Different Spin Rates Causing Problem
#26
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It's about compromise. The tandem, used well, evens out your different abilities. It's Marxism in action. From each, according to his/her abilities.
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I have limited experience on tandems but I could swear reading some ad copy a few years back for a company that made tandems with some sort of independent drive setup that would let both stoker and captain spin at different rates. Can't for the life of me find it now.
So what's the verdict on that setup -- actually useful or does it have problems? Does it even exist or is it just something I dreamed of and thought it was real? That happens sometimes when I eat pepperoni too close to bedtime.
So what's the verdict on that setup -- actually useful or does it have problems? Does it even exist or is it just something I dreamed of and thought it was real? That happens sometimes when I eat pepperoni too close to bedtime.
#28
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I have limited experience on tandems but I could swear reading some ad copy a few years back for a company that made tandems with some sort of independent drive setup that would let both stoker and captain spin at different rates. Can't for the life of me find it now.
So what's the verdict on that setup -- actually useful or does it have problems? Does it even exist or is it just something I dreamed of and thought it was real? That happens sometimes when I eat pepperoni too close to bedtime.
So what's the verdict on that setup -- actually useful or does it have problems? Does it even exist or is it just something I dreamed of and thought it was real? That happens sometimes when I eat pepperoni too close to bedtime.
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Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
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Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
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Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
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That is the DaVinci line of tandems. We have one and like it. We can spin at different rates, though my stoker usually syncs with me. We rode non-DaVinci tandems for 30 or so years before getting the DaVinci, so we were used to spinning together. I like being able to stand up and stretch while she pedals and we both like that she can control her pedals to avoid hitting in a turn or going over something. We ride every day, but do not consider riding a major work out. Our heart rate monitor is manual (if we're both breathing we keep going) and we pedal at unknown rpms (somewhere between 1 and 100). I can't speak to how the DaVinci tandems perform for riders who have more challenging roads than what we have (all flat except up and down the river levee and a few bridges). We have experienced chain suck on occasion when going from the middle ring to the big ring. But, that is infrequent since I let the stoker know to stop pedaling before I switch.
I have limited experience on tandems but I could swear reading some ad copy a few years back for a company that made tandems with some sort of independent drive setup that would let both stoker and captain spin at different rates. Can't for the life of me find it now.
So what's the verdict on that setup -- actually useful or does it have problems? Does it even exist or is it just something I dreamed of and thought it was real? That happens sometimes when I eat pepperoni too close to bedtime.
So what's the verdict on that setup -- actually useful or does it have problems? Does it even exist or is it just something I dreamed of and thought it was real? That happens sometimes when I eat pepperoni too close to bedtime.
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That is the DaVinci line of tandems. We have one and like it. We can spin at different rates, though my stoker usually syncs with me. We rode non-DaVinci tandems for 30 or so years before getting the DaVinci, so we were used to spinning together. I like being able to stand up and stretch while she pedals and we both like that she can control her pedals to avoid hitting in a turn or going over something. We ride every day, but do not consider riding a major work out. Our heart rate monitor is manual (if we're both breathing we keep going) and we pedal at unknown rpms (somewhere between 1 and 100). I can't speak to how the DaVinci tandems perform for riders who have more challenging roads than what we have (all flat except up and down the river levee and a few bridges). We have experienced chain suck on occasion when going from the middle ring to the big ring. But, that is infrequent since I let the stoker know to stop pedaling before I switch.
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"Power struggle", LOL. I never intimated any such idea. It's just that I'm old school. I was raised to accommodate women and give them comfort. I am strong enough to adjust my cadence so that my stroker feels welcome to ride on my tandem. We can stay with the strongest teams in the club without too much effort. That's a big win in my book. Others have been raised differently and they struggle with this concept....
BTW, I didn't change cranks, the used Santana I bought came with 175/170 combo from the factory. Hmmmmmm, why does Santana do that. Can't imagine why.....
BTW, I didn't change cranks, the used Santana I bought came with 175/170 combo from the factory. Hmmmmmm, why does Santana do that. Can't imagine why.....
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#34
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"Power struggle", LOL. I never intimated any such idea. It's just that I'm old school. I was raised to accommodate women and give them comfort. I am strong enough to adjust my cadence so that my stroker feels welcome to ride on my tandem. We can stay with the strongest teams in the club without too much effort. That's a big win in my book. Others have been raised differently and they struggle with this concept....
BTW, I didn't change cranks, the used Santana I bought came with 175/170 combo from the factory. Hmmmmmm, why does Santana do that. Can't imagine why.....
BTW, I didn't change cranks, the used Santana I bought came with 175/170 combo from the factory. Hmmmmmm, why does Santana do that. Can't imagine why.....
Santana does this to accommodate different rider sizes, but doesn't address the cadence issue. If you can spend the rest of your tandeming tenure riding at a cadence rate well below (or above) ideal, then more power to you. But that probably isn't a solution for the majority of riders. I wouldn't expect my stoker to do so; I don't imagine she'd expect me to do same. This discussion aims to find an equitable solution for both parties. It has nothing to do with "being a man," chivalry or however else you want to define it.
Let me share a related story. My college roommate trained and raced for years riding 180mm cranks. In hindsight, it never felt quite right. In fact, well into his racing career, he suffered a somewhat unique injury. His quadricep tendon actually pulled a piece of bone off his femur at his knee. I'm not exactly sure this is what happened, but it's close. He recovered and continued training and racing. Many years later, he took advantage of a comprehensive bike fitting and discovered the crank lengths he was using were FAR shorter than they should be. His ideal crank length ended up being something like 197mm. Now, many might assume a 17mm difference in length isn't much. Well, I can tell you that it's a HUGE difference. I rode 170mm cranks briefly. I happened to be riding with a friend who has the same saddle-pedal distance I do. We switched bikes because he wanted me to feel how his rode. His bike had 175mm cranks and I could not believe how much longer they felt. It was like I was turning a circle twice the size of the one on my bike. All by a "mere" 5mm in crank length difference. So this friend of mine, after switching to 197mm cranks, rediscovered his love for riding and racing. It was like he had never ridden a bike properly. He said he felt so much better and that before he never realized how stifled his legs were in terms of strength, feel and fit. And shortly thereafter he realized his unique injury he suffered years earlier was almost certainly caused by training and racing hard on cranks WAY too short.
Well, asking a captain or stoker to simply accept a cadence rate above or below their ideal rate is kind of the same thing. If I were to embark on a long riding season of high mileage, but riding at 20 rpm lower than my ideal cadence, I'd be miserable and most likely suffer adverse knee effects. So achieving a sensible solution is far better than just "sucking it up" in my opinion. Especially given the expense many couples go to with full carbon tandems with carbon wheels and electronic shifting, sacrificing cadence seems like a completely unacceptable and untenable compromise.
#35
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Yup, Davinci tandems do that daVinci Designs - Performance Handbuilt Tandem Bicycles | Independent Coasting Drivetrain .. Drivetrain Info - da Vinci Designs
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Yup, Davinci tandems do that daVinci Designs - Performance Handbuilt Tandem Bicycles | Independent Coasting Drivetrain .. Drivetrain Info - da Vinci Designs
Last edited by LV2TNDM; 07-11-18 at 05:18 PM.
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I am not 100% clear on what you are asking. On our DaVinci tandem, we can spin at different rates. Is that your question?
Your link provides information about the independent coasting system (ICS), not gearing. Even though the Sheldon Brown website states or implies DaVinci and Bilenky offer tandems with independent gearing, I don't see it on their websites. Bilenky does offer their Viewpoint, but this is only one model, a semi-recumbent tandem whose technology isn't available on traditional tandems. I can only find independent coasting. If anyone can find a link showing otherwise, I'm all ears.
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Opps, sorry for the triggering! In any case the idea that a weaker-sex, significant other doesn't want the stronger-sex types to accommodate their lesser physical abilities is interesting. I'm a door-holding, chair pulling kinda guy and I always get compliments from from the women I date, "So refreshing to be with a gentleman." is a typical comment. I wouldn't captain a tandem any other way and it works very well. Perhaps some of the new-age metro-types could do a little learning instead of blindly following the dogma....
As for crank length, longer cranks require faster foot speed compared to a shorter cranks for a given rpm and that does help the cadence mis-match. Crank length calculations that resolve optimum crank length using only the rider's physical parameters are silly.
As for crank length, longer cranks require faster foot speed compared to a shorter cranks for a given rpm and that does help the cadence mis-match. Crank length calculations that resolve optimum crank length using only the rider's physical parameters are silly.
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Opps, sorry for the triggering! In any case the idea that a weaker-sex, significant other doesn't want the stronger-sex types to accommodate their lesser physical abilities is interesting. I'm a door-holding, chair pulling kinda guy and I always get compliments from from the women I date, "So refreshing to be with a gentleman." is a typical comment. I wouldn't captain a tandem any other way and it works very well. Perhaps some of the new-age metro-types could do a little learning instead of blindly following the dogma....
As for crank length, longer cranks require faster foot speed compared to a shorter cranks for a given rpm and that does help the cadence mis-match. Crank length calculations that resolve optimum crank length using only the rider's physical parameters are silly.
As for crank length, longer cranks require faster foot speed compared to a shorter cranks for a given rpm and that does help the cadence mis-match. Crank length calculations that resolve optimum crank length using only the rider's physical parameters are silly.
*looks at some users post history*
Oh nevermind. Welcome to the ignore list.
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To clarify, this is not about a power struggle between captain and stoker (as I'm pretty sure I made clear earlier). It's about how best to deal with significant physical differences causing problems.
If I could painlessly (and effectively) pedal uphill at 75 rpm, and get us there, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Likewise, if my wife could pedal at 95 rpm, and put down power, she'd be happy to do it. We're not fighting; we're trying to solve a systemic problem!
If I could painlessly (and effectively) pedal uphill at 75 rpm, and get us there, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Likewise, if my wife could pedal at 95 rpm, and put down power, she'd be happy to do it. We're not fighting; we're trying to solve a systemic problem!
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Santana does this to accommodate different rider sizes, but doesn't address the cadence issue. If you can spend the rest of your tandeming tenure riding at a cadence rate well below (or above) ideal, then more power to you. But that probably isn't a solution for the majority of riders. I wouldn't expect my stoker to do so; I don't imagine she'd expect me to do same. This discussion aims to find an equitable solution for both parties. It has nothing to do with "being a man," chivalry or however else you want to define it.
Let me share a related story. My college roommate trained and raced for years riding 180mm cranks. In hindsight, it never felt quite right. In fact, well into his racing career, he suffered a somewhat unique injury. His quadricep tendon actually pulled a piece of bone off his femur at his knee. I'm not exactly sure this is what happened, but it's close. He recovered and continued training and racing. Many years later, he took advantage of a comprehensive bike fitting and discovered the crank lengths he was using were FAR shorter than they should be. His ideal crank length ended up being something like 197mm. Now, many might assume a 17mm difference in length isn't much. Well, I can tell you that it's a HUGE difference. I rode 170mm cranks briefly. I happened to be riding with a friend who has the same saddle-pedal distance I do. We switched bikes because he wanted me to feel how his rode. His bike had 175mm cranks and I could not believe how much longer they felt. It was like I was turning a circle twice the size of the one on my bike. All by a "mere" 5mm in crank length difference. So this friend of mine, after switching to 197mm cranks, rediscovered his love for riding and racing. It was like he had never ridden a bike properly. He said he felt so much better and that before he never realized how stifled his legs were in terms of strength, feel and fit. And shortly thereafter he realized his unique injury he suffered years earlier was almost certainly caused by training and racing hard on cranks WAY too short.
Well, asking a captain or stoker to simply accept a cadence rate above or below their ideal rate is kind of the same thing. If I were to embark on a long riding season of high mileage, but riding at 20 rpm lower than my ideal cadence, I'd be miserable and most likely suffer adverse knee effects. So achieving a sensible solution is far better than just "sucking it up" in my opinion. Especially given the expense many couples go to with full carbon tandems with carbon wheels and electronic shifting, sacrificing cadence seems like a completely unacceptable and untenable compromise.
Let me share a related story. My college roommate trained and raced for years riding 180mm cranks. In hindsight, it never felt quite right. In fact, well into his racing career, he suffered a somewhat unique injury. His quadricep tendon actually pulled a piece of bone off his femur at his knee. I'm not exactly sure this is what happened, but it's close. He recovered and continued training and racing. Many years later, he took advantage of a comprehensive bike fitting and discovered the crank lengths he was using were FAR shorter than they should be. His ideal crank length ended up being something like 197mm. Now, many might assume a 17mm difference in length isn't much. Well, I can tell you that it's a HUGE difference. I rode 170mm cranks briefly. I happened to be riding with a friend who has the same saddle-pedal distance I do. We switched bikes because he wanted me to feel how his rode. His bike had 175mm cranks and I could not believe how much longer they felt. It was like I was turning a circle twice the size of the one on my bike. All by a "mere" 5mm in crank length difference. So this friend of mine, after switching to 197mm cranks, rediscovered his love for riding and racing. It was like he had never ridden a bike properly. He said he felt so much better and that before he never realized how stifled his legs were in terms of strength, feel and fit. And shortly thereafter he realized his unique injury he suffered years earlier was almost certainly caused by training and racing hard on cranks WAY too short.
Well, asking a captain or stoker to simply accept a cadence rate above or below their ideal rate is kind of the same thing. If I were to embark on a long riding season of high mileage, but riding at 20 rpm lower than my ideal cadence, I'd be miserable and most likely suffer adverse knee effects. So achieving a sensible solution is far better than just "sucking it up" in my opinion. Especially given the expense many couples go to with full carbon tandems with carbon wheels and electronic shifting, sacrificing cadence seems like a completely unacceptable and untenable compromise.
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You can't have that system on a tandem with traditional geometry, because the cranks or feet would bump into each other. The Counterpoint design works, and my wife and I tried one. The captain is in the back and sits upright. The stoker is in front and is recumbent. Because the cranks are so far apart, they can go at different rates. The stoker's crank is attached to the drivetrain with a five-speed freewheel which provides more than enough difference from the captain's cadence. The stoker can also coast while the captain pedals.
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Is this true? If so, that means on all DaVinci tandems, if the stoker has a slower cadence, it makes no difference whatsoever whether the stoker is pedaling or coasting since there is no power gain from the stoker pedaling.
I think you have misread the other poster. Of course you can have IPS or ICS on 'traditional geometry' tandems. No foot bumping of any kind. IPS is exactly what all DaVinci tandems have, and when the IPS is offered as an option on other tandems. But there is no free lunch. On an IPS tandem the 'slower' cadence will not provide a proportionately reduced level of power to the drivetrain. The slower cadence will provide ZERO power to the drivetrain. But IPS sure is popular.
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It sounds to me like the solution is a very stiff tandem with the timing chain running between say a 36 in front and a 48 in back. Very stiff because the forces will be changing from in sync to opposed and back. A flexible frame will change feel through every cycle, one "cycle" being 12 pedal strokes for the captain in the above example.. (The Counterpoint tandems with the reclined stoker in front of many years ago would work very well here.) I've seen tandems where the stoker has their own derailleur so this is not a new concept.
I am not a tandem rider, just an engineer and long time bike rider who has been fascinated by them as machines. And I " get" some to the tandem issues as I have ridden road fix gears many, many miles. I like to joke with the tandems at Cycle Oregon that I am a captain from the waist up, stoker from the waist down and my bike is a tandem front and stoker drive train. (And the stoker frequently curses the captain for his complete refusal to change gears or coast!)
Ben
I am not a tandem rider, just an engineer and long time bike rider who has been fascinated by them as machines. And I " get" some to the tandem issues as I have ridden road fix gears many, many miles. I like to joke with the tandems at Cycle Oregon that I am a captain from the waist up, stoker from the waist down and my bike is a tandem front and stoker drive train. (And the stoker frequently curses the captain for his complete refusal to change gears or coast!)
Ben
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#46
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Simple question: My wife is 5'4" tall, with proportional legs. She has a 175 crank on her single bike, and a 170 crank on the tandem.
Would replacing the 170 on the tandem, with something shorter, perhaps help her spin faster (and perhaps help with limiting body movement when pedaling fast)?
Would replacing the 170 on the tandem, with something shorter, perhaps help her spin faster (and perhaps help with limiting body movement when pedaling fast)?
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Sad, but true. It's no different from when you switch to a lower gear that you need to spin faster to 'catch'. You either spin fast enough to engage the gear or maybe the bike slows to the speed at which your cadence is contributing power, or you just flail away. The tandem with IPS and a strong Captain never slows to the speed that the Stoker can 'catch'. However, some IPS systems allow the Stoker to change gears independently and a committed Stoker could select a gear that allows them to feel pedal resistance at any reasonable cadence.
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Simple question: My wife is 5'4" tall, with proportional legs. She has a 175 crank on her single bike, and a 170 crank on the tandem.
Would replacing the 170 on the tandem, with something shorter, perhaps help her spin faster (and perhaps help with limiting body movement when pedaling fast)?
Would replacing the 170 on the tandem, with something shorter, perhaps help her spin faster (and perhaps help with limiting body movement when pedaling fast)?
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I ran this by da Vinci and received the following response:
"On our tandem, the person pedaling at a slower cadence is not contributing, nor are they robbing power from the other rider. On a traditional tandem, if one person does not keep up, the other rider is pulling there(sic) legs around and being robbed of power. Todd Shusterman"
"On our tandem, the person pedaling at a slower cadence is not contributing, nor are they robbing power from the other rider. On a traditional tandem, if one person does not keep up, the other rider is pulling there(sic) legs around and being robbed of power. Todd Shusterman"
I think you have misread the other poster. Of course you can have IPS or ICS on 'traditional geometry' tandems. No foot bumping of any kind. IPS is exactly what all DaVinci tandems have, and when the IPS is offered as an option on other tandems. But there is no free lunch. On an IPS tandem the 'slower' cadence will not provide a proportionately reduced level of power to the drivetrain. The slower cadence will provide ZERO power to the drivetrain. But IPS sure is popular.
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We're running up against a problem we really hadn't anticipated, and I'm hoping we don't have to reinvent this wheel; any help would be much appreciated.
We're really enjoying the tandem, and my wife is working hard to up her game to contribute more than 1/3 of the total power. Obviously, I don't really need a lot of help for level or downhill portions, but uphill on a tandem is not a lot of fun (and I'm a guy who enjoys charging up a hill on my half-bike), so I can use all the help she can give on the uphill portions.
When I'm going up a hill (or, indeed, when I'm working hard even on level ground) my cadence can go quite high, well into the 90s. On a long ride where I'm putting in a fairly maximal effort on my half-bike, I'll average 85-88rpm; when riding by herself, my wife will be in the low-to-mid 70s.
She's happy to spin as fast as I want, but she literally is doing all she can do to move her pedals at 98rpm; she cannot apply significant force to the pedal at cadence above 90. And I need the high cadence to comfortably put down high power.
We'll be experimenting on local long, fairly steep hills to see if perhaps we can comfortably slog up a hill at 85rpm (I don't mind going slowly, as long as it's fast enough to not fall over); we think that she'll be able to contribute meaningfully at that cadence.
Any other suggestions?
Thanks!
Mark
We're really enjoying the tandem, and my wife is working hard to up her game to contribute more than 1/3 of the total power. Obviously, I don't really need a lot of help for level or downhill portions, but uphill on a tandem is not a lot of fun (and I'm a guy who enjoys charging up a hill on my half-bike), so I can use all the help she can give on the uphill portions.
When I'm going up a hill (or, indeed, when I'm working hard even on level ground) my cadence can go quite high, well into the 90s. On a long ride where I'm putting in a fairly maximal effort on my half-bike, I'll average 85-88rpm; when riding by herself, my wife will be in the low-to-mid 70s.
She's happy to spin as fast as I want, but she literally is doing all she can do to move her pedals at 98rpm; she cannot apply significant force to the pedal at cadence above 90. And I need the high cadence to comfortably put down high power.
We'll be experimenting on local long, fairly steep hills to see if perhaps we can comfortably slog up a hill at 85rpm (I don't mind going slowly, as long as it's fast enough to not fall over); we think that she'll be able to contribute meaningfully at that cadence.
Any other suggestions?
Thanks!
Mark
Over the last 10 years, we have both done a lot of motor work on the track chasing a motor cycle around on fixed gear bikes. Motor efforts are a great way to develop leg speed both by riding behind the motor in the draft and attacking the motor to put in more power at higher speed.
At the other extreme of the spectrum is low cadence work. We both do a lot of low cadence work riding a road or TT bike in a large gear on flat terrain and maintain the cadence below 60 rpm. This drill builds muscle fiber recruitment, strength and neurology.
For your wife, her problem at higher cadence probably is underpinned by lack of strength and neurology. Something to try is to do some low cadence work on her road bike to build strength and get the feeling of applying torque throughout the pedal stroke. When on the tandem at higher cadences, she may find that her neurology is able to fire the muscles to keep up and produce more power. You can do low cadence work with her on the tandem.
In 1980, we got our first tandem and the pedals were 90 degrees out of phase. We learned to ride it that way and we have not changed ever since. Although I changed the configuration to stoker leading by 90 degrees. That way she cannot ride my power. This keeps the stoker in the game at all times. We ride with pedal power meters so that we each have power. My stoker focuses on power production. In our last race, she rode tempo power with VO2 power on the climbs for 55Km. I provided whatever power was necessary above that. So give the stoker something to do other than worry about keeping up with your cadence or fretting about her lack of power or whatever may be in her head. Make her experience totally positive.
With respect to high cadence and effectiveness, there is a certain amount of energy required to lift the weight of ones leg as the pedal rises. The faster one spins per MPH the more energy one uses to lift the legs. That means lower cadence uses less energy per mile. However, low cadence and high torque can cause fatigue and for long tours or stage races, higher cadence generally produces less fatigue. A couple of years ago, Team Sky was trying to slow down Froome’s TT cadence because they thought he would be faster at a lower cadence. You may want to take a play out of the Sky playbook.
So we are back to the tandem dilemma. Syncing up the teams cadence so that a couple can enjoy a day of cycling together. It only took us from 1980 to our race last month to finally sync up and have a great week of chainless cycling. And we produced a lot of speed without a lot of power. So getting a tandem team totally in synch pays speed dividends. Hopefully, you will synch up sooner than we did. Although, I think the 10,000 hour rule applies. Stick with it.