fender1

More than likely they get the "raw" bikes from auctions. If your average cost is really cheap and you offer the customer a degree of input (color, braze-ons etc) and have good service, it is not hard to see why people pay more. I think what gets lost on a lot of people in the forum is that most people are looking for bikes to ride, not fix, not collect etc. Regardless of how much work I do on a flip, once the buyer agrees, pays and leaves it is the buyers property & responsibility. Livingston looks like a real business, not someone's basement.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

Some folks apparently really hate JRR Tolkien.

Its probably the damned Hobbits.

Ediblestarfish

mtnbke is responding with way more emotion and opinion than you can reason with.

Riv basically borrows things from old bikes that they think work well, and build it into new frames. Not really trying to imitate anything, just redoing what they think is worth re-doing. Not everyone agrees with what they do, but you're not forced to buy it.

Especially since it It's priced in today's dollar, today's labor (which is expensive). It's always better for utility and value to go for yesterday's stuff, but there's still people that want the new and shinny stuff and can afford it. J.Livingston is sort of a halfway point that splits the difference, which gives a new option.

I was looking for a bike for a couple years, not finding anything that I found comfy, satisfied my aesthetics, and was built around quality stuff. Finally did get a Rivendell, after test riding it for a bit and instantly liking it the most, of the many options open to me. Of course I'd like it more if I spent less, but it is what it is.

bigbossman 

For me, it was the first movie.

cudak888 

I'll attest to that. I've seen two Spectrum jobs full of dust particles under the basecoat.

-Kurt

nikkorod

I don't think the $400.00 is the standard set price. I think it is just for their savings calc. I did not see any price schedule on their site. My guess is those bikes spec out more like $800.00-$1000.00. For me that is way too much for a "re-purposed" MTB. Typical hipster dogooder non-sense. The amount of energy used to "re-purpose" them negates any recycling benefit. IMO those bikes are better melted down and sold back to the Chinese.

frantik

yeah melting down and shipping steel to china is a lot better use than just reusing them. high quality mtb frames from the 80s make great city bikes.. the geometry is already very close to cruisers since thats what mtbs are derived from, but with the high quality ones, the frames are much lighter.

nikkorod

I agree about the the nicer stuff, but my guess is that they are using anything.

Flying Merkel

Found (finally!) prices ranging from $350-$500. https://bendvelo.com/velonews/12/Shop...ngston-Bicycle.

Don't like the high handlebars. Upright positions cause fatigue when riding into a headwind. I use the front derailleur a lot when riding around town. Drop down from the large chainring to the middle at each light. Other than that, I can see the appeal if I wasn't inclined to build my own. The bikes I see are perty.

Not knowing who built my frame is a touch worrisome though.

frantik

with mtb cassettes you can get a low gear that doesn't require changing chainrings.. my 80s mtb is a 1x7 speed.. it's got a 46t chainring and the biggest cog in the back is 28t which is plenty low for flatland

mkeller234

Fine then, go buy your Waterford and drop it. What are you buying in a Waterford anyway, what are you going to get out of that bike that you couldn't get from, as you say, "a "real" 80s era bike made by a master Japanese builder". Don't you pay a premium for a Waterford? You don't think anyone buys a Waterford to be part of a prestigious community, perceived or real?

Has it even come up that Rivendell offer frames that ARE different than old frames. Sloping top tubes that place the bars higher, room for extra wide tires, etc.

Also, there are 5 Rivendell models that sell for around $1,000. Try paying that for a high end American custom.

GEEZ!

robtown

+1

They seem to be doing a service and even at $500, they aren't gouging the public. The bikes looked nice. Their bikes aren't for me but neither are Rivendell bikes. I don't begrudge either their market.

noglider 

I would definitely send people there if I were in the area. A bottom of the line bike shop bike is $400. That's the least you can spend on a fairly decent bike. For another $100 or so, you get something better in some ways.

mtnbke

Last time I checked you could get a completely custom Curtlo for around $800, heck can't you get a custom US built titanium Habenero for less than a grand?

I actually think the J.Livingston gig is a great idea. I think the flippers in C&V should be ashamed of themselves in many cases. While they will justify their "hours" spent on those bikes, in reality they just drive up the clearing prices of old bikes and actually prevent more people from getting cheap old bikes and fixing 'em up themselves. You can't find a descent name bike at a Yard sale or thrift store because ten different flippers have already cased the place.

However, J.Livingstone isn't just selling you that old crappy paint, those old crappy components. There actually is value added with their bike, unlike what the flippers give you. I don't see the $100 in value added for some grease and new cables/housing on a friction shifted bike. It didn't shift all that badly in the first place: It is FRICTION!

With the J.Livingstone you get a gorgeous paint job in your color, and all new components. You'd be surprised at some of the name builders with boutique shops today that were working for mass production steel bike builders in the US in the 80s/90s. Shocked actually...so would Grant, as he buys from a couple of 'em. If those builders are good enough now for Riv, what's wrong with 'em being good enough then for J.Livingstone?

More power to 'em. I hope that business model takes off. The real rip-off is what powder coaters are getting these days. Powder Coaters typically charge 10x more for bikes than for other customers in my area (Boulder County, CO). They know they can get it. Don't for a second try to argue that bicycles are more complicated to powder coat, until you've seen the engine parts that they are coating with recesses, negative shading (no powder), and multi color. J.Livingstone is actually a deal for what you are getting. Spectrum charges that just to powder YOUR frame.

hbok@mac.com

Why buy a Rivendell when you can get a good old bike cheaper on Craigslist? Well: there are people who like spending time on Craigslist looking for great old bikes which they will then restore to wonderfulness, and who also have the time and the knowledge to do it, and there are people who don't. Obviously, this is a list populated by the first sort of people: why on earth would anyone else hang out here? Equally obviously, Rivendell is aiming at the second group: people who don't have the time to watch Craigslist and eBay like a hawk, the mechanical competence to both know what they're buying (i.e., that it's good, that it doesn't have some horrible structural defect that will kill them, etc.) and to tune it up again, or the desire to do this. They just want to buy a good bike without a lot of fuss, I assume for the same reason that I buy clothes ready-made rather than growing my own flax and cotton.

It's not surprising to me that both groups find the other a bit odd. The vitriol is a bit perplexing, though.

Flying Merkel

The Diamondback Sorrento that I used as an example went to a woman who had not owned a bike in years. $125.00 for a refurbished bike that will give years of service is a good deal. Neither she or her husband had any interest or experience in buying a cheap bike and fixing it up. They surely didn't have a crank puller, cone wrenches, chain breaker, or trueing stand. The 3x7 indexed gears fired off shifts like cracking knuckles. Brakes could lock either wheel controlably. 100 mile test & tune is not going to happen on any store bought bike. Some folks don't care all that much for pretty paint. My buyers had the opportunity to buy a cheaper bike. They chose to go with a better value. Local bike shop would have charged about $200-$250.00 labor to do what I did.

Bought me a Univega Gran Turismo off a "knock the dust off" type of flipper. Got it for $40.00. He was sick of people coming by and wanting it in perfect condition. He had a whole garage full of bikes that had been saved from the scrap pile. The important word being SAVED.

It's called capitalism. Free market. Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. E Pluribus Flipper.

cudak888 

-Kurt

frantik

i don't see the value added.. i could just get it power coated myself and buy the parts from the internet. J. Livingstone should be ashamed of themselves.

anyways, back to rebuilding a bike from the ground up.. oh i mean "adding new grease and cables"...

robatsu

This is all true. I got a theory about GP/Riv, I call it the crazy old lady with 147 cats in her house theory. You see these stories all the time, neighbors complain about the stink, dead cats stacked up in the freezer, and the crazy old lady, to the extent that she talks, goes on about how the situation just got out of hand.

That is, nobody sets out to have 147 cats, some in varying stages of decomposition, in their house. It sorta creeps up on them.

I think things have crept up on Riv and the Internet has played a large part in this.

Back in the late 90's, Riv came out with their first stuff (Atlantis, then Ramboulliet, I believe), it was pretty sensible stuff. Little too much of the cutesy hokum for my tastes, but the bikes fit this sensible/utilitarian/lost paradigm stuff pretty well and they were, IIRC, somewhat more affordable.

I remember thinking at the time that I'd sure like to have one of those last keeper of the flame stuff, I used to get the Riv Reader. Even more significantly, there weren't nearly as many alternatives. I'm not a flea market/garage sale/classified ads kind of guy and the barriers to buying a satisfactory used bike were much higher. That's why people were putting them out w/the trash, giving away for $10, etc.

The barriers were just too high for most people. So if you wanted something classic, you were more likely hoping to find some new product at the shop. During this time, I just kept my old stuff running.

Riv then just had to compete against a hypothetical, the vast store of old classics in basements/garages really weren't coming to market. So they could do relatively nominal bikes that wouldn't have been too out of place in early 90's Bridgestone catalog.

But, the internet trade started catching on and people could ask as a practical matter, "Why not get the original stuff", since it became so much easier. And not just to get the stuff, but the information and materials to do the work from people like Sheldon Brown, etc.

So there is pressure for differentiation then, now that all this stuff is readily available, that Riv had been touting for 5-10 years. Remember, when Riv started off, there was a sense that lugged bikes, etc, had really gone the way of the buffalo, there were very few keepers of the flame other than pretty intense devotees.

So the rest of the story plays out, double top tubes and all, cats all over the place. I think they are proceeding from good intentions and their beliefs, but if you went back to 1997 as ghost of the bicycle future, GP then would probably have been a little surprised to see how things played out.

I'd always sorta wanted a Riv or something high end and custom Riv like. But then it is too dear for me to be wrenching on and abusing. Same reason I don't fool much w/the old Campy stuff, heck, lunch a C-Record pedal, man, that is a major tragedy. But it sure was fun when you could pick up bucketfuls of that stuff for a song.

Well, mtnbike took some flak for what he wrote. But he gets at something, and in some ways perhaps inadvertently. Cycling, needless to say, has a huge amount of elitism/cliquishness, trends & fashion. Lots of insider/outsider (phreds..) dynamics, etc. Lots of people with strong opinions. Naturally, then, when GP stands up and says here is the the true way and anyone who believes otherwise is a sucker for slick marketing, this steps on some toes. This further invites abuse when the official line changes about, say, level top tubes.

So he is kind of inviting abuse and follows the precept of there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Beyond that, the guy is hardly getting rich or creating a Trek-like empire (Trek started off as true believer hippies, one may recall). Some of the way people talk about them, it is like they are a monolithic Borg like Halliburton rather than a small shop, heck, I'd be surprised if they had 30 employees.

Entertaining show though, sometimes a little light comes out of the heat. If I were ever going to really throw down for a bike, I'd consider one of theirs, recently I sort of liked the club racer with clearances/eyelets that they did. But being a tightwad, I'd probably just look for an obscure framebuilder that I thought had prospects, again, the internet makes this sort of thing lots easier as well, another thorn in Riv's side.

ciocc_cat

Okay . . . so if Adolph Hitler said, "the sky is blue" (and it was), would you not believe him just because he was Hitler?

Grant is certainly highly opinionated, but (like it or not) much of what he says is true based on my own (39+ years) experience as a cyclist (and no, I'm NOT counting the years when I was a kid riding a Western Flyer, but rather my time as a day touring/club riding/USCF racing cyclist).

Having said that, I think the OP's doing an "apples and pork chops" thing with his post. (No offense, but IMHO not close enough to a rational comparison for oranges).

sonatageek

Humm, according to the web site the bikes get a new single ring crank (which in my mind is not better than having a mountain triple) and then is built up with a mixture of OLD and new parts. So they have a nice powder coat, but from a parts stand point that sounds pretty much like what one of those 'evil' flippers might do.

Around here the number of 'potential' bike flippers has gone through the roof. I call them 'potential' flippers as I have seen the same bikes advertised for weeks/months and swear with this one guy for a year. If a bike never sells, are you really a flipper? In reality the flipped bikes that sell (after a rehab and not a quick dusting and air in the tires) is considerably less then these freshly powder coated ones.

noglider 

Thank you, ciocc_cat. That was a good and succinct post.

Comparing used bikes in bad condition with used bikes in good running order with new bikes with fully reconditioned bikes? That's comparing apples with porkchops with space shuttles with political concepts!

mkeller234

Oh, I bet I know who you are talking about... Mr. "higher end hardcore tourer"

Poguemahone

Man, here I was hoping for a couple of pages discussing Richie's shoes (or at least his bike) and ya'll go off the rails.

You ain't gotta buy either one. I'm not sure on the ride qualities of the Rivendells, having never ridden one, but if one shows up in my el cheapo price range I'll likely build it up and ride it. Right now I doubt it,though. I like Waterfords and Serottas (at least the old steel ones) though.

Grant has his evangelists (I've met several), though, and I don't doubt they talk people into bikes they shouldn't be riding--just like the folks at the LBS tend to do. The J.Livingstons seem to be geared towards folks who want a neighbourhood steed, not nuts like us. Which is fine. We're not their market.

mkeller234

I've only seen one Rivendell product in person, I really liked it. It was a 650b "Saluki".