Early '70's Clive Stuart ANYONE...?
07-06-06, 03:59 PM
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Early '70's Clive Stuart ANYONE...?
Does anybody have info on the Clive Stuart brand of bicycles???
I have one from the very early '70's and cannot find info on them. The unusual part is the 531 sticker combined with stamped steel drop outs.
Any leads to C.S. history would be greatly appreciated!
I have one from the very early '70's and cannot find info on them. The unusual part is the 531 sticker combined with stamped steel drop outs.
Any leads to C.S. history would be greatly appreciated!
07-06-06, 09:47 PM
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A search of the CR archives did not yield much. Someone had a frame only for sale, someone else wanting info as you are. Someone recalled a Clive Stuart racing team and another thought they remebered Clive Stuart being a frame builder based in London. Not much help here.
07-23-06, 10:36 AM
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re. Clive Stuart
Hi,
Just seen your post.
Clive Stuart were a frame manufacturer & retailer up to the early/mid 70s. They had a high profile in the late 60s/early-mid 70s and then went down the pan (along with many other builders/teams) - can't remember exact date. They ran a successful (in terms of British pro cycling, which was ailing at the time) British pro road team during that period. Big rivalry for top spot was with Holdsworths, also based in S. London (Beckenham and Wandsworth) who also followed into oblivion in time. Team colours, and all the good frames therefore, were yellow with black trim. Pro spec bikes always had Campagnolo kit - Nuovo Record gearset etc. and were infamous (seems very funny now) for the fact that their pro-team bikes all had plastic Unica-Nitor saddles (albeit leather-covered) instead of the more common Brooks Pro (leather) ones. They were based in Catford, south-east London (main outlet) and further out on the A21 road out of London - Green Street Green. I frequented the Catford outlet in my distant youth.
One of their more successful & high profile riders was Reg Barnett and he went on to build/market his own brand of frames after Clive Stuarts went under. His place was near Crystal Palace, also in South London.
I've probably got some more bumph on them in my loft, but it will take a while to dig out. May have some pic's up there - not sure.
Hope that helps. If any specific questions I'll do my best to reply.
Just seen your post.
Clive Stuart were a frame manufacturer & retailer up to the early/mid 70s. They had a high profile in the late 60s/early-mid 70s and then went down the pan (along with many other builders/teams) - can't remember exact date. They ran a successful (in terms of British pro cycling, which was ailing at the time) British pro road team during that period. Big rivalry for top spot was with Holdsworths, also based in S. London (Beckenham and Wandsworth) who also followed into oblivion in time. Team colours, and all the good frames therefore, were yellow with black trim. Pro spec bikes always had Campagnolo kit - Nuovo Record gearset etc. and were infamous (seems very funny now) for the fact that their pro-team bikes all had plastic Unica-Nitor saddles (albeit leather-covered) instead of the more common Brooks Pro (leather) ones. They were based in Catford, south-east London (main outlet) and further out on the A21 road out of London - Green Street Green. I frequented the Catford outlet in my distant youth.
One of their more successful & high profile riders was Reg Barnett and he went on to build/market his own brand of frames after Clive Stuarts went under. His place was near Crystal Palace, also in South London.
I've probably got some more bumph on them in my loft, but it will take a while to dig out. May have some pic's up there - not sure.
Hope that helps. If any specific questions I'll do my best to reply.
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06-04-08, 09:02 PM
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The 531 sticker was well known then, it refers to the tube used to make the frame, it was manufactured in England by 'Reynolds' and was considered to be high tech then, often also labelled as double-butted, as it was strenghened at either end internally. Hope this info is useful
Regards
Mark Krysta
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11-12-08, 03:15 PM
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I worked at Clive Stuart Cycles in Catford
Having worked at Clive Stuart Cycles almost from the start until the company finished I have first-hand knowledge of this short-lived company. (I cannot remember the exact dates of trading)
Prior to working at Clive Stuarts I worked for Hinds Cycles of Lewisham which was closing down, I already knew Ken Bird and contacted him about a job at Clive Stuarts in Catford the main branch, who had just opened and started almost straight away.
The business was owned by brothers Clive and Stuart Biddulph hence the name, a couple of young entrepreneurs of which Clive (who used to visit in his Rolls Royce!) was the one with a cycling interest.
Ken Bird did not build frames he was a mechanic and wheel-builder like myself, but was the manager of the Catford branch, I then became assistant manager although for most of the time I was the only person in the shop!
There were two other shops if I remember correctly Stoke-on-Trent and Welling in Kent the Stoke on Trent shop was bought by Brian Rourke who is still in business and the Welling shop was bought by Ken and Alec Bird (it was Alec who built frames not Ken). Ken Bird died a few years ago I do not know any more about Alec Bird, all I do remember is how much the two of them argued!
Clive Stuarts did have a racing team with Ken Bird as the manager, I remember Reg Barnett as one of the riders I believe Geoff Wyles may have been another. The team colours were Canary Yellow and Black with a logo that represented a spinning wheel and arrows going outwards.
I have no idea why the shops closed apart from the Biddulph brother running out of money probably due to the expense of running a professional cycling team and not enough money coming into the business.
When Clive Stuarts closed I then went and worked at The Holdsworthy Co. which from the description of your frame is probably where it was made if it does not have Campagnolo fork ends. The Holdsworthy Co. made all of the cheaper Clive Stuart Cycles which had plain plate fork ends and possibly a three digit frame number, although I do not believe any were exported so cannot think how it got to the USA! The bikes were supplied complete to Clive Stuarts and our only involvement was to check the bikes ready for sale. The equipment was basic Campagnolo Equipe gears probably with Weinmann centre pull brakes alloy screw on hubs, 27" x 1 1/4" steel rims, Dunlop Tyres steel plain seat post, steel Williams chainset and Brooks saddle
For information Holdsworthy also made Claud Butler,Holdsworth and Freddie Grubb cycles although the separate Holdsworth shops which were not owned by Holdsworthy also built their own bikes.
I worked for The Holdsworthy Co. for several years but sadly they also closed. I never worked another cycle company and chose a career in computers instead!
Hope this all of use to somebody.
Jim Hagan
Prior to working at Clive Stuarts I worked for Hinds Cycles of Lewisham which was closing down, I already knew Ken Bird and contacted him about a job at Clive Stuarts in Catford the main branch, who had just opened and started almost straight away.
The business was owned by brothers Clive and Stuart Biddulph hence the name, a couple of young entrepreneurs of which Clive (who used to visit in his Rolls Royce!) was the one with a cycling interest.
Ken Bird did not build frames he was a mechanic and wheel-builder like myself, but was the manager of the Catford branch, I then became assistant manager although for most of the time I was the only person in the shop!
There were two other shops if I remember correctly Stoke-on-Trent and Welling in Kent the Stoke on Trent shop was bought by Brian Rourke who is still in business and the Welling shop was bought by Ken and Alec Bird (it was Alec who built frames not Ken). Ken Bird died a few years ago I do not know any more about Alec Bird, all I do remember is how much the two of them argued!
Clive Stuarts did have a racing team with Ken Bird as the manager, I remember Reg Barnett as one of the riders I believe Geoff Wyles may have been another. The team colours were Canary Yellow and Black with a logo that represented a spinning wheel and arrows going outwards.
I have no idea why the shops closed apart from the Biddulph brother running out of money probably due to the expense of running a professional cycling team and not enough money coming into the business.
When Clive Stuarts closed I then went and worked at The Holdsworthy Co. which from the description of your frame is probably where it was made if it does not have Campagnolo fork ends. The Holdsworthy Co. made all of the cheaper Clive Stuart Cycles which had plain plate fork ends and possibly a three digit frame number, although I do not believe any were exported so cannot think how it got to the USA! The bikes were supplied complete to Clive Stuarts and our only involvement was to check the bikes ready for sale. The equipment was basic Campagnolo Equipe gears probably with Weinmann centre pull brakes alloy screw on hubs, 27" x 1 1/4" steel rims, Dunlop Tyres steel plain seat post, steel Williams chainset and Brooks saddle
For information Holdsworthy also made Claud Butler,Holdsworth and Freddie Grubb cycles although the separate Holdsworth shops which were not owned by Holdsworthy also built their own bikes.
I worked for The Holdsworthy Co. for several years but sadly they also closed. I never worked another cycle company and chose a career in computers instead!
Hope this all of use to somebody.
Jim Hagan
11-12-08, 03:37 PM
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Having worked at Clive Stuart Cycles almost from the start until the company finished I have first-hand knowledge of this short-lived company. (I cannot remember the exact dates of trading)
Prior to working at Clive Stuarts I worked for Hinds Cycles of Lewisham which was closing down, I already knew Ken Bird and contacted him about a job at Clive Stuarts in Catford the main branch, who had just opened and started almost straight away.
The business was owned by brothers Clive and Stuart Biddulph hence the name, a couple of young entrepreneurs of which Clive (who used to visit in his Rolls Royce!) was the one with a cycling interest.
Ken Bird did not build frames he was a mechanic and wheel-builder like myself, but was the manager of the Catford branch, I then became assistant manager although for most of the time I was the only person in the shop!
There were two other shops if I remember correctly Stoke-on-Trent and Welling in Kent the Stoke on Trent shop was bought by Brian Rourke who is still in business and the Welling shop was bought by Ken and Alec Bird (it was Alec who built frames not Ken). Ken Bird died a few years ago I do not know any more about Alec Bird, all I do remember is how much the two of them argued!
Clive Stuarts did have a racing team with Ken Bird as the manager, I remember Reg Barnett as one of the riders I believe Geoff Wyles may have been another. The team colours were Canary Yellow and Black with a logo that represented a spinning wheel and arrows going outwards.
I have no idea why the shops closed apart from the Biddulph brother running out of money probably due to the expense of running a professional cycling team and not enough money coming into the business.
When Clive Stuarts closed I then went and worked at The Holdsworthy Co. which from the description of your frame is probably where it was made if it does not have Campagnolo fork ends. The Holdsworthy Co. made all of the cheaper Clive Stuart Cycles which had plain plate fork ends and possibly a three digit frame number, although I do not believe any were exported so cannot think how it got to the USA! The bikes were supplied complete to Clive Stuarts and our only involvement was to check the bikes ready for sale. The equipment was basic Campagnolo Equipe gears probably with Weinmann centre pull brakes alloy screw on hubs, 27" x 1 1/4" steel rims, Dunlop Tyres steel plain seat post, steel Williams chainset and Brooks saddle
For information Holdsworthy also made Claud Butler,Holdsworth and Freddie Grubb cycles although the separate Holdsworth shops which were not owned by Holdsworthy also built their own bikes.
I worked for The Holdsworthy Co. for several years but sadly they also closed. I never worked another cycle company and chose a career in computers instead!
Hope this all of use to somebody.
Jim Hagan
Prior to working at Clive Stuarts I worked for Hinds Cycles of Lewisham which was closing down, I already knew Ken Bird and contacted him about a job at Clive Stuarts in Catford the main branch, who had just opened and started almost straight away.
The business was owned by brothers Clive and Stuart Biddulph hence the name, a couple of young entrepreneurs of which Clive (who used to visit in his Rolls Royce!) was the one with a cycling interest.
Ken Bird did not build frames he was a mechanic and wheel-builder like myself, but was the manager of the Catford branch, I then became assistant manager although for most of the time I was the only person in the shop!
There were two other shops if I remember correctly Stoke-on-Trent and Welling in Kent the Stoke on Trent shop was bought by Brian Rourke who is still in business and the Welling shop was bought by Ken and Alec Bird (it was Alec who built frames not Ken). Ken Bird died a few years ago I do not know any more about Alec Bird, all I do remember is how much the two of them argued!
Clive Stuarts did have a racing team with Ken Bird as the manager, I remember Reg Barnett as one of the riders I believe Geoff Wyles may have been another. The team colours were Canary Yellow and Black with a logo that represented a spinning wheel and arrows going outwards.
I have no idea why the shops closed apart from the Biddulph brother running out of money probably due to the expense of running a professional cycling team and not enough money coming into the business.
When Clive Stuarts closed I then went and worked at The Holdsworthy Co. which from the description of your frame is probably where it was made if it does not have Campagnolo fork ends. The Holdsworthy Co. made all of the cheaper Clive Stuart Cycles which had plain plate fork ends and possibly a three digit frame number, although I do not believe any were exported so cannot think how it got to the USA! The bikes were supplied complete to Clive Stuarts and our only involvement was to check the bikes ready for sale. The equipment was basic Campagnolo Equipe gears probably with Weinmann centre pull brakes alloy screw on hubs, 27" x 1 1/4" steel rims, Dunlop Tyres steel plain seat post, steel Williams chainset and Brooks saddle
For information Holdsworthy also made Claud Butler,Holdsworth and Freddie Grubb cycles although the separate Holdsworth shops which were not owned by Holdsworthy also built their own bikes.
I worked for The Holdsworthy Co. for several years but sadly they also closed. I never worked another cycle company and chose a career in computers instead!
Hope this all of use to somebody.
Jim Hagan
Also, one of my club mates in the early 1970's, sadly now long departed, bought a Ken Bird track frame (which I thought was built by Ken Bird, but now stand corrected) brand new. He rode it with a fixed gear on a 100 mile club run and kept up with all of us, uphill and down. If I remember correctly, he never actually got to pay for it as the shop went bust in the week between him first riding it out and the next Sunday. Old George was actually pretty upset about this, being an upright sort of guy and kept riding up to the closed shop in the hope that someone would be there that he could pay.
Geoff Wyles also rode in the Holdsworth Campagnolo team with Les West - both heroes of mine at the time. Holdsworth have the last remaining Team issue Holdsworth Professional bike of that era - the "spare" one dispayed in the Ashlone Road side window of their remaining (and original) shop in Lower Richmond Road, Putney. My own 1970 Holdworth frame was 'born' in that shop, rather than at the factory and as far as I can ascertain was built by a Mr Roy Thame, who went on to build frames with his own name on them. I also have, and have owned, a selection of Claud Butler frames from the Holdsworth days plus I once had a couple of really old frames from the times before Claud Butler went bust and they made their own.
I have seen a number of Clive Stuart bikes over the years, some of them high quality, but not very recently.
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11-13-08, 04:46 PM
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Hi Oldpeddler,
Ken was a bit of a self-publicist hence the book if you get my drift, he may well have offered his services to all and sundry, but on The Tour de France it was Harry Hall who was the head British Team Mechanic and I think Ken probably learnt a lot from him which in due course got passed on to me by Ken in respect of wheel-building which is what he was really known for at that time. I have not seen the book but would be interested to see a copy.
I went on The Tour of Britain (Milk Race) as a mechanic in the Holdsworthy neutral service car where you could attend to any rider who did not have their own service car available I also hung out of the car trying to adjust Reg Barnetts gears going up the Brecon Beacons!
Another correction is that Roy Thame did not build frames himself, but he did own the Holdsworth shops along with his wife Alma and some time later did have frames built with his name on. I have a feeling that Ron Cooper may have built the frames as he also had an association with The Holdsworth Team which was run by Roy Thame, but the team bikes were built and supplied by The Holdsworthy Co. and Ron Cooper who was then employed by Holdsworthy built the team frames in the new Holdsworthy factory at Burbage Road Penge, the original factory being in Lullington Road.
Ron Cooper was a real craftsman and even had his own prototyping area within the factory for new models.
In fact a row blew up over Roy Thame having bikes built with the Holdsworth name on which was owned by The Holdsworthy Co. and he was told to stop doing so, which is why he decided to have bikes with his own name instead. Many people get confused over the relationship of the Holdsworth shops and Holdsworthy which were in fact two different companies but with an common parentage doing a search for Holdsworth on Google will explain.
I knew Les West very well as he was a sales rep for Holdsworthy (even Les would agree that he was not the best salesman!) a very nice guy who could have made a name for himself abroad but preferred to race in the UK.
Hope this all helps,
Jim
Ken was a bit of a self-publicist hence the book if you get my drift, he may well have offered his services to all and sundry, but on The Tour de France it was Harry Hall who was the head British Team Mechanic and I think Ken probably learnt a lot from him which in due course got passed on to me by Ken in respect of wheel-building which is what he was really known for at that time. I have not seen the book but would be interested to see a copy.
I went on The Tour of Britain (Milk Race) as a mechanic in the Holdsworthy neutral service car where you could attend to any rider who did not have their own service car available I also hung out of the car trying to adjust Reg Barnetts gears going up the Brecon Beacons!
Another correction is that Roy Thame did not build frames himself, but he did own the Holdsworth shops along with his wife Alma and some time later did have frames built with his name on. I have a feeling that Ron Cooper may have built the frames as he also had an association with The Holdsworth Team which was run by Roy Thame, but the team bikes were built and supplied by The Holdsworthy Co. and Ron Cooper who was then employed by Holdsworthy built the team frames in the new Holdsworthy factory at Burbage Road Penge, the original factory being in Lullington Road.
Ron Cooper was a real craftsman and even had his own prototyping area within the factory for new models.
In fact a row blew up over Roy Thame having bikes built with the Holdsworth name on which was owned by The Holdsworthy Co. and he was told to stop doing so, which is why he decided to have bikes with his own name instead. Many people get confused over the relationship of the Holdsworth shops and Holdsworthy which were in fact two different companies but with an common parentage doing a search for Holdsworth on Google will explain.
I knew Les West very well as he was a sales rep for Holdsworthy (even Les would agree that he was not the best salesman!) a very nice guy who could have made a name for himself abroad but preferred to race in the UK.
Hope this all helps,
Jim
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11-16-08, 11:45 PM
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I don't know much about Clive Stuart Cycles other than what I heard as I raced in my first 10 mileTime Trial (Eversley - Amberley 10) when a member of the Farnborough & Camberley Wheelers aged 13.
What I heard on my mass produced Sun Snipe 5 Speed 'road bike' and flapping football shorts was the
whirring of silk tubeless tyres and the blur of a lanky guy on his Clive Stuart leaving me in his wake. I clocked 29 minutes - the seasoned Clive Stuart rider a 22. His bike, even at that time was costly - a few hundred quid. With all the cables stripped of their plastic and replaced with chrome.
Later graduated to a Holdsworth Professional and proper woollen cycle shorts with chamois patch.
My times improved too.
Cheers.
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11-18-08, 02:19 PM
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Hi Oldpeddler,
Ken was a bit of a self-publicist hence the book if you get my drift, he may well have offered his services to all and sundry, but on The Tour de France it was Harry Hall who was the head British Team Mechanic and I think Ken probably learnt a lot from him which in due course got passed on to me by Ken in respect of wheel-building which is what he was really known for at that time. I have not seen the book but would be interested to see a copy.
I went on The Tour of Britain (Milk Race) as a mechanic in the Holdsworthy neutral service car where you could attend to any rider who did not have their own service car available I also hung out of the car trying to adjust Reg Barnetts gears going up the Brecon Beacons!
Another correction is that Roy Thame did not build frames himself, but he did own the Holdsworth shops along with his wife Alma and some time later did have frames built with his name on. I have a feeling that Ron Cooper may have built the frames as he also had an association with The Holdsworth Team which was run by Roy Thame, but the team bikes were built and supplied by The Holdsworthy Co. and Ron Cooper who was then employed by Holdsworthy built the team frames in the new Holdsworthy factory at Burbage Road Penge, the original factory being in Lullington Road.
Ron Cooper was a real craftsman and even had his own prototyping area within the factory for new models.
In fact a row blew up over Roy Thame having bikes built with the Holdsworth name on which was owned by The Holdsworthy Co. and he was told to stop doing so, which is why he decided to have bikes with his own name instead. Many people get confused over the relationship of the Holdsworth shops and Holdsworthy which were in fact two different companies but with an common parentage doing a search for Holdsworth on Google will explain.
I knew Les West very well as he was a sales rep for Holdsworthy (even Les would agree that he was not the best salesman!) a very nice guy who could have made a name for himself abroad but preferred to race in the UK.
Hope this all helps,
Jim
Ken was a bit of a self-publicist hence the book if you get my drift, he may well have offered his services to all and sundry, but on The Tour de France it was Harry Hall who was the head British Team Mechanic and I think Ken probably learnt a lot from him which in due course got passed on to me by Ken in respect of wheel-building which is what he was really known for at that time. I have not seen the book but would be interested to see a copy.
I went on The Tour of Britain (Milk Race) as a mechanic in the Holdsworthy neutral service car where you could attend to any rider who did not have their own service car available I also hung out of the car trying to adjust Reg Barnetts gears going up the Brecon Beacons!
Another correction is that Roy Thame did not build frames himself, but he did own the Holdsworth shops along with his wife Alma and some time later did have frames built with his name on. I have a feeling that Ron Cooper may have built the frames as he also had an association with The Holdsworth Team which was run by Roy Thame, but the team bikes were built and supplied by The Holdsworthy Co. and Ron Cooper who was then employed by Holdsworthy built the team frames in the new Holdsworthy factory at Burbage Road Penge, the original factory being in Lullington Road.
Ron Cooper was a real craftsman and even had his own prototyping area within the factory for new models.
In fact a row blew up over Roy Thame having bikes built with the Holdsworth name on which was owned by The Holdsworthy Co. and he was told to stop doing so, which is why he decided to have bikes with his own name instead. Many people get confused over the relationship of the Holdsworth shops and Holdsworthy which were in fact two different companies but with an common parentage doing a search for Holdsworth on Google will explain.
I knew Les West very well as he was a sales rep for Holdsworthy (even Les would agree that he was not the best salesman!) a very nice guy who could have made a name for himself abroad but preferred to race in the UK.
Hope this all helps,
Jim
Thanks for the info - the more I find out about the British frame builders and stars of "my" era, the more there is to learn! Les West was a boyhood hero to myself and my friends, not a week went by without some mention in the cycling press - or so it seems now! Good to hear from someone who knew him. I saw the Milk Race go past: we were given time out of school to stand at the roadside and if the Holdsworthy car you rode in was a Ford Corsair, I may have seen you at work! All the best.
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05-11-09, 03:32 PM
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Hi Jim Hagan lol. Bet you don't remember me. I was the Saturday boy in the Catford Clive Stuart shop. I moved there with Ken Bird from Hinds in Clapham. Most of the specialist frames were built by Bill Gray in a small workshop behind Stratton cycles in East Hill Wandsworth. He was a master craftsman and made frames for a lot of tour riders out of the best materials of the time Reynolds 531 etc. He was the first frame builder to weld aluminium. Jim may remember us going to the Isle of Wight with Ken and the Clive Stuart team for either a stage of the tour of Britain or the Isle of Wight. Can't remember now. I still have a pic of myself riding a yellow Clive Stuart in a hill climb. Would love to here from any of you guys out there.
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05-11-09, 03:42 PM
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Also... Ken Bird had a big white ford Zodiac emblazened with Clive Stuart stickers and a huge rack that was somehow fixed to the boot that held a number of spare wheels and two complete bikes. It could often be seen at Crystal Palace road races on Tuesday evenings. He used it on the Milk race. I think it even went on the Tour de France but I'm not sure. Ken built some of the stiffest wheels available. He used a tie and solder method whereby the spokes were wound with fuse wire where they crossed and then solder was applied using flux and a wax 'taper'. I guess this is where Jim learned his trade. God its all coming back!
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05-19-09, 12:48 PM
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Wow, this is fascinating! Went past Stratton Cycles shop on the A205 South Circular Road myself a fortnight ago, Had the urge to stop and look properly but London traffic and parking restrictions prevailed. Is this the same Mr Stratton who used to work for Claud Butler?
05-19-09, 01:30 PM
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WOW!!
This is very interesting. If I can find a number on the frame, would that help determine provenance?
After 10+ years on the disabled hook, I finally broke down and rebuilt the rear wheel. Now I ride it regularly. What a wonderful bike!
But I still puzzle over the stamped drop-outs on a 531 frame. Why would they do that?
I'd post pictures, but y'all'd prolly KILL me!
(the neon colors and the upwrong bars & all)
The younger brother of the fellow I inherited it from says Thom bought it in Washington state. But the family did travel across The Pond often, so he may have actually brought it back himself.
That would have been circa 1969-1970.
Thanks for all the insight into one of my favorite bikes!
This is very interesting. If I can find a number on the frame, would that help determine provenance?
After 10+ years on the disabled hook, I finally broke down and rebuilt the rear wheel. Now I ride it regularly. What a wonderful bike!
But I still puzzle over the stamped drop-outs on a 531 frame. Why would they do that?
I'd post pictures, but y'all'd prolly KILL me!
(the neon colors and the upwrong bars & all)
The younger brother of the fellow I inherited it from says Thom bought it in Washington state. But the family did travel across The Pond often, so he may have actually brought it back himself.
That would have been circa 1969-1970.
Thanks for all the insight into one of my favorite bikes!
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05-25-09, 04:09 AM
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Bill Gray
Hi again. Sadly Bill Gray passed away some years ago at a ripe old age. He gave up his workshop behind Strattons in the early 80's and worked for Brithish Oxygen and then part time at the boat harbour in Colliers Wood South London. Bill had his own numbering system so that is probably the numbers you refere to on the forks. Bill always said he didn't make anything out of frame building. In the end it was more of a hobby than a profession. I remember going to the workshop as a teenager and pleading with Bill to make me a frame. I don't know if the original George Stratton worked for Claude Buttler. He always had the shop on East Hill Wandsworth. He used to say I was spying for Ken Bird and didn't make me very welcome in the shop lol.
05-25-09, 08:50 AM
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After 10+ years on the disabled hook, I finally broke down and rebuilt the rear wheel. Now I ride it regularly. What a wonderful bike!
But I still puzzle over the stamped drop-outs on a 531 frame. Why would they do that?
I'd post pictures, but y'all'd prolly KILL me!
(the neon colors and the upwrong bars & all)
But I still puzzle over the stamped drop-outs on a 531 frame. Why would they do that?
I'd post pictures, but y'all'd prolly KILL me!
(the neon colors and the upwrong bars & all)
C'mon Dr. Deltron, put up some photos. All of your paint jobs are amazing!
05-26-09, 01:40 PM
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/owhn/se...7618830038298/
It's been off the road for a decade until I finally located an acceptable replacement rear rim.
All good now!
Thanks again for the wealth of info from those that posted & had worked there, or nearby.
With that much background, maybe it's ready for a file on the CR list?
06-01-09, 03:20 PM
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The frame shown is one probably built by The Holdsworthy Co for Clive Stuarts the same frame was also sold to many other cycle shops in their own livery including the fledgling Specialized Cycles and could also be a Claud Butler, Holdsworth etc, etc.
These frames were known by Holdsworthy as the Equipe who marketed a bike called Holdsworth Equipe, which was built from 531 tubing but with plate dropouts hense the 531 sticker. Also note the Campagnolo braze-on bottom bracket cable guide and chainstay stop.
It was probably sold as a complete bike, possibly some young persons first racing bike no doubt!
These frames were known by Holdsworthy as the Equipe who marketed a bike called Holdsworth Equipe, which was built from 531 tubing but with plate dropouts hense the 531 sticker. Also note the Campagnolo braze-on bottom bracket cable guide and chainstay stop.
It was probably sold as a complete bike, possibly some young persons first racing bike no doubt!
06-01-09, 03:37 PM
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Back when I owned my first bike shop, I used to take it on the Sunday mountain bike ride. I've caught some serious air on it as well!
It may have had a hard life, but it's well loved, and still going strong!
I'll have to post a pic of me doing a one-handed wheelie on it!
06-01-09, 07:33 PM
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Was the 531 sticker "plain gauge" or "butted?" My Raleigh Carlton has stamped drop outs and plain gauge 531. It has the wrap around seat stay as well. Bought it new in 1966 or 67 for $100 at Stuyvesant Cycle Shop. Interested to read that Ron Cooper worked for Holdsworthy. The fellow I bought my Ron Cooper from in the mid 70's told me RC had been "the head frame builder at Holdsworthy," but I've seen nothing until now to support this. Brian Bayliss indicated when he looked at my bike in Greensboro that it was untrue and that Ron Cooper had worked with Gillot before going out on his own.
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06-08-09, 04:52 AM
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04-19-10, 01:33 PM
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I can certainly verify what others have said. I vaguely knew the Bird brothers for a short time. The only thing that I ever bought from CS was a cycling bag (that I still have) in about 1971 It's a bit tatty and is dark yelow and black. I think that CS changed from bright yellow to tie in with Eddy Merckx's move to the Moltini(?) team - this had dark yellow and black colours.
The bag has the wheel logo (as mentioned by Gary) surrounded by the words 'Clive Stuart Cycles . Welling . Catford.'
04-19-10, 06:05 PM
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Hi - I've just joined the group.
I can certainly verify what others have said. I vaguely knew the Bird brothers for a short time. The only thing that I ever bought from CS was a cycling bag (that I still have) in about 1971 It's a bit tatty and is dark yelow and black. I think that CS changed from bright yellow to tie in with Eddy Merckx's move to the Moltini(?) team - this had dark yellow and black colours.
The bag has the wheel logo (as mentioned by Gary) surrounded by the words 'Clive Stuart Cycles . Welling . Catford.'
I can certainly verify what others have said. I vaguely knew the Bird brothers for a short time. The only thing that I ever bought from CS was a cycling bag (that I still have) in about 1971 It's a bit tatty and is dark yelow and black. I think that CS changed from bright yellow to tie in with Eddy Merckx's move to the Moltini(?) team - this had dark yellow and black colours.
The bag has the wheel logo (as mentioned by Gary) surrounded by the words 'Clive Stuart Cycles . Welling . Catford.'
The UK has a fantastic tradition/history of local builders, and we appreciate any info. that people can contribute. I hope that the C and V forum is helpful to you, in return.
Cheers,
Bob
08-30-10, 06:33 AM
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My association with the Clive Stuart Orpington shop started in the Spring of 1968 when I bought an orange second-hand Youngs road bike. It had belonged to Barry O'Leary, one of their team riders and though a little on the large side it was my pride and joy - twenty-nine pounds was the price tag and probably the weight. Later that summer I badgered Alec (Bird) into giving me a job, I was in the shop so often by that stage he took the view that I may as well make myself useful (sic). I made tea, which in Sixties bike shops was drunk in bladder busting quantities, filing lugs, cleaning the Biddilph brothers mathching Lotus Elans and painting the wheels on Alec's Mini Cooper all for ten shillings a day plus lunch and buns, there was a bakery almost next door.
I learnt a huge amount and it was always great fun, I became particularly good at adjusting Campag headsets, bottom brackets and gluing on tubs, which I still do to this day. The team members as I remember were John Clary, Reg Smith, Barry O'Leary (mentioned above and still a friend) and George Drewell, Geoff Wiles and Reg Barnett were in the second incarnation of the team (69-70) season. I had by this time progressed to a flamboyant ruby red team with gold transfers team replica frame, still a mish mash of components but a vast improvement over the Youngs.
When Alec opened up the Welling shop I went too, I have every reason to believe that the workbench we built is still there. On visits to the Catford shop I met Alec's brother Ken, this was usually en-route to Holdsworthys in Penge to pick up precious Campagnolo bits and all the other goodies, that warehouse is worth a volume of words on its own. The taste of Ken's tea made with condensed milk will stay with me forever - and not in a good way!. When the CS Welling shop became Bird Brothers I stayed, helping out over a number of years, even after starting a proper job. The quest for speed and lightness craved by Time-Trialists had begun in earnest so we entered the drilling era. In my view the bikes we built were some of the most beautiful machines ever on the racing scene, though how they stayed intact with so much metal removed is a mystery even now. Alf Engers, Joe Mummery, Mick Ballard, Steve Heffernan and a host of other great riders were regulars at the shop and in its day could be considered one of the best bike shops in England.
Inevitably the friction between Ken and Alec became too much, their arguments were legendary, and Ken left to open his famous shop in Green Street Green. I stayed with Alec, but somehow remained friends with Ken. At one time I owned one each of their frames, I did conceive a plan to build up a bike and have it sprayed Kens white and Alecs pale blue with dual transfers but that may have pushed friendship a little far. Sadly Alec gave up the shop, the plan to concentrate on frame building, alas this did not work out. I am pleased to say I still meet up with him from time to time at bike jumbles. Ken of course died in early 2005 after closing his shop in the mid-nineties. It was sad to attend his funeral but it was a testament to his bike related stature that so many well known faces paid their respects to one of cyclings true characters.
I would be happy to reply to anyone who wants to share their own memories. It sounds grumpy old manish, but the bike shops I have been involved with since those days do not compare in terms of fun and craftsmanship and I for one miss them.
I learnt a huge amount and it was always great fun, I became particularly good at adjusting Campag headsets, bottom brackets and gluing on tubs, which I still do to this day. The team members as I remember were John Clary, Reg Smith, Barry O'Leary (mentioned above and still a friend) and George Drewell, Geoff Wiles and Reg Barnett were in the second incarnation of the team (69-70) season. I had by this time progressed to a flamboyant ruby red team with gold transfers team replica frame, still a mish mash of components but a vast improvement over the Youngs.
When Alec opened up the Welling shop I went too, I have every reason to believe that the workbench we built is still there. On visits to the Catford shop I met Alec's brother Ken, this was usually en-route to Holdsworthys in Penge to pick up precious Campagnolo bits and all the other goodies, that warehouse is worth a volume of words on its own. The taste of Ken's tea made with condensed milk will stay with me forever - and not in a good way!. When the CS Welling shop became Bird Brothers I stayed, helping out over a number of years, even after starting a proper job. The quest for speed and lightness craved by Time-Trialists had begun in earnest so we entered the drilling era. In my view the bikes we built were some of the most beautiful machines ever on the racing scene, though how they stayed intact with so much metal removed is a mystery even now. Alf Engers, Joe Mummery, Mick Ballard, Steve Heffernan and a host of other great riders were regulars at the shop and in its day could be considered one of the best bike shops in England.
Inevitably the friction between Ken and Alec became too much, their arguments were legendary, and Ken left to open his famous shop in Green Street Green. I stayed with Alec, but somehow remained friends with Ken. At one time I owned one each of their frames, I did conceive a plan to build up a bike and have it sprayed Kens white and Alecs pale blue with dual transfers but that may have pushed friendship a little far. Sadly Alec gave up the shop, the plan to concentrate on frame building, alas this did not work out. I am pleased to say I still meet up with him from time to time at bike jumbles. Ken of course died in early 2005 after closing his shop in the mid-nineties. It was sad to attend his funeral but it was a testament to his bike related stature that so many well known faces paid their respects to one of cyclings true characters.
I would be happy to reply to anyone who wants to share their own memories. It sounds grumpy old manish, but the bike shops I have been involved with since those days do not compare in terms of fun and craftsmanship and I for one miss them.
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08-30-10, 06:39 AM
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Thanks for the good historical info. We definitely need more. Now, if we could just get the good Doctor D. to return to the forum and post pics!