Santana Z coupler
04-03-13, 10:26 PM
#26
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The S and S couplings used in Paketa frames are titanium and are epoxied into the tubes, which avoids the potential problem of galvanic corrosion since there's no metal-on-metal contact, nor is there any way for air (oxygen, that is) or moisture to get into the bonding zone. I thought long and hard about this issue when designing the couplings (including the assembly process into the frame) for our bikes. They're 100% over-designed relative to the tensile strength of the magnesium tubes they're attached to for added safety. They won't corrode, and they won't break--by design.
I believe Santana is one of the few companies that will build a S&S aluminum tandem. I would guess the reason is corrosion where the aluminum touches the steel. I suspect the issue is in the manufacture of that combination without proper segregation of the metals and probably does not carry over to Santana's other bikes. Note the position of Magnesium which makes it more of a problem than aluminum where it touches other metals.
Table From wikipeida at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
Galvanic compatibility The compatibility of two different metals may be predicted by consideration of their "Anodic Index". This parameter is a measure of the electrochemical voltage that will be developed between the metal and gold. To find the relative voltage of a pair of metals it is only required to substract their Anodic Indexes.[SUP][9]
[/SUP]
For normal environments, such as storage in warehouses or non-temperature and humidity controlled environments, there should not be more than 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For controlled environments, in which temperature and humidity are controlled, 0.50 V can be tolerated. For harsh environments, such as outdoors, high humidity, and salt environments, there should be not more than 0.15 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For example; gold - silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable [SUP][10][/SUP][SUP][page needed]
[/SUP]
Often when design requires that dissimilar metals come in contact, the galvanic compatibility is managed by finishes and plating. The finishing and plating selected facilitates the dissimilar materials being in contact and protect the base materials from corrosion
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH]Metal[/TH]
[TH]Index (V)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]Most Cathodic[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gold, solid and plated, Gold-platinum alloy[/TD]
[TD]-0.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rhodium plated on silver-plated copper[/TD]
[TD]-0.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Silver, solid or plated; monel metal. High nickel-copper alloys[/TD]
[TD]-0.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nickel, solid or plated, titanium an s alloys, Monel[/TD]
[TD]-0.30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Copper, solid or plated; low brasses or bronzes; silver solder; German silvery high copper-nickel alloys; nickel-chromium alloys[/TD]
[TD]-0.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brass and bronzes
[/TD]
[TD]-0.40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]High brasses and bronzes[/TD]
[TD]-0.45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels[/TD]
[TD]-0.50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels
[/TD]
[TD]-0.60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tin-plate; tin-lead solder[/TD]
[TD]-0.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lead, solid or plated; high lead alloys[/TD]
[TD]-0.70[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2000 series wrought aluminum[/TD]
[TD]-0.75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Iron, wrought, gray or malleable, plain carbon and low alloy steels[/TD]
[TD]-0.85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aluminum, wrought alloys other than 2000 series aluminum, cast alloys of the silicon type
[/TD]
[TD]-0.90[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aluminum, cast alloys other than silicon type, cadmium, plated and chromate[/TD]
[TD]-0.95[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hot-dip-zinc plate; galvanized steel[/TD]
[TD]-1.20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Zinc, wrought; zinc-base die-casting alloys; zinc plated[/TD]
[TD]-1.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Magnesium & magnesium-base alloys, cast or wrought
[/TD]
[TD]-1.75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beryllium[/TD]
[TD]-1.85
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Table From wikipeida at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
Galvanic compatibility The compatibility of two different metals may be predicted by consideration of their "Anodic Index". This parameter is a measure of the electrochemical voltage that will be developed between the metal and gold. To find the relative voltage of a pair of metals it is only required to substract their Anodic Indexes.[SUP][9]
[/SUP]
For normal environments, such as storage in warehouses or non-temperature and humidity controlled environments, there should not be more than 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For controlled environments, in which temperature and humidity are controlled, 0.50 V can be tolerated. For harsh environments, such as outdoors, high humidity, and salt environments, there should be not more than 0.15 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For example; gold - silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable [SUP][10][/SUP][SUP][page needed]
[/SUP]
Often when design requires that dissimilar metals come in contact, the galvanic compatibility is managed by finishes and plating. The finishing and plating selected facilitates the dissimilar materials being in contact and protect the base materials from corrosion
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH]Metal[/TH]
[TH]Index (V)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]Most Cathodic[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gold, solid and plated, Gold-platinum alloy[/TD]
[TD]-0.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rhodium plated on silver-plated copper[/TD]
[TD]-0.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Silver, solid or plated; monel metal. High nickel-copper alloys[/TD]
[TD]-0.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nickel, solid or plated, titanium an s alloys, Monel[/TD]
[TD]-0.30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Copper, solid or plated; low brasses or bronzes; silver solder; German silvery high copper-nickel alloys; nickel-chromium alloys[/TD]
[TD]-0.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brass and bronzes
[/TD]
[TD]-0.40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]High brasses and bronzes[/TD]
[TD]-0.45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels[/TD]
[TD]-0.50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium type corrosion-resistant steels
[/TD]
[TD]-0.60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tin-plate; tin-lead solder[/TD]
[TD]-0.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lead, solid or plated; high lead alloys[/TD]
[TD]-0.70[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2000 series wrought aluminum[/TD]
[TD]-0.75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Iron, wrought, gray or malleable, plain carbon and low alloy steels[/TD]
[TD]-0.85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aluminum, wrought alloys other than 2000 series aluminum, cast alloys of the silicon type
[/TD]
[TD]-0.90[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aluminum, cast alloys other than silicon type, cadmium, plated and chromate[/TD]
[TD]-0.95[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hot-dip-zinc plate; galvanized steel[/TD]
[TD]-1.20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Zinc, wrought; zinc-base die-casting alloys; zinc plated[/TD]
[TD]-1.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Magnesium & magnesium-base alloys, cast or wrought
[/TD]
[TD]-1.75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beryllium[/TD]
[TD]-1.85
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
04-04-13, 05:06 AM
#27
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I remember when some of the folks who bought tandems that needed Ti "couplers" for their Ti or composite frames were surprised to find the coupler nuts weren't Ti, not having realized it was only the lugs that were either bonded or welded to the frame tubes that were Ti.
04-04-13, 05:01 PM
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Squared/rectangular boob tubes were utilized by Matt Assenmacher as early as the late 1970s on his custom tandems, so C'dale's idea was nothing new.
Santana keeps a captive audience with its 'innovations' like oversized headsets. 160mm rear dropouts, perfect-10 shifting and their Z-couplers.
Hey, another way to create repeat business and happy 'tana owner!.
Santana keeps a captive audience with its 'innovations' like oversized headsets. 160mm rear dropouts, perfect-10 shifting and their Z-couplers.
Hey, another way to create repeat business and happy 'tana owner!.
04-05-13, 12:10 AM
#29
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That may have been true 10 or 20 years ago, but today the company appears to have serious quality problems. I am on sample #2 of their aluminium/scandium frame set (see upthread for the coupled reject).
Last night, I removed the bottom bracket eccentric and when extracting it from the frame, paint chips came sprinkling down from the shell. On the port side of the BB shell, the paint is delaminating from the side wall. The starboard side appears to have less of a problem for now. But it shows off the lame, sloppy job that was done on the entire area. These guys don't even know how to prep and paint a frame!
There is no excuse for this on a $5700 bike! I have seen better coating on a Kmart Huffy.
As far as I am concerned, this is a new bike. It was delivered to the dealer in October of last year and we have been riding it since November, about 700 miles. I can only wonder what idiotic excuse they would proffer to make it my fault. I am getting new cranks to replace the garbage it came with and now I am seriously thinking about having the stoker BBS faced. I truly don't trust these clowns.
Santana can come up with as many whiz-bang, has-been "innovations" as they want. But, if they can't even handle the basics, like painting a friggin frame, they deserve to fade into irrelevancy.
Last night, I removed the bottom bracket eccentric and when extracting it from the frame, paint chips came sprinkling down from the shell. On the port side of the BB shell, the paint is delaminating from the side wall. The starboard side appears to have less of a problem for now. But it shows off the lame, sloppy job that was done on the entire area. These guys don't even know how to prep and paint a frame!
There is no excuse for this on a $5700 bike! I have seen better coating on a Kmart Huffy.
As far as I am concerned, this is a new bike. It was delivered to the dealer in October of last year and we have been riding it since November, about 700 miles. I can only wonder what idiotic excuse they would proffer to make it my fault. I am getting new cranks to replace the garbage it came with and now I am seriously thinking about having the stoker BBS faced. I truly don't trust these clowns.
Santana can come up with as many whiz-bang, has-been "innovations" as they want. But, if they can't even handle the basics, like painting a friggin frame, they deserve to fade into irrelevancy.
04-05-13, 05:54 AM
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That may have been true 10 or 20 years ago, but today the company appears to have serious quality problems. These guys don't even know how to prep and paint a frame!
There is no excuse for this on a $5700 bike! Santana can come up with as many whiz-bang, has-been "innovations" as they want. But, if they can't even handle the basics, like painting a friggin frame, they deserve to fade into irrelevancy.
There is no excuse for this on a $5700 bike! Santana can come up with as many whiz-bang, has-been "innovations" as they want. But, if they can't even handle the basics, like painting a friggin frame, they deserve to fade into irrelevancy.
04-05-13, 12:01 PM
#31
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Yes, the nuts are stainless steel, as Ti-on-Ti threads present a serious galling problem--see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling for a description. We've dealt with the weight issue by removing as much material as possible from the nuts in the first place--take a look at the low-profile design of the couplings on a Paketa tandem, and you can see there's not much left that one could remove.
Just curious, are the coupler nuts still stainless?
I remember when some of the folks who bought tandems that needed Ti "couplers" for their Ti or composite frames were surprised to find the coupler nuts weren't Ti, not having realized it was only the lugs that were either bonded or welded to the frame tubes that were Ti.
I remember when some of the folks who bought tandems that needed Ti "couplers" for their Ti or composite frames were surprised to find the coupler nuts weren't Ti, not having realized it was only the lugs that were either bonded or welded to the frame tubes that were Ti.
04-05-13, 01:11 PM
#32
Senior Member
Santana's line was to deny that they could possibly build a bad frame and blame the customer.
"You're not tightening the nuts enough". Wrong. I always used an old 10" Hozan ring spanner to torque the nuts instead of the wimpy half-sized tool they shipped with the bike. "Your letting sports drink drip on the frame".
Wrong again! Stoker carries water or unsweetened iced tea in her bottles. San Diego is nearly a desert. Anything that drips, dries almost instantly. Too much other stupidity to quote.
Santana offered to re-manufacture the diagonal tube, which had the problem at both ends, but stick me with the cost of the bead blast and repaint job for the entire frame. Stoker and I figured they don't know what the hell they are doing re aluminium + couplers and decided to cut our losses, (We were riding the Scandium as a loaner already). So we are out the differential on the coupler upgrade. f you could find an actual copy of the Santana warranty, that might be an interesting read.
the end, it was the bike shop owner who stepped up and swapped the Scandium for the defective frame. It was his demo model and we traded all of the wear items (wheels, chain set, brakes, etc.). He even swapped the Santana travel case for a Bike Pro case he had on hand. He's stuck with covering the "warranty" work. But he thinks he can turn a modest profit when the frame comes back.
The Scandium is riding fine. The front BB is shot (Octalink cranks on a new 2012 bicycle? Seriously?!!) and when I found out that the only replacement BB is ultimately sourced through Santana, I decided I will be replacing my cranks with FSA SL-K Lights, out of spite.
That is Rolf, the 2005 BMW K1200LT. The poor thing has been languishing as a garage queen since my stoker's new found passion in bicycling. Over 20K miles two-up. But, since we got the bikes (the other is a Ventana ECdM), 0 miles. She has forsaken 2-wheeled motorsport for human power. I understand you are also a BMW rider, TandemGeek.
"You're not tightening the nuts enough". Wrong. I always used an old 10" Hozan ring spanner to torque the nuts instead of the wimpy half-sized tool they shipped with the bike. "Your letting sports drink drip on the frame".
Wrong again! Stoker carries water or unsweetened iced tea in her bottles. San Diego is nearly a desert. Anything that drips, dries almost instantly. Too much other stupidity to quote.
Santana offered to re-manufacture the diagonal tube, which had the problem at both ends, but stick me with the cost of the bead blast and repaint job for the entire frame. Stoker and I figured they don't know what the hell they are doing re aluminium + couplers and decided to cut our losses, (We were riding the Scandium as a loaner already). So we are out the differential on the coupler upgrade. f you could find an actual copy of the Santana warranty, that might be an interesting read.
the end, it was the bike shop owner who stepped up and swapped the Scandium for the defective frame. It was his demo model and we traded all of the wear items (wheels, chain set, brakes, etc.). He even swapped the Santana travel case for a Bike Pro case he had on hand. He's stuck with covering the "warranty" work. But he thinks he can turn a modest profit when the frame comes back.The Scandium is riding fine. The front BB is shot (Octalink cranks on a new 2012 bicycle? Seriously?!!) and when I found out that the only replacement BB is ultimately sourced through Santana, I decided I will be replacing my cranks with FSA SL-K Lights, out of spite.
That is Rolf, the 2005 BMW K1200LT. The poor thing has been languishing as a garage queen since my stoker's new found passion in bicycling. Over 20K miles two-up. But, since we got the bikes (the other is a Ventana ECdM), 0 miles. She has forsaken 2-wheeled motorsport for human power. I understand you are also a BMW rider, TandemGeek.
I am pretty sure I have not heard of that happening previously with any of the top 5 or so 2bike builders (but I always wondered why the couplers didn't break in general or rot out (aka rust aka oxidize) due to the dissimilar metals usually involved).
I don't have a dog in the fight, but I doubt that the facts in hand calls for a mass of OEM specific negative conclusions, implications for the companies hidden motives, how much the owners wife weights, etc., so what are we going there? It reads as silly.
I do see where a dealer might not alway get immediate satisfaction from the factory when they call in with a complaint, vice fully following the specific procedures required in the warrantee -- Which normally calls for the potentially defective item to be returned to the factory for their analysis and their resolution, vice the end users conclusions no matter how obvious the issue is or how smart the buyer is about bikes.
I am not aware of many factories which would feel they need to resolve a major defect over the phone. Not? Ok, so lets call Honda and tell them that new car we bought 2 months ago is flat broke, so please have someone bring a new one to my house right away... Sure, I can see that happening! And a top of the line tandem can be about the same cost as a lower end car...so it is not peanuts.
The LBS "dealer" did the right thing by "loaning" a "driver" to get the customer on his way and in getting the arrangements made to send the defective item back to the factory as required. The dealer did good and as he is quoted; He expects he may turn a buck on the transaction. So all is good or about as good as could be expected!
FWIW
/K
04-05-13, 03:56 PM
#33
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This seems to sum up the sentiment of many industry watchers and former Santana owners. There's still a strong loyal following, but I'd guess the ownership age demographic is heavily skewed to to the left and reflects the market presence they used to enjoy when many folks bought-into the brand.
Last edited by TeamTi700; 04-05-13 at 04:23 PM.
04-05-13, 06:16 PM
#35
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I'm saddened to see the negative comments on Santana. We don't own any of their bikes, but have come to know Bill and Jan through a couple of their tours which we thoroughly enjoyed. They strike me as decent, earnest, hard working people who have done a lot for tandeming over the years. Too bad. Reputations are precious things. Once damaged it can take forever to repair.
04-05-13, 06:52 PM
#36
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I'm saddened to see the negative comments on Santana. We don't own any of their bikes, but have come to know Bill and Jan through a couple of their tours which we thoroughly enjoyed. They strike me as decent, earnest, hard working people who have done a lot for tandeming over the years. Too bad. Reputations are precious things. Once damaged it can take forever to repair.However, when I ran into problems with my Sweet 16's I was quite shocked at how I was treated. And that's going all of the way to the top.
Reputations are indeed precious things. And things read on the internet must always be treated with some suspicion. But in the case of Santana, there seems to be quite a few of us who have had our problems over the years. And those stories are not just on the internet. We have attended the Indiana Tandem Rally, Midwest Tandem Rally, and the Walloon Lake Tandem Rally each of the last 3 years. It seems that any conversation about Santana at these events ends up with discussions about their customer service.
If many of your current customers wouldn't recommend your product, how do you plan to bring in new customers?
04-08-13, 04:16 PM
#37
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Have known Bil andd Jan since 1978. Yup, they are nice folks.
Although Bill can be obsessive about 'tana being the only tandem out there that's a 'real' tandem
Back in '78 at a tandem rally (Kangaroo Bags Rally in CA) Bill was walking around perusing/inspecting other brands at the event. Back then there we're less than a handful of different brands.
He saw our custom built Assenmacher and asked if he could pick it up. It weighed a then incredible 34 lbs while 'tanas where still a hefty 48 lbs with 48 spoke wheels. Said he: "It'll break."
As usual, Bill was right; frame broke at 50,000 miles and again at 56,000 miles. Rode that great tandem 'til we logged 64,000 miles on it and then sold it for almost we hat we had paid for it.
Don't think there are too many 'tanas out there that have logged have logged 50,000+ miles.
Saw a new 'tana (back in the early 80s) with a factory fork that broke just before descending a big hill. Lucklily the couple had stoppped on top of the hill for a break when fork issue was spotted..
Owner could not get any attention/reply until he threatened a law suit; finally his attorney settled for a new and upgraded bike.
Have heard other customer service stories, both good and bad.
Have ridden over 30 brands/models of tandems since 1975, including several Santanas.
Have never owned one.
We prefer smaller builders that pay more attention to building details.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Although Bill can be obsessive about 'tana being the only tandem out there that's a 'real' tandem
Back in '78 at a tandem rally (Kangaroo Bags Rally in CA) Bill was walking around perusing/inspecting other brands at the event. Back then there we're less than a handful of different brands.
He saw our custom built Assenmacher and asked if he could pick it up. It weighed a then incredible 34 lbs while 'tanas where still a hefty 48 lbs with 48 spoke wheels. Said he: "It'll break."
As usual, Bill was right; frame broke at 50,000 miles and again at 56,000 miles. Rode that great tandem 'til we logged 64,000 miles on it and then sold it for almost we hat we had paid for it.
Don't think there are too many 'tanas out there that have logged have logged 50,000+ miles.
Saw a new 'tana (back in the early 80s) with a factory fork that broke just before descending a big hill. Lucklily the couple had stoppped on top of the hill for a break when fork issue was spotted..
Owner could not get any attention/reply until he threatened a law suit; finally his attorney settled for a new and upgraded bike.
Have heard other customer service stories, both good and bad.
Have ridden over 30 brands/models of tandems since 1975, including several Santanas.
Have never owned one.
We prefer smaller builders that pay more attention to building details.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
04-12-13, 09:42 AM
#38
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We just purchased a new Santana Spirit (new name for Arriva Niobium + upgraded components) with the Z couplers. When I was researching this bike in Nov, I spoke directly with a Santana rep (Steve ?), and he was telling me about the new couplers. His main selling points were cosmetic (flush profile), and ease of assembly (you need no special tools, only 2 allens).
Funny thing - when he looked for a frame in my size, it turned out they had one in stock w the old S&S couplers. Too bad, I was already sold on the new Z couplers!
He was gracious about it and was happy to sell us a special order frame w/ Z's but I'll bet he wished he'd kept his mouth shut!
We've had the bike 2 months. Only used the couplers once just to try out. We like the look, workmanship seems fine (steel frame, no metal conflicts), and I appreciate needing only standard allens.
Having never used couplers before, I was pretty confused about the exact technique for assembling/disassembling.
What is the best sequence to break one of these frames down and reassemble? A particularly tricky part is getting to the boom tube couplers. Those allens are on the bottom, and with the retaining rings, it was hard to figure out the exact sequence.
Funny thing - when he looked for a frame in my size, it turned out they had one in stock w the old S&S couplers. Too bad, I was already sold on the new Z couplers!
He was gracious about it and was happy to sell us a special order frame w/ Z's but I'll bet he wished he'd kept his mouth shut!
We've had the bike 2 months. Only used the couplers once just to try out. We like the look, workmanship seems fine (steel frame, no metal conflicts), and I appreciate needing only standard allens.
Having never used couplers before, I was pretty confused about the exact technique for assembling/disassembling.
What is the best sequence to break one of these frames down and reassemble? A particularly tricky part is getting to the boom tube couplers. Those allens are on the bottom, and with the retaining rings, it was hard to figure out the exact sequence.
04-12-13, 01:24 PM
#39
TKramer
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Having never used couplers before, I was pretty confused about the exact technique for assembling/disassembling.
What is the best sequence to break one of these frames down and reassemble? A particularly tricky part is getting to the boom tube couplers. Those allens are on the bottom, and with the retaining rings, it was hard to figure out the exact sequence.
What is the best sequence to break one of these frames down and reassemble? A particularly tricky part is getting to the boom tube couplers. Those allens are on the bottom, and with the retaining rings, it was hard to figure out the exact sequence.
Assembly was the reverse.
Not sure if the new Z's would allow enough play for the boom-tube-drop-out technique.
You should post some photos.
