian Cancellara saying the same. I linked to Super Slow (not saying do that, just a train to fatigue philosophy). I know cyclist are really into equipment and tools and toys and books on PMs and WKO and Training Peaks and W/Kg and FTP and VO2, and blood hematology all things I've paid a lot to have measured and compared with others.

I have reached the opinion that the Measurement Free riding is not going to make someone slow.


We have not discussed the people are not lab rats philosophy as well. There is so much measurement some riders can take.

They will throw/unplug their radios, toss Garmin's, toss bikes, stay up all night, get drunk etc. when they get feed up with being poked and prodded.

They take long leaves of absences from the sport.
For the record, I agree with you that neromuscular recruitment improves strength in a big way. And I she that sleep, nutrition, weight, motivation, and the like are very important on the bike. It's obvious you have a lot of knowledge and insight, I just don't know how you can be so wrong about numbers.
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Old 06-25-19, 09:51 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
For the record, I agree with you that neromuscular recruitment improves strength in a big way. And I she that sleep, nutrition, weight, motivation, and the like are very important on the bike. It's obvious you have a lot of knowledge and insight, I just don't know how you can be so wrong about numbers.
Can you comment on the two videos, Cam and Taylor?
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Old 06-25-19, 10:11 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Doge
I don't think I posted about my kid, but thanks for the information. Yes, both would be faster for anything over 5 min*, certainly now, under that and I doubt you'd know. He's ridden with Peter and teammates several times.

My statement about Wiggins, as you know, is correct. There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record). They are racing "Measurement Free", as are the two videos I posted above.
Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.

*Actually you can lookup Peace Race in Czech Republic ITT. I don't know Peter's health, but mine was recovering from sickness, being hit by a motorcycle and had the mechanic put the wheel on backwards, but did quite a bit faster time than Peter a few years before same course, same race, same age.
As Wiggins has won multiple Olympic gold medals in the 4000m pursuit I doubt your son would be faster in a sub 5min effort either.
Although I am sure he is an excellent cyclist and it is great that you are a proud father.
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Old 06-25-19, 10:20 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Dean V
As Wiggins has won multiple Olympic gold medals in the 4000m pursuit I doubt your son would be faster in a sub 5min effort either.
Although I am sure he is an excellent cyclist and it is great that you are a proud father.
These are all shorter events. Using WT pros is a bit of a red herring.

In that 5 min, would you argue half a dozen elite juniors could stay on his wheel and out sprint him? I would.
I doubt he's got 15 sec power of a bunch of kids.

Similarly I think you could find several USA juniors that could beat Sagan up a mountain in a 1 hour TT.
While I expect none could beat Wiggans (then) on an uphill long event.

USA has some real real fast crit sprinters. I'd take a peaked Justin Williams over any TdF winner ever. And likely over the TdF sprinters - in a USA 60 min crit.

The difference is the time where the contests take place. None of the above would be there at 120 miles.

After a few miles - 20-40 I doubt Wiggans is going to be a better sprinter, or Sagan a better climber.

These riders come to SoCal and ride. They ride Como, Swami's, Simi, Rose Bowl. Sometimes on rides they just talk to the girls, sometimes they ride hard. A bunch of riders know them.
Cam in video above (former Sagan teammate) is one of the nicest guys in the world and was regularly chatting it up with my kid and giving tips and racing for KOMs with him.
These are super human racers, but that is at those super human distances. Doing short distance comparisons is not as useful, even if I don't mention my kid.


I don't think there is any pretense any junior or U23 can do what the WT pros do without a few more years. That does not change the fact that, as in about all sports, youth male power is pretty high late teens. VO2 max peaks at 18?

Anyway, I have lots of video and data on my kid, so I use it for arguments. But, I'd take a huge bet I could pick 6 junior/U23 riders that would beat Wiggans in a 5 min head to head race.
1-2 years after being a junior we have 20 year olds winning ToC. Winning USA Pro. Several 20 year olds top 5 for MTB and and CX.

Last edited by Doge; 06-25-19 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 06-26-19, 12:09 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Doge
These are all shorter events. Using WT pros is a bit of a red herring.

In that 5 min, would you argue half a dozen elite juniors could stay on his wheel and out sprint him? I would.
I doubt he's got 15 sec power of a bunch of kids.
You keep moving the goal posts here. It was sub 5 mins and now it has gone to having a better sprint!
No one ever said he was a sprinter.
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Old 06-26-19, 01:14 AM
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guachi
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Originally Posted by Doge

Anyway, I have lots of video and data on my kid, so I use it for arguments. But, I'd take a huge bet I could pick 6 junior/U23 riders that would beat Wiggans in a 5 min head to head race.
1-2 years after being a junior we have 20 year olds winning ToC. Winning USA Pro. Several 20 year olds top 5 for MTB and and CX.
Wiggins (not Wiggans) is 39 and retired. So perhaps you could find 6 U23 riders that could ALL beat him in a 5 min race. But probably not. And if these kids are so hot why aren't they lighting things up in Team Pursuit? Where are they? The US has (checks wikipedia) medaled in Team Pursuit once - a silver in 1984. Get on it. Pick these 6 juniors and win a medal!
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