vintagerando

Yeah, I keep searching. What about the double brazed on cable guides on the downtube? Were these common? I haven't seen them on many frames.

cudak888 

No idea if that config is common, but the casting looks like the same squared off cable stops used by Raleigh and most British bike builders at the time.

It is the main reason I'm leaning heavily towards this being a UK build.

-Kurt

seypat

Cable guides like those have been on some bikes posted in this forum recently. Older ones. I have a 72 Lejeune that has them. My 72 Crescent does not have them. It does have the lugs. Crescent made a chrome bike. That is one possibility.

rustystrings61 

This is the method I used a couple of years back on an old Mercier with good results - like Kurt said, leave the headset cups in place to prevent ovalization. In this photo I had let things sag back apart, but the top cup was seated when I was exerting force. It's surprising how easy this actually was - the utility pole did a lot of the work. I used a length of galvanized plumbing pipe from Lowe's, not as sophisticated as cudak888's propellor shaft, but an amazingly useful tool I originally bought to use as a cheater bar to removed truck bed bolts. Every workshop should have one!

Oh, and OP? BEAUTIFUL find.

unworthy1

The cable-guide braze-ons on down tube were fairly commonplace for any bike intended to use bar-end controls (barcons) so nothing that unusual on a frame with long DOs and cable clips, etc. Does sort of indicate this may have been a semi-custom build for a customer that specified what components they were using. Many Brit builders would do that including Holdsworthy (who also very occasionally did use Nervex pro lugs but AFAIK not an EDA BB shell). This may never get an exact ID but OP could try sending it to somebody like Norris Lockley or Hillary Stone...maybe best to join and enquire thru the Classic Rendezvous "List" (a Google group, free to join) Also agreed that having recessed bolts for both F&R brakes IS a bit unusual for a frame that appears to early for thi, BUT let's see a pic of that brake bridge (and the 2 may have been drilled out after-market or it's more evidence of a "custom build")

jeirvine 

This picture makes me happy. I love our strange hobby.

vintagerando

cudak888 

I wouldn't be surprised if the BB substitution was for the same reason Schwinn stopped using Nervex Pros on the Paramount: Too much effort to clean them up well and often difficult to fit.

-Kurt

jackbombay

Yea, I have an old Hercules that will be getting that treatment sometime this summer!

cudak888 

Pics aren't that sharp. Looks drilled out to me.

-Kurt

St33lWh33ls

Seat cluster looks a lot like this Raleigh International

link

cudak888 

OP's bike has full wraparound stays. That International has partial-wrap stays; they're pointed and meet in the center.

I did consider the Raleigh International angle, but it doesn't explain the nice lugwork and the removal of the flanges on the top and bottom of the Nervex lugs, which the Internationals retained.

Also, this would have assumed that a framebuilder conciously removed the top tube cable stop braze ons and either re-positioned them to the areas on the bike now, or bought the same type of cable stop braze ons, installed them, and then removed the TT guides.

-Kurt

vintagerando

Its quite amazing that the stem, seatpost, and BB cups came out on the first turn. Almost unbelievable considering how beat up the bike is.

cudak888 

Someone probably greased them all on installation, the way they were meant to be installed. Works wonders, even after a bike has been through the wringer, like this one.

-Kurt

big chainring 

Maybe a Bob Jackson?

unworthy1

Suppose that it could be a Bob Jackson (AKA JRJ or maybe even one of his Merlins) but no clue that gives away anything. JRJ/Jackson/Merlin certainly did use Nervex pro lugs but by around this frame's era they were employing more Prugnat lugs, typically. And not sure they ever used EDA BB shells. I saw something that may be a clue: the serial numerals on both BB shell and steerer have not rusted (much) compared to the "R ^ M" and I agree that looks more like an inverted "V" than an "A", on the BB shell. Leads me to think it was done after the chroming (not before) so more likely stamped by an owner than a builder.

vintagerando

I showed my buddy a mechanic at my LBS. Mind you, he just looked at two photos; he immediately said "Crescent"

unworthy1

Don't think so: Crescent (Monark) didn't use a full-wrap seat cluster nor a sloping fork crown, usually. Plus this would not be one of their Stainless Steel models because: rust.
see CR's page on Crescent: h**p://www.classicrendezvous.com/Sweden/crescent.htm

cudak888 

I wouldn't necessarily rule Bob Jackson out though. There was that 63cm frame on eBay with Nervex lugs and the sloping Davis crown. Most Jacksons with Nervex lugs still have a slight edge on the lug ends though.

The lugwork on Cresents was rough as a cob, and they didn't clean up those rings at each end of the Nervex Pros. Plus, the lugs would be full of surface rust if left unpainted.

-Kurt

cqlink 

Evapo-Rust at Pep Boys is your new best friend.

Kactus

It looks like the first variation without the c-clip or screw spring retainer. This would put it around '61 or '62?

It looks like a very nice quality frame. If it can be straightened and doesn't have serious rust damage, the OP may have a real gem.

vintagerando

Thanks for info. Yeah...about the rust issue. Bottom bracket area is bad. Now I need to investigate, among the products that can be used for rust removal , which will not damage the chrome patina. If you have any ideas, please share.

MauriceMoss

Most of the elements of this frame were employed by multiple British marques, so pinning this one down might be difficult.


I don’t have an exact match for this mystery bike, but here are pics of individual elements found on various frames, all from the same marque (I’m trying something new with the pics, so bear with me):



Nervex Pro lugs, “rib” (or rim/lip) removed:





Sloping fork crown:





Double chainstay cable stops:








Double cable brazeons on the downtube:





Brake bridge:





Wraparound seat stays:





Stay ends:




5 digit serial number on bottom bracket shell, stamped parallel with the drive side edge:




All the compare pics above are from Mercian built frames.

As I mentioned at the beginning, I don’t have an exact match, so all this doesn’t necessarily mean we’re looking at a Mercian here, but there are enough similarities here to warrant further investigation.

You will find Mercians with:

• Full chrome finish
• Sloping fork crowns
• Nervex lugs, both with the “rib” or “lip” trimmed and not
• Double downtube brazeons as on the mystery frame
• Double cable stops on the chainstay, as on the mystery frame
• Wraparound seat stays
• 5 digit frame number on the bottom bracket shell, stamped along the drive side edge
• No head badge rivet holes
• The same style brake bridge as on the mystery bike

“RVM” stamp: I have no clue what it signifies; never seen one like it. As @unworthy1 mentioned earlier, it looks like it was probably stamped later as it looks more rusted out than the frame number. This would point to it perhaps being PO’s initials.

EDA bottom bracket shell: Use of EDA bottom bracket shells by Mercian is an unknown here that might throw a wrench into the spokes. I’m not a Mercian expert, so if anyone knows more about this, please share the knowledge.

Serial number: If a Mercian, it would point to the frame being made in 1969.


Luckily Mercian is still in business and active online, so you might be able to get a confirmation one way or the other. Would love to hear what their official response is.


As always, this assessment could be way off and we might be dealing with something completely different, but for the moment I’m leaning towards Mercian.

cudak888 

Now that @MauriceMoss has posted those excellent pictures, I'm rather more convinced than he is that we are looking at one.

I dare say the identical treatment (and spacing) of the derailer cable stop is enough of a smoking gun on its own. Combined with the double cable stops alone (as opposed to a clamp-on fitting) and it's difficult to say otherwise. The treatment of the wraparound stays is also dead-on identical, and while other builders may have achieved similar results, achieving identical results is another matter.

-Kurt

unworthy1

Yes! I think this is closer than ever to the solution, thanks to PROFESSOR Moss, again! If somebody can confirm that Mercian used EDA BB shells I'd say Moss has nailed it...bravo!