rustymetal

Last summer I picked up a super clean but way too small for me Nishiki International from the late 70's or so.
I've been looking around for a suitable frame to build up a bike that fits me.
I spotted this on CL: https://southjersey.craigslist.org/b...135926113.html

I was was wondering how many of the Nishiki components might fit the Trek frame set?
The Nishiki was cheap because it was so small, only a 21" frame, the guy couldn't give it away and I got it cheap enough that I couldn't pass it up.

thumpism 

You posted the "manage" link, which requires a login. Is this the frame? I'd expect nearly everything would fit except maybe the seatpost, and the brake reach might be wrong for the wheels on this frame depending on the Nishiki's parts.

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/b...135926113.html

rustymetal

That's the one, I originally saw it posted over in the "looking for one of these" forum here. Any idea what seat post the Trek might take? The Nishiki has a 26.6mm SR seat post in it. I'm not sure what the Trek would use? The seller said its 'at least 27mm, but couldn't be exact. Its about an hour ride from me here to go get it but its been the only quality frame I've seen around here. I've been watching eBay as well and everything there goes way too high for my budget on this.

I didn't think about the brake cables and such but cables are cheap. I'd likely be changing the brake and shifter cables out anyway because I'm thinking of going to a flat bar versus drop bars. That means it'll get straight brake levers and thumb shifters. I've never been a fan of dt shifters on a tall frame, they're just too far down and out of reach for my liking.
I'm not very familiar with Trek, never had one before and never had anything with Ishiwatta tubing. How did it compare to say Reynolds 531 or Tange back then?

Lascauxcaveman 

I don't think you can go wrong with Ishiwata 022, if that's what it is. The geometry and construction techniques will have as much (or more) to say about ride quality as the tubing, but on a big frame like that, you don't necessarily want the thinnest, lightest tubing you can get anyway. My seat-of-the-pants judgement is that the 022 tubing set is roughly equivalent to 531. The bikes I'm comparing are a 1985 Trek 600 (Reynolds 531cs) and a 1984 Bianchi Limited (Ishiwata 022 SuperSet). Both 25" frames. Both moderately stiff with a nice, responsive ride. Not super springy, but also not dead.

vintagebicycle

I've got a 1981 412 here that was bought new around Christmas of that year, same color as the one in the ad too.
The seat post is an SR in 27.2mm.
Mine still has its original Rigida 1320 rims and Sunshine Gyro hubs, a 110mm SR stem, Suntour 6 speed freewheel, Suntour VXGT derailleur, an Advocet saddle, and Dia Compe 500 side pull brakes.

The Nishiki likely has center pull brakes, so you will need a pair of cable hangers to fit the Trek frame if the Nishiki one's can't be used. The stem should be fine but its likely too short for the taller bike but that's a matter of preference. Most 64cm frames came with rather long reach stems, 110mm or longer.
Fit wise, the diameter should be the same.
While I like both model bikes, the Trek will no doubt be an upgrade in quality. The Tange tubing of the Nishiki was good but not as rigid as the Ishawatta tubing.

As with most larger frames, I sort of doubt the whole frame is built with the lightest tubing, usually only the main triangle got the advertised tubes. For strength reasons they mostly either used a lesser chromoly tubing for the stays.
My 412 was always one of my favorite bikes. As a tall guy, it fit me the best and the tube length choices they made seemed to make sense vs. several Asian bikes I've had which never fit me right in their factory configuration.

1980-81 was pretty early for Trek, I believe it was only their 5th or 6th years building bikes, and the first few years were frame only sales if I remember right.

bikemig 

The info on old Treks is available online. If a 1981 Trek 412, then it is Ishiwata 022 main triangle and Ishiwata hi tensile steel fork and rear triangle. That's a good way to build a bike since the expensive tubing is used where it matters most (the main triangle).

The parts will largely work as others have said. It likely takes a 27.2 seatpost, the brakes might not work but likely will, and the headset may well work.

The frame is too expensive at $140 even with the bump up that bikes are getting during the pandemic. The bike has the semi sloping CCL fork crown and forks with those crowns have been known to fail. So you should figure a new fork for that bike which is not expensive.

I'd offer $40 for that frame, explain the potential problem with the fork, and walk away if the seller turns you down.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ork-crown.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...a-forks-2.html

By the way, it's nearly always a much better deal to just buy a complete bike over a frame even if you have the parts on hand.

oldspokes

The Trek forks with the issues were later, and I believe were scripted "Trek" on the crown.

$40 won't buy you a Schwinn Varsity frame these days, I just did a quick search and couldn't find another one of these any cheaper, in fact most were close to double what that seller is asking by the time you figure shipping. If it were mine, I'd be holding firm at that price, if not higher.

I ever saw the 400 and 600 series bikes as lower models, each of the Trek models were purpose built, not so much as a hierarchy of quality.
Those two models both are very popular for fixed gear conversions due to the lack of braze ons to get in the way.

I've owned an almost identical bike in that size since new, mine came new out of the box with Rigida 1320 rims and Campy Record hubs and AR derailleurs despite being advertised as having Sunshine hubs and VX-GT derailleurs. When the shop owner called to find out what was up he was simply told they substituted parts to meet demand as needed.
My original wheels are long gone, but the rest of the bike is still all original other than the addition of bar end shifters and some padded bar tape.

I had a 613 for a while a few years back but ended up parting it out, the frame set, (with the headset and bb), sold for $260 online plus shipping. It was in fair condition at best and needed a full repaint. Side by side the 412 and 613 frames look identical other than the tubing decal, they even weigh nearly the same.with the 412 being only a few ounces lighter in the same size.

Years ago I was told by a frame builder that larger models almost never used high end tubing in the stays and forks, both due to strength issues and tubing length availability.

bikemig 

The problem was with the Ishiwata CCL fork crown that came on this bike. Take a look at the 1981 catalog and the threads I posted on this. The seller can ask for whatever he or she wants but as a buyer, the OP should figure in the price of a new fork.

vintagebicycle

I seem to remember Trek having a recall or at least a letter or program about some bad forks but that was in the mid to later 80's. I do remember that the forks in question were stamped TREK. Those that weren't stamped were not to be replaced under the directive. They would ship us forks already painted to match, the new forks had a sloping crown and were scripted Trek. It appeared that they were just using forks from another model to replace the defective forks.
I never did see a failure, but a certain few customers were notified and ended up getting new forks installed for free. A few were upset because the new forks looked different than the original forks, For some reason 1987 seems about right for the whole deal.

In those links posted, the bikes in question are all 600 series bikes, and there only seems to be one or two failures spoken about.
I've likely seen that many failures in any particular brand over the years.

My 1981 412 likely has well over 20,000 miles of rural riding on it, with likely a third of that on dirt trails and loose stone roads. The fork is fine and shows no sign of failure. For arguments sake, I pulled the fork out this afternoon, that other link speaks of the steer tube not being thicker at the base, that's not the case on my 412, the steer tube gains diameter in two steps, first just above the bottom race, and again at the race. There is no TREK scripting or stamp on the fork at all.
A close look shows some serious sloppy welds, and some paint over weld spatter and/or dirt but no cracks and its not identical to the brown fork in the first link above. The steer tube on mine extends down past the crown about 3mm and the tubing tapers internally towards the bottom to a point where the bottom of the steerer is only abou 17.5mm ID. The bottom of the fork crown is curved not straight across, but still a stamped crown. The forks are not particularly light, in comparison, even a cheap pair of Akisu chrome replacement forks are lighter. There is no tubing decal on these forks and the Ishiwatta decal states "Double Butted Three Main Tubes" on a silver/gold and blue foil tubing decal. I see no reason to believe the forks are chromoly of any type. Back in the day when I bought this it's competition was the Raleigh Super Course, and Motobecane Grand Jubile'.
The dealer where I bought mine sold all three, I got to speak to the Raleigh rep one day there and I was contemplating buying the Raleigh Comp GS at that time because I ordered one and when it came in, in a 25.5" frame, the forks had no tubing decals. The rep made a ton of calls trying to find out why or if he could get another fork but he was told that when it came to the larger sizes, they didn't use butted tubing and they only used it on the main triangle. I didn't buy the bike with the thought that all that extra money wasn't getting me anything but different derailleurs. The Super Course in that size was basically the same bike. I skipped Raleigh and went looking elsewhere. I bought the Trek because of price, it was equipped well enough, basically as well as the Super Course or Motobecane and the frame felt better to me. The bike fit me well overall.
My buddy bought an almost identical bike a month later, his was a 57cm frame, his has tubing decals on the forks, and his tubing decal reads "Ishiwatta 022 double butted tubes, forks, & stays" His decal is black with a gold foil background. He's got twice as many miles on his as I do on mine and has never had any issues with his fork either. He uses that bike daily to commute about 9 miles to work.

Steel forks rarely just snap when they fail, there would be plenty of warning long before catastrophic failure.
I certainly don't ride nearly as much these days as I did back in the day, most of the miles on my bike were put on it in the early to mid 80's, and again in the later 90's. Now its just my occasional ride, as I get older I'm shying away from drop bar bikes and moving more toward straight bars and single speed bikes.

rustymetal

No matter what, it don't matter now, I called the seller this afternoon and went to take a look and maybe make a deal. Going on what I read here I wasn't going to offer more than $100. I went to see the bike, made my offer and he wouldn't budge. He said he's got a dozen or more emails from others wanting the bike.
He then said if I want a cheap bike, he's got a few lesser models, he dragged out an older Nishiki International in a 25" frame and said I could have that for $80. He also had a Nishiki Sport in 25" too. While I was looking over the Nishiki International another guy showed up, he looked the Trek over real well and said he'd take it. The seller looked at me and told the guy that I was there first if I wanted it for $140, when I declined he sold it. The guy paid and left.
The guy said he's got a lot of old bikes he used to ride, some he parted out over the years, others were torn down for a rebuild and forgotten. He wouldn't budge on the International price either, and said if I don't want it, it's getting listed next for $125. After some haggling I made a deal for both the International and the Sport both in 25" and the same color for $100 cash. He also threw in a few used headsets and the original bottom bracket from the International.
What surprised me is that the older International frame was considerably lighter than the Trek 412 frame? So are the forks. I didn't weigh anything but the difference was substantial in the frame, not as much in the forks. What tubing was the International made from? I'm guessing its from around '75 or maybe earlier. Its got the old crown type headbadge. Its the same model as the smaller donor bike so everything will swap.

It needs some touch up and some new decals, and all the threads are covered in copper never-seize compound, but otherwise it looks good.

Hudson308 

Looks like you made out just fine after all!

rustymetal

I suppose so but now I've got to decide what to do with the second frame.
I was surprised to see that the lesser model frame, (also a bit newer I assume but not by much), is shorter by 3 1/2" overall in the frame alone. If I align the seat post and bb on both frames, the geometry is the same but the rear stays are 1/2" shorter and the front triangle is 3" shorter on the Sport model. (Both the top tube and down tube are equally shorter, keeping the headtube angle the same but reducing the overall size of the triangle.
The two bare frames aren't a lot different in weight, the International is lighter by only 6 ounces. (Sport 100 oz, International 94 oz,.
The Sport has a Femco 1207 Hi Tensile tubing decal. I would have expected a far greater difference in weight. I sort of like the shorter Sport frame, but its going to be a tight fit with 27" wheels with 1 1/4" tires. The fit and finish is also better on the Sport. The brazing around the lugs is cleaner with no slop being painted over. The International is slightly lighter metallic blue with finer metal flakes, the Sport is a candy metallic paint with blue metallic over a pearl white.
Both use the same length steer tube, the International uses a 26.6mm seat post and the Sport a 26.2mm post.
The fork crowns are similar but the International crown is cast or forged steel, the Sport is stamped steel similar to the fork on the Trek I didn't buy. The Sport fork is 2 oz
lighter. The Sport has less curve at the fork tips and a bit more length to the blades because of it.
The Sport says made in Taiwan and has a date code G0581 on he left dropout
The International has a serial no. on the underside of the bb, KS324106 and says Made in Japan.

JohnDThompson 

I think I see a "Mangalloy" tubing sticker on the frame:



IIRC, those may have used 26.8mm post.

As always, it's best to actually measure.

vintagebicycle

The differences in weight, or lack there of is a sign that the frame may be built with better tubing then they let on. We were told by more than one manufacturer back in the day that it was common for the factory to use a different frame then the model called for if they ran short. Bikes were flying off the showroom floors back then and manufacturers were having trouble keeping up. Being in manufacturing myself for many years I fully understand why and how they would just use what they had to fill an order. I ran into this with frames, forks, and all sorts of components. It was more common on the lesser models. We often had bikes come right out of the box with all sorts of component variations. I remember pulling a Ross Super Grand Tour out of its box brand new and seeing that instead of a Shimano 600 rear derailleur it had a Shimano Crane. I remember a Motobecane Grand Jubile' that was supposed to have Huret Jubilee or Suntour Cyclone derailleurs show up with full Campagnolo Nuovo record. The whole bike looked like a Grand Record model but in Grand Jubile' paint and decals.
I've got both a Raleigh Super Grand Prix frameset here and a year older Super Course frameset, both are labeled accordingly, the SC has a 531 decal, the SGP does not. The two frames are identical in every aspect, including weight and geometry. Only the color and decals are different.
Chances are they simply used left over SC frames to build the following year SGP models, at least in that size. I've had other SGP frames that were more like a Grand Prix, with the smaller seat post and longer stays. SGP frame also usually had 71-72mm bb shells, this one has a standard 68mm shell just like the Carlton built SC. I read the same both here and on a few other forums about this with these two models as well.

Nishiki was a marketing brand not a manufacturer. The bikes were made by Kawamura and later Giant.
Your International is from Kawamura, the serial number is 1975 or older, the Sport is from May of 1981 and built by Giant.
Both were good bikes, the International was a bit more respected in its day. Both were built during the bike boom years so its hard to tell for certain what tubing was used or if there were any variations vs. the printed specs. Most likely there were.
The difference in age and manufacturer make the two hard to compare. I don't think you will go wrong with either model but the International would make the final product more sell-able if that's a concern.

I've ridden both models, personally I prefer the International, it just handles better and feels more stable on the road. I generally prefer the longest wheelbase I can find though.