Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Clean and wax, or strip and paint? 1951 Carlton Massed Start

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Clean and wax, or strip and paint? 1951 Carlton Massed Start

Old 12-03-19, 11:18 PM
  #1  
M1T
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Crested Butte, Colorado
Posts: 21

Bikes: Pivot Les Fat for bikepacking, SOMA Triple Cross, Colnago Carbon CX2, 1998 Serotta Ledgend Ti, 1994 Serotta Colorado CR, 1983 Centurion Pro Tour 15, SOMA SAGA DC touring bike, 5 English Lightweights (1949-1970), others before these.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Clean and wax, or strip and paint? 1951 Carlton Massed Start

Bought this 1951 Carlton Massed Start for cheap, but it has some neat decals (transfers) and a Hans Orht of Beverly Hills shop sticker / decal that was covered and uncovered over time. My dilemma is to just de-rust, clean, and wax, or strip and re-spray. The forks are chromed and look nice as is (cleaned, waxed) so I thought of leaving those as is, and re-doing the frame. Might be a testament

Unusual Carlton transfer

Hans was the 1915 US (or world?) amateur road champion. Had a store front in Beverly Hills and San Fran.

Paint is just holding on...

Nice lug work

Translucent gold paint, but very, very chipped and scraped up... with lots of minor surface rust
to the bike, but it could rid the many, many dings, scrapes, and rust from this once nice bike...thoughts?
M1T is offline  
Old 12-03-19, 11:23 PM
  #2  
M1T
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Crested Butte, Colorado
Posts: 21

Bikes: Pivot Les Fat for bikepacking, SOMA Triple Cross, Colnago Carbon CX2, 1998 Serotta Ledgend Ti, 1994 Serotta Colorado CR, 1983 Centurion Pro Tour 15, SOMA SAGA DC touring bike, 5 English Lightweights (1949-1970), others before these.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Despite having worked in the the tech industry forever, not sure how this posting stuff works on this forum! My original words were truncated, then photo's showed up. But at least after 2-3 days of trying to post to get to 10 posts, I've reached this point! What I'm trying to convey /ask, is, should I strip it and re-spray, or clean and wax it and be done? The chromed forks cleaned up nicely and they will remain as-is regardless.

Last edited by M1T; 12-03-19 at 11:26 PM.
M1T is offline  
Old 12-03-19, 11:24 PM
  #3  
ThermionicScott 
7-speed cultist
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 20,062

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2785 Post(s)
Liked 707 Times in 498 Posts
My vote is for de-rust/clean/wax. I can't see a repaint doing it justice.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Likes For ThermionicScott:
Old 12-04-19, 12:18 AM
  #4  
xiaoman1 
Slightly Mental
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Weird Coast City of the Angels
Posts: 3,119

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 660 Post(s)
Liked 424 Times in 292 Posts
^^^same here....
Ben
xiaoman1 is online now  
Old 12-04-19, 12:27 AM
  #5  
norcalmike
Senior Member
 
norcalmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Salinas
Posts: 445
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times in 67 Posts
Another vote for buff and roll
norcalmike is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 01:02 AM
  #6  
Lascauxcaveman 
Senior Member
 
Lascauxcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Port Angeles, WA
Posts: 7,862

Bikes: A green one, "Ragleigh," or something.

Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1568 Post(s)
Liked 430 Times in 252 Posts
There's too much cool stuff going on there to just erase it all. Clean it up and preserve what's left. If you haven't already, do some research on what us C&V nerds refer to as 'patina.' Also (if you haven't already) look up threads on the efficacy of an oxalic acid bath. It sounds like a hassle at first, but it's easy and cheap and effective.
__________________
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Trek 400 ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
Lascauxcaveman is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 03:08 AM
  #7  
Kabuki12
Senior Member
 
Kabuki12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ventura County ,California
Posts: 1,148

Bikes: 1973 Windsor Profesional,1976 Kabuki diamond formula with full Campy, 1977 Raleigh Competition GS , 1971 Stella original Campy equip. 1978 Raleigh Super Grand Prix, 1972 Italvega Gran Rally ,1972 Super Mondia Special,Medici Pro Strada

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked 304 Times in 213 Posts
I like the look of an original bike that has been cleaned and polished versus respray. The patina in the paint and scars give the bike character. I have a 1972 ItalVega that I spent about a year off and on and I opted not to repaint it . It was much worse than your bike from what I can see. Be patient and take your time and then after you are done ride it for a while and I’ll bet you will opt to leave it. It is your bike and up to you , but an old bike with age looks better on the road than a repainted bike imho , Joe. Joesvintageroadbikes.wordpress
Kabuki12 is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 05:31 AM
  #8  
Wileyone 
Senior Member
 
Wileyone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Posts: 2,378
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1420 Post(s)
Liked 267 Times in 186 Posts
Patina is one thing, rust is another, For me this nice Carlton would get a full makeover.
After all it's just paint.

"tis the bones what's matters".
Wileyone is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 06:26 AM
  #9  
BigChief 
Senior Member
 
BigChief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,226
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1292 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 80 Times in 67 Posts
To me, being a cycling/historian, the original finish on this bike is very important. On this bike, you have all the original finish features intact. It would be a shame to erase this history without correctly replacing it. Sometimes, restoration is preservation. Since all the historical evidence is there to work from, it would be possible to do a historically correct restoration which I think would be fine here. On the other hand, to blast and powder coat this frame sort of the original color would be a botch job this bike doesn't deserve.
__________________
Inflate Hard
BigChief is offline  
Likes For BigChief:
Old 12-04-19, 06:29 AM
  #10  
FBOATSB 
Senior Member
 
FBOATSB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 1,693

Bikes: Old Schwinns

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 635 Post(s)
Liked 78 Times in 58 Posts
M1T , if I may participate in your pol, I would vote to de-rust and preserve. Build it up with period correct, equally in appearance (as in cheap) rider quality bits. And if were mine it be a fair weather rider. Thanks for posting.
FBOATSB is online now  
Old 12-04-19, 07:06 AM
  #11  
Sandstrom
Senior Member
 
Sandstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 42 Posts
Agree with most of the sentiment here. At the very least, start seeing how well a careful cleanup goes, you may be surprised and happy with the result and decide the right thing is to leave it all original. If you feel it isn't salvageable enough for you to be happy with it as a rider, you might decide to repaint then.

Personally I would want to leave it original, but you need to be happy with it, it's your bike and unless a display piece, I could understand some wanting to restore it to fresh condition.

Good luck with it whatever you decide, such a cool bike!
Sandstrom is offline  
Likes For Sandstrom:
Old 12-04-19, 07:14 AM
  #12  
jethin
Senior Member
 
jethin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 839
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Liked 56 Times in 34 Posts
Neat. I was gonna say repaint but I’ll go with the informed consensus. Though a lot of work I think it’d be worth it to try cleaning/preserving it before painting/other interventions.
jethin is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 07:16 AM
  #13  
Hudson308 
Mr. Anachronism
 
Hudson308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: City of Lakes
Posts: 1,964

Bikes: fillet-brazed Chicago Schwinns, and some other stuff

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 487 Post(s)
Liked 167 Times in 116 Posts
I'm usually the guy who strips & refinishes bikes in this condition, but this is one of those rare ones that tells a story that would be a shame to lose.
I would disassemble, soak in Oxalic acid and clean/wax. Here's an example from DQRider of how cool that can be.
__________________
"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going." -Irwin Corey
Hudson308 is offline  
Likes For Hudson308:
Old 12-04-19, 07:50 AM
  #14  
markk900
Senior Member
 
markk900's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,853
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 14 Posts
Clean and buff for now; once that is done ride the bike for a while and if it really bothers you that there’s a lot of appearance issues you can always do the full on restore later. There are some very good decal makers around that should you go the full restore route you can get awesome repros made. Mind you it won’t be cheap to do that bike right.

Anyway this is what happened with one of mine - cleanup and rode it for a few years but I really didn’t like the “fresh from the dumpster” look so I eventually did repaint and am very happy I did.
markk900 is offline  
Likes For markk900:
Old 12-04-19, 08:23 AM
  #15  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 14,705
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1443 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times in 311 Posts
Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
Patina is one thing, rust is another, For me this nice Carlton would get a full makeover.
After all it's just paint.

"tis the bones what's matters".
This was a bike sold by Hans himself.
A full makeover can be done, will cost a LOT to do it right. $1,200 pretty easy, chrome, graphics, detail paint. H Lloyds may have the transfers, and this should have transfers, not stickers. Gus Salmon could probably make the Hans Ohrt decal. (at this time the shop transfer was just that, a duplex transfer, varnish fix)
Anything less than a full bore restoration will just diminish the value. And a correct restoration will not be recouped later.
I think clean it up well.
Also, lets say you got free money and did get restored correctly, if the components don't look equal, it will look weird.
Go through the parts, use the correct rear derailleur, 50/50 this had tubulars or 27" clinchers. May have had tubulars as delivered, but not kept.
Rims would be Dunlop if clinchers, more latitude on tubular rims.
repechage is offline  
Likes For repechage:
Old 12-04-19, 09:12 AM
  #16  
jeirvine 
Senior Member
 
jeirvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Bethesda/Baltimore MD
Posts: 3,626

Bikes: '72 Moto Grand Record, '72 Gitane tandem, '72 Raleigh Super Course, '73 Raleigh Gran Sport, '73 and '76 Colnagos Super, '76 Fiorelli Coppi, '78 Raleigh SBDU Team Pro, '78 Trek 930, '81 Holdsworth Special 650B, '86 Masi GC, '87 Panasonic DX5000

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked 219 Times in 134 Posts
Cool bike. The hand-done box lining is not something you can just get a decal for.
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
jeirvine is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 09:44 AM
  #17  
randyjawa 
Senior Member
 
randyjawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 10,033

Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, Rocky Mountain Cardiac, 196? Torpado Professional

Mentioned: 168 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 410 Times in 272 Posts
Before investing in aesthetics, I always build and test ride a bike! Doing so can save one a lot of frustration when into the restoration aspect of the project. This old Legnano has, all but, demanded a repaint ever since I got it. I have resisted the urge to destroy the original art and paint but I can and do still ride my old Legnano. Someday, I might opt for a repaint but someday is rarely listed in the week of days...


And, for what it is worth, with the passing of time and use, that old patina might begin to grow on you. And, you can paint the bike anytime that you want to be keep in mind that there are a lot of issues to consider, when painting a bicycle. Painted this one with a brush...


And this one with rattle can (not finished, needs are clear coat and rubbing out), chrome plated surfaces and all...
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
randyjawa is offline  
Likes For randyjawa:
Old 12-04-19, 09:58 AM
  #18  
M1T
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Crested Butte, Colorado
Posts: 21

Bikes: Pivot Les Fat for bikepacking, SOMA Triple Cross, Colnago Carbon CX2, 1998 Serotta Ledgend Ti, 1994 Serotta Colorado CR, 1983 Centurion Pro Tour 15, SOMA SAGA DC touring bike, 5 English Lightweights (1949-1970), others before these.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thank you all for the thoughts and comments. After reading them all, I'll keep cleaning, and see where it takes the frame.

Part of the post was born from the frustration of hours of careful grime removal only to have the rust scream back at me, "Hey, I'm still here." In a way, I was looking for an easy out! But the carpenters rule, measure twice, cut once, more than applies here.

I'll post a photo in a few weeks after rust removal and waxing.
M1T is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 10:08 AM
  #19  
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,264
Mentioned: 293 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1676 Post(s)
Liked 813 Times in 462 Posts
It reminds me of a highly patina-ed 1948 Claud Butler that I once owned. Lots of original finish details were preserved under the corrosion, so I just cleaned and waxed:

ClaudButler11.jpg

ClaudButlerPrev5.jpg
nlerner is offline  
Likes For nlerner:
Old 12-04-19, 10:32 AM
  #20  
BigChief 
Senior Member
 
BigChief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,226
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1292 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 80 Times in 67 Posts
Originally Posted by jeirvine View Post
Cool bike. The hand-done box lining is not something you can just get a decal for.
I've been wanting an excuse to buy one of these for a long time.
Beugler pinstripe tool
__________________
Inflate Hard
BigChief is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 10:40 AM
  #21  
ryansu 
Ride.Smile.Repeat
 
ryansu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 2,800

Bikes: 2009 Handsome Devil, 1987 Trek 520 Cirrus, 1978 Motobecane Grand Touring, 1987 Nishiki Cresta GT, 1989 Specialized Allez Former bikes; 1986 Miyata Trail Runner, 1979 Miyata 912, 2011 VO Rando, 1999 Cannondale R800, 1986 Schwinn Passage

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 754 Post(s)
Liked 438 Times in 326 Posts
I will echo above start with a derust and buff and ride it see how you like it, you can always strip it later, if you start with the strip and repaint then you are out of options. Also if you start with it as is and ride it and decide its too big or too small for you then you haven't made a big investment only to find the bike doesn't work for you. (ask me how I know )
ryansu is online now  
Likes For ryansu:
Old 12-04-19, 11:44 AM
  #22  
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,445

Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...

Mentioned: 488 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1716 Post(s)
Liked 179 Times in 134 Posts
I would look at this as a process, not an event.

So the first step is to preserve everything that can be preserved, arrest any active rust, and so on.

Second step is to record everything. Photograph every decal, measure its location, and so on.

Third step is to get the bike into the condition you want it in, for the purpose you want it for. Make it into a finished project. During this step I would probably try touch up paint and that kind of thing. See if it helps.

Fourth step is to use it for whatever purpose you have the bike for, and to evaluate it on standards specific to that purpose. If it's a commuter, is it any good as a commuter? Can it be better? If it's a wall hanger, does its present condition draw the eye, or is it repellent?

I would start to consider a full repaint etc only after going through all those steps. In my experience a lot of people jump to the full restoration before going through those steps, and often regret it for one reason or another. But once I've gone though all those steps, I usually have lost my appetite for a full restoration.
__________________
I put new leather on ruined saddles like Brooks, etc. You can reach me by private message.
rhm is offline  
Likes For rhm:
Old 12-04-19, 12:13 PM
  #23  
Sandstrom
Senior Member
 
Sandstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 42 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
It reminds me of a highly patina-ed 1948 Claud Butler that I once owned. Lots of original finish details were preserved under the corrosion, so I just cleaned and waxed:
That is a really cool bike, true definition of a survivor!
Sandstrom is offline  
Old 12-04-19, 12:18 PM
  #24  
svoperokram
Junior Member
 
svoperokram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SLOVENIA EU
Posts: 18

Bikes: 1967 LEGNANO mod 42 (CONDORINO), 1976 MOTOBECANE SPECIAL SPORT, 1976 PEUGEOT PE41, 1970 PEUGEOT PX8

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 6 Posts
This 67 Legnano condorino was severely sun faded....



svoperokram is offline  
Likes For svoperokram:
Old 12-04-19, 12:35 PM
  #25  
Salamandrine 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,192

Bikes: 78 Masi Criterium, 68 PX10, 2016 Mercian King of Mercia, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr

Mentioned: 118 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2267 Post(s)
Liked 500 Times in 363 Posts
This is a tough one. I agree with @rhm that the first step should be to document everything. Take many photographs and measurements of all transfers, box lining, etc. I would do that before doing any evaporust baths are cleaning.

In addition to taking lots of photographs, I suggest taking physical tracings of all the transfers. These can be scanned and used as a template layer. That will greatly assist in creating new transfers from photographs.

If the decision is made to restore, it should be done correctly, as @repechage says. This will be very expensive. There are people that can do it, including box lining. If the OP is not willing to go to this length, it should be left alone.

I'm normally not really onboard with the "Antiques Roadshow" trip of never ever refinish anything -- essentially because steel, unlike mahogany desks, rusts. However, in this case I'd be inclined to clean, wax and leave it be. It has a lot of unique history. Enjoy the wabi sabi. Keep it dry and ride it only on ceremonial occasions.

If the intent is to ride it as a daily rider in all conditions, go for the full restore, spend lots of money, and do it right.

Last edited by Salamandrine; 12-04-19 at 12:39 PM.
Salamandrine is offline  
Likes For Salamandrine:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.