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Improving very slowly. Any input on my training would be appreciated.

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Improving very slowly. Any input on my training would be appreciated.

Old 03-27-17, 09:15 AM
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therhodeo
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Improving very slowly. Any input on my training would be appreciated.

I've ridden since 2010. Lost a huge pile of weight, got semi-fit, etc. Last year was my first solid year of training and racing. Did 2 races. Repeated one of them this past weekend. Last year I got dropped on the first lap. This year I got dropped on the 2nd lap of 2 when they surged on a hill. Felt like I was in it to race this year up until that point as opposed to last year where I was just surviving. This year I knew I was suffering some before I got dropped but I had a sudden onset of cramps after chasing a split down and catching them just at the base of the hill where I lost contact.

So I need advice on ways to accelerate or optimize my training. I feel like I have plenty of time in my week to really get some good race fitness. Also I do not have a power meter and assume for now that I never will (budget) Currently I'm doing

M - Off
T - 90m z2
W - Hard day. Early on I was doing 8m intervals. Later doing 1m.
Th- 90m z2
F - 90m z2 with some 3x30s/30s high cadence spins
S - Either a hard group ride or 3 hours trainer riding. On the trainer I was doing 2x20, 3x8, 1h z2.
Sun - 3h z2 on the trainer

So basically assume I have 90m on the trainer on weekdays and 3 hours or so on each weekend day.
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Old 03-27-17, 10:12 AM
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That seems like a lot of Z2 riding.

For a basic structure, I would consider something like this:
M - Off
T - 90m of some type of short effort intervals.
W - 90m Z2/Z3.
Th- 90m of some type of longer effort intervals.
F - off or 90m Z1/Z2
S - Either a hard group ride or 3 hours trainer riding. On the trainer I was doing 2x20, 3x8, 1h z2.
Sun - 3h z3
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Old 03-27-17, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
That seems like a lot of Z2 riding.

For a basic structure, I would consider something like this:
M - Off
T - 90m of some type of short effort intervals.
W - 90m Z2/Z3.
Th- 90m of some type of longer effort intervals.
F - off or 90m Z1/Z2
S - Either a hard group ride or 3 hours trainer riding. On the trainer I was doing 2x20, 3x8, 1h z2.
Sun - 3h z3
That was my suspicion. The guy helping me with my workouts is hesitant to have me do too much intensity but I feel pretty fresh most of the time and never feel like I'm gaining much. Also generalities work here. I can dig deeper as far as the specific workouts go with that framework you suggested.

Last edited by therhodeo; 03-27-17 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 03-27-17, 12:34 PM
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Buy the Training Bible, follow it.

Worked for me.
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Old 03-27-17, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Buy the Training Bible, follow it.

Worked for me.
How centered around power is it?
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Old 03-27-17, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by therhodeo View Post
How centered around power is it?
A little, but not much.

It's more about how to structure your training season - which seems to be what you're missing. There is a time for lots of z2, but there is also a time to go hard - the Training Bible will give you a better idea of when to do what (regardless if you're using power or not)
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Old 03-27-17, 02:18 PM
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Didn't say what type of races or the category you're racing. We'll assume Cat 4/5. Step one is to train to the type of races and distance you're racing, it's the biggest mistake I see in people I start coaching...they take Matt's advice and then misapply Freil's book.

I don't know many races that noodle along in zone 2 which is where most of your training is being done. Tulsa you have a few hills but nothing much over 2-3 minutes in the races. Crybaby is like 40s. Cat 4/5 surges might last a minute or two in most cases.

So: Tall Chief is 44 miles for you. Without stupid wind you'll be outta there in 2 hours or less. Your crits will be 30-40 minutes. What you need to not get dropped are two things:

1) 0-5 minute power, emphasizing 0-2m. repeatable efforts.
2) A Go Pro so you can post videos of when you're getting shelled so folks here can give you pack advice.

People can win your race with an FTP of 180w if they have #1 and good pack skills.
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Old 03-27-17, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
buy the training bible, follow it.

Worked for me.
+1
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Old 03-27-17, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Didn't say what type of races or the category you're racing. We'll assume Cat 4/5. Step one is to train to the type of races and distance you're racing, it's the biggest mistake I see in people I start coaching...they take Matt's advice and then misapply Freil's book.

I don't know many races that noodle along in zone 2 which is where most of your training is being done. Tulsa you have a few hills but nothing much over 2-3 minutes in the races. Crybaby is like 40s. Cat 4/5 surges might last a minute or two in most cases.

So: Tall Chief is 44 miles for you. Without stupid wind you'll be outta there in 2 hours or less. Your crits will be 30-40 minutes. What you need to not get dropped are two things:

1) 0-5 minute power, emphasizing 0-2m. repeatable efforts.
2) A Go Pro so you can post videos of when you're getting shelled so folks here can give you pack advice.

People can win your race with an FTP of 180w if they have #1 and good pack skills.
Yes its 4/5 races. It was at Tall Chief. I was fine in the pack. Felt like like I was going just fine actually and had sudden onset of cramps about 3/4 the way up the 2nd little ramp after the dam on the second lap. I was pretty disappointed in it because it was the first race that I'd gotten that deep in and feeling that good and then had the cramps and just couldn't hang on at that point.
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Old 03-27-17, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
A little, but not much.

It's more about how to structure your training season - which seems to be what you're missing. There is a time for lots of z2, but there is also a time to go hard - the Training Bible will give you a better idea of when to do what (regardless if you're using power or not)
Makes sense. Definitely what I'm looking for.
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Old 03-27-17, 02:39 PM
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The good news is that shorter intervals (<5') don't really require a PM, just a timer and a willingness to embrace the suck. The bad news is that they are unpleasant. The good news is that are over relatively quickly. The bad news is that you have 5 more to do.
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Old 03-27-17, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
The good news is that shorter intervals (<5') don't really require a PM, just a timer and a willingness to embrace the suck. The bad news is that they are unpleasant. The good news is that are over relatively quickly. The bad news is that you have 5 more to do.
Well, 4 anyway.

Any training schedule ought to have a specific goal for what you're doing during a particular day or week. If the answer to "what I wish to achieve today" is a question mark, then you need to re-write.

The problem with setting up your own plan is that you don't know what you don't know. Cookie cutter plans, if they are well written, aren't the worst place to start. Laying that over what you pick up from Freil and you've got some foundation. Hiring the right coach is another layer.

Plenty of places to mess up along the way. Lots of people read Freil's book, (or) hire "bad fit" or just "bad" coaches, or buy training plans and don't get anywhere or go backwards. And folks here tend to self select to what either worked for them in particular or what they like to do. Wiggans spent years wallowing around in between brief periods of hooking up with coaches who could nail his training down and blow the right smoke up his ass.

But good for you for at least going "this isn't working".

The cramp thing you'll find 672 different opinions out there. Worth noting that nobody finishes Paris Roubaix without cramps, so there is no perfect solution. Generally I find I cramp a lot less if I have trained hard, and watch my fluid/food/electrolyte intake carefully. I know several people who get cramps when they ingest protein during a training ride or race. Raise my hand on that one.

Last edited by Racer Ex; 03-27-17 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 03-27-17, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Plenty of places to mess up along the way. Lots of people read Freil's book, (or) hire "bad fit" or just "bad" coaches, or buy training plans and don't get anywhere or go backwards. And folks here tend to self select to what either worked for them in particular or what they like to do. Wiggans spent years wallowing around in between brief periods of hooking up with coaches who could nail his training down and blow the right smoke up his ass.
I've been here. Had some good coaches and had some bad ones. My current coach was selected more for cost than anything else. And because I'm married to her.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:48 PM
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How about a some under-qualified thoughts.

Most training plans suck. They especially suck when you suck. Absolutely useless when you're completely untrained. Barring a long referenceable history of athletic performance the learning curve is too steep to predict very far out. Too much industry is built up around out of sight out of mind coaching beginners to a formula while feeding them double rations of carefully organized emotionally stimulating BS. You cannot build the type of conditioning that will allow mid double digit race days this year with one hour trainer sessions a few times a week. You can target a few races and maintain enough fitness to potentially do well in quite a few others.

If I didn't already know it, after hearing it enough times I'd believe it's preferable to show up slow with impeccable pack skills and gain fitness throughout the season. Instead of trainer strong and unable to ride a bike. Truth is if you spend 2 hours railing an empty street corner at 30 mph fitness is happening. Awareness of how you fall apart and lose the physical ability to recruit muscles is happening. Timing out of sync pedal strokes exiting the apex is happening. A world of stupid uncoordinated failures that won't mess up your race... are happening right now when you can safely begin correcting them. After coercing as many skills into your toolbox as you can on your own. Group rides are going to have a much higher chance of being productive close quarters training at managing others actions through your own.

The tactical result of an engagement forms the base for new strategic decisions because victory or defeat in a battle changes the situation to such a degree that no human acumen is able to see beyond the first battle.
The first battle happening before you get out of bed everyday to assess the aspects of life that will impact your training through the end of the season. REST MAKES YOU STRONGER, so if you wake up well rested the first battle was a decisive win. If that minor victory or anything else going on in your head leads you to believe you can see what the day holds, banish the thought. Listen to your body and put down that days workout shortly beforehand in the beginning. Once your ability has started to level off or is steadily progressing you can exercise some forethought. Showing up to that stringent requirement of your relationship Summer social affair on a third day of rest and then reducing yourself over the next three is technically brilliant forethought .

If you wanted advice on when to smash the watts or someone to pave your future through axioms based on your numbers. There will be prominent other responses.

Last edited by miyata man; 03-27-17 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 03-27-17, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Well, 4 anyway.

Any training schedule ought to have a specific goal for what you're doing during a particular day or week. If the answer to "what I wish to achieve today" is a question mark, then you need to re-write.

The problem with setting up your own plan is that you don't know what you don't know. Cookie cutter plans, if they are well written, aren't the worst place to start. Laying that over what you pick up from Freil and you've got some foundation. Hiring the right coach is another layer.

Plenty of places to mess up along the way. Lots of people read Freil's book, (or) hire "bad fit" or just "bad" coaches, or buy training plans and don't get anywhere or go backwards. And folks here tend to self select to what either worked for them in particular or what they like to do. Wiggans spent years wallowing around in between brief periods of hooking up with coaches who could nail his training down and blow the right smoke up his ass.

But good for you for at least going "this isn't working".

The cramp thing you'll find 672 different opinions out there. Worth noting that nobody finishes Paris Roubaix without cramps, so there is no perfect solution. Generally I find I cramp a lot less if I have trained hard, and watch my fluid/food/electrolyte intake carefully. I know several people who get cramps when they ingest protein during a training ride or race. Raise my hand on that one.
Well now you've gone and used Wiggins as an example and lost me. I don't have the budget for sketchy Dutch doctors with Boogerd connections.
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Old 03-27-17, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by therhodeo View Post
Well now you've gone and used Wiggins as an example and lost me. I don't have the budget for sketchy Dutch doctors with Boogerd connections.
Example still sticks in that world. It's all relative, getting the dosage right and the head screwed on.

(sigh)

FWIW I figured it was a matter of time. The list of DIHRA (dopers I have raced against) is too long for my brain not to tell my eyes it's a steaming turd.

You got some really good folks around those parts to brain pick. Yanni, Will, Hunter, Etc. Go introduce your self and ask a few questions.
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Old 03-27-17, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
A Go Pro so you can post videos of when you're getting shelled so folks here can give you pack advice.
+ whatever
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Old 03-27-17, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
The cramp thing you'll find 672 different opinions out there. Worth noting that nobody finishes Paris Roubaix without cramps, so there is no perfect solution. Generally I find I cramp a lot less if I have trained hard, and watch my fluid/food/electrolyte intake carefully. I know several people who get cramps when they ingest protein during a training ride or race. Raise my hand on that one.
I cramp pretty reliably when I ingest electrolyte stuff (Powerade, Gatorade, sugar or low cal) before a race. It's like a timer, 20 minutes and I can't pedal. I can drink sugar or low cal sodas, coffee, water, etc, but electrolyte stuff is now like kryptonite for me.
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Old 03-28-17, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
You got some really good folks around those parts to brain pick. Yanni, Will, Hunter, Etc. Go introduce your self and ask a few questions.
Yeah I really like this place. Been around and reading for a long time.
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Old 03-28-17, 08:10 AM
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I think he meant your physical place. He's listing the local leg shredders. I've raced against at least one of those guys.
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Old 03-28-17, 08:38 AM
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do double centuries for time for a few years and then racing will seem easy when you get into it. worked for me. Else just do what Ex and Matt tell you. 90min of z2 is useless for training, btw. OK for weightloss if you're not eating it back.
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Old 03-28-17, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
I think he meant your physical place. He's listing the local leg shredders. I've raced against at least one of those guys.
You're right. Yeah most of those guys are down in Tulsa proper. I ride with a different group and don't make it to those rides very often. I have a few guys who I talk to regularly who race or raced pretty succesfully. One is the guy who has been helping coach me. I think he's hesitant to have me push much just due to stress and life stuff and I get that. I have made alot of progress from last year but I feel like I'm missing that last little bit of punch.
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Old 03-28-17, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
do double centuries for time for a few years and then racing will seem easy when you get into it. worked for me. Else just do what Ex and Matt tell you. 90min of z2 is useless for training, btw. OK for weightloss if you're not eating it back.
I'm 6' 158lbs. Pretty lean as is. The guys riding away from me are bigger than me alot of times so its a power issue and not weight.
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Old 03-28-17, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by therhodeo View Post
I'm 6' 158lbs. Pretty lean as is. The guys riding away from me are bigger than me alot of times so its a power issue and not weight.
yeah, then like everyone else said, I'd focus on strength and mitochondrial adaptation which means less z2 and more VO2. The other thing to consider is that this is a sport where years matter. There's no "quick" way to a good threshold. It takes years of applied effort and the meter will slowly tick up. I think though, you can improve faster in the shorter duration efforts you need to be successful, especially in the beginning categories.

You can get enough free coaching out of racer ex to get you to cat 1 if you have the discipline to follow what he suggests.
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Old 03-28-17, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
yeah, then like everyone else said, I'd focus on strength and mitochondrial adaptation which means less z2 and more VO2. The other thing to consider is that this is a sport where years matter. There's no "quick" way to a good threshold. It takes years of applied effort and the meter will slowly tick up. I think though, you can improve faster in the shorter duration efforts you need to be successful, especially in the beginning categories.

You can get enough free coaching out of racer ex to get you to cat 1 if you have the discipline to follow what he suggests.
The guy coaching me keeps saying that next year is when I'll really see the improvement. He's definitely looking more long term. I will definitely more to the 2 day a week interval schedule for a while as the upcoming races I'm looking towards are shorter than Tall Chief was and not having any punch will get me dropped sooner for sure.

Thank you everyone for the input.
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