Bandera

Good for you, riding FG on the road requires serious dedication to technique and proper bike set-up.
Most club riders "back when" stripped road bikes of derail drive trains, fitted ~70GI FG, installed mudguards and put in the winter base miles. Your 510 is a perfect candidate.

Full Disclosure:
My local FG rides are on carefully selected routes where a 70GI is doable on hills. Our FG Century is done on the rolling/windy terrain down near the Gulf coast w/ a trusted and highly experienced old teammate puts in some big pulls all day long to get it done.

PM me for whatever when you are setting-up or riding the really Old Tech.

-Bandera

Dega1979

I had an 1989 Centurion Ironman Master and a Fuji Touring III in mothballs I mistakenly loaned out Fuji last year. I magically got stolen even though culprit left fur coat pearls and tv's. I bought a Surly Disc Trucker to get back in the saddle and replace The Fuji. I thought I'd put the Ironman Master on a trainer and get prepped to ride Disc Trucker. Well I can't Un �� The Centurion. It's my resto-mod great bike. No way. I want a Basso or Masi pre 1985 next. I will keep Ironman stock as much as possible. I think I may go 11 speed Ultegra. I did up tire size slightly from 700x23 to 700x25 Gatorskins by Continental. Seat is now Brooks B17. Profile clip on aero bar and seat post. Shimano Mountain SPD clipless pedals. I still have original Sampson pedals. They were terrible when off bike. Novaro tool can added in 3rd water bottle cage under frame.

I'm not grouch just addicted realized I got this bike originally for all the right reasons in 1990 as new non current inventory. Hard to beat good steel with decent tires.

Andy_K 

That's what pushed me to 11-speed (kind of). I wanted hydraulic disc brakes for my CX commuter (I seriously still use cantilevers on my CX race bike), and all of the options at the time were 11-speed. So I got the 11-speed RS785 levers, an 11-speed cassette and 11-speed Ultegra derailleurs. Then I removed the 11T cog from the cassette and put a spacer behind it to get it to fit on my 10-speed wheels, and replaced the 50T chainring on my triple crank with a bashguard.

jimmuller 

I AM NOT A GROUCH! OKAY? Don't call me a grouch! When I want to be a grouch YOU WILL KNOW IT! I've had it up to hear with being called a retro-grouch or a modern grouch or any other kind of grouch. So just lay off the grouch stuff. If I like retro stuff it's because the stuff just works, not like all that modern stuff which is just plain cr*p. Retro has nothin' to do with it. I'm a grouch because I want to be. Oh, wait, I am NOT a grouch. Sorry. I got carried away.

Somehow I became retro without realizing it. Or else everybody around me became a lot more modern.

old's'cool

For me a major attraction of old school technology is that it wasn't designed and manufactured with a cynically single-minded focus of planned obsolescence, finite lifespan, and cost-prohibitive repairability/maintainability, all intended to maximize revenue and profit (short and long term, considering future sales to replace obsolete, worn out and broken products) for the manufacturer, instead of value for the consumer. Bikes, cars, toasters, all manner of appliances not to mention power tools and hand tools have undergone this paradigm shift. Fortunately, at least in the case of tools and appliances, there is always a market for professional grade equipment, but these are in a niche and priced accordingly.

uncle uncle

Like many, when the wife and kids came along and took priority over everything else, I let the old ride go garage queen, upside down, on some hooks. And, when my life circumstances allowed the time to explore some self time again, I returned to bicycling. I always enjoyed bicycling, as it was for me, a form of lone wolfing, i.e, something that I did by myself, for myself, and rightly or wrongly, thought it added some intrigue to an otherwise Melba toast sorta self persona.

But, when I got back into bicycling, I really had no pretense, nor desire really, to pursue any sort of super competitive venue within the sport (recreation for me, really). Anyways, I had a dust and grime covered bicycle that had plenty of miles and adventures left in it.

Riding C&V stuff is just another extension of my inner spirit; a spirit that has always been a nonconformist (or personally deemed outcast). I want something different, something that you can't just go out and purchase. It's added to the "lone wolf" qualities that I always imagined were a very personal component of bicycling.

I realized early on when I got back into bicycling that I was a retro grouch when a group of riders, on much newer equipment, made disparaging comments about my ride (and, in a more roundabout way, me). It made me mad, but more determined to ride old stuff, if for no other reason, to draw a distinct line between their kind and my kind.

None of the above really explains how two bicycles has grown into too many bicycles... but, that's probably a post for another topic.

So, yeah, I'm like 113% retro grouch... (sorry, I really did try to use an economy of words).

jon c. 

I was out of the saddle for over 30 years. When I returned, I couldn't imagine riding anything but a good steel frame with downtube shifters. Anything else just seemed wrong. Don't know if I'm a retro-grouch or if I have a Peter Pan complex.

NickFavicchio 

Has anyone mentioned being broke as a reason to dig c&v?

Hydro clampers, di2, carbon rims, if I didn't manage a non-profit bike shop, I might be able to consider these things . But as someone who works in a bike shop and has the opportunity to ride nice new things from time to time - I've found the same things have mentioned, the old stuff comes exceedingly close to or does it better (and prettier) than the new spendy stuff.

Aesthetics are a big reason too I think. New bikes often look designed by Guy Fieri. Yuk.

speshelite

Haha, good stuff.

As far as I can tell, shifting hasn't improved a lick since the introduction of hyperglide and superglide back in the late 80's. I don't think even sram much less campagnolo today have caught up to Deore II and Deore XT from '89.

Rim brakes haven't improved at all since the introduction of shimano dual pivots in '90.

The problem is, people are getting fatter and fatter and the bar for what constitutes exercise continues to drop concomitantly. My low road gear used to be a 39/23 and now it's 34/32 on entry level road bikes. Even 36/28 is too high of a low gear nowadays, reserved only for the fittest of crit racers.

Not only do we need super low gears, but we need disc brakes too due to the additional layers of adipose the average American carries.

Extra weight pounds the joints so we need carbon frames and road suspension and 30cc tires for extra cushion.

And forget about pedaling. Who needs to pedal with 500 and 750 watt motors now?

Pretty soon, automatic shifting as well.

Stev8del8

10 and 11 speed cassettes are fine with me. I just need to fit them on polished aluminum hubs. I also need polished rims and spokes, polished brakes and other bits. All fitted on a lugged steel frame.


I cannot warm up to black components even though I will admit to owning some black Campagnolo wheels and carbon cranks.


I am definately a grouch and the polished Veloce group is looking better all the time.

scratchpaddy

But... hasn't that been the case for road bikes since the mid-80's?

My thoughts exactly. I was born in 1990. All but one of the bikes I've had in my life have been somewhere between almost as old as me, and much older than me. Nostalgia has nothing to do with it for me. I like how the old ones look, and I feel like the law of diminishing returns kicked in hard on bike tech after the early '90's or so. As long as you don't insist on the hottest collector's items, old bikes are dirt cheap, they look beautiful, and the performance hit isn't enough to make a difference in the kind of commuting/leisure riding I do.

I don't have anything against people who want the latest and greatest. I get it. There's no denying that new bikes are a lot lighter, and even a little faster than the old stuff. They're just not good enough to make me turn away from the joy I get by riding a thoughtfully crafted, well-preserved classic.

NickFavicchio 

Maybe I over stated it.

8-10 speed are all lovely imo. I like cheap chains but I also really do like the close spacing.

I must have my clicky shifting, and I really really love ergopower shifting shimano. Shiftmate pullies are the jam.

What I most enjoy about the c&v is long lived industry standards. 68mm English BB shells. 8-10 speed shimano freehub bodies. 1" threaded headsets. Square taper bottom brackets (looking at you UN-55!!). 27.2 seat posts. The little things, you know? Obviously French bikes and other scandalous things exist but, you know. I love those too.

old's'cool

To be fair, at the time they (i.e. the now defunct standards) were not intended to become obsolete; they were just overtaken by history, similar to 8-track tapes, and Sony Betamax, for instance.

79pmooney

Pretty close to my limits. I am not yet close to brifters. I know how to work DTs really well. Crashes costing several hundred dollars where all I do is scrape tape and mess up a brake lever? Not there yet.

Dual pivots, yeah. But I de-tune them with V-brake levers to get big hoods for my hands and close to old side-pull braking. Clipless pedals on two bikes currently. (I do much better with no float; something not all systems do well but toe-clips and old-fashioned cleats do superbly.)

LED lights, yeah! Computer and HR (separate items; the computer is for riding the trainer, HR for trainer and for discipline on big-time mountain rides (and laughs for the fix gear).

I do have one threadless stem; sweet ti. But if the right 120 rolls around, I might retrogress. (1" steel fork. Cut and thread. I love the easy up and down (and no headset adjust! I can do it mid ride!)

Ben

ThermionicScott 

Sounds like you hit your "retrogrouch breaking point", as BikeSnobNYC puts it. You'll be cool with all the latest advances, and then something comes along that makes you go "Wait, this is dumb! I'm sticking with what I have." :thumbup:

RiddleOfSteel

Preamble to the Constitution....

I don't know how I had any desire for vintage bikes initially, having had pretty much zero experience with them until five or so years ago. I had the chance to see if I could fix up one ten years ago while in college (in SoCal) but never did anything about it. The bike shuffled off somewhere else. I had BMXs and a mountain bike throughout the years. The '85 World Sport that started it all was completely unexpected, but I loved the look and classic lines and proportions as well as their accessibility with regard to repairs. So it kind of stuck, though not at first as I found a good deal on an '01 Felt F45 (aluminum, but classic diamond shape) and then a carbon '09 Felt F5 (still classic shape).

I think it really began with my '85 Ross Signature that I thought I was going to flip and then liked it enough to keep it around (not to mention no profit would be made from the sale as well). The ball was already rolling on the C&V thing and it only snowballed from there.

11 speeds, hydraulic brakes, through axles, and non-BSA/Italian threaded BBs are where it stops for me pretty much. I like the long-running standards and the flexibility (and affordability) when building bikes up, hunting for 'the perfect set of parts' for bike X and bike Y etc.

Lugs are beautiful, horizontal top tubes are fantastic, and steel does ride nicely (and quietly!). So I'm somewhere in the middle of retrogrouch and modern guy. I will do friction shift on one of my bikes (the Paramount) for non-fast sunny day rides, but for my desires and purposes, it's indexed DT or brifter. Old school look, charm, and chassis with better brakes, shifting, ergonomics, etc.

TL;DR below:

So, to answer the OP (given the context), probably about three years ago.

Epilogue:

I am a big fan of '90s cars due to looks, growing up 'consciously' then ('84 born), bang for buck, reliability, mechanical accessibility, and price. I mean, $5k still gets one a lot of car, even a cool car. So yeah, I consciously chose to buy a car with a manual, an engine architecture that traces its lineage back four decades prior or so (the small block Chevy V8), a CD player (missed the iPod era), a live axle, and sweet sealed-beam headlamps.

All this translates to bikes. I'm not going to buy a $5-10k CF bike, as great as they may be. Steel still performs just fine, AND, I can buy the 'old fast rides' for cheap(er) now! Deal, right?!? Double AND: I can still hop up that old steel easily, and for not a lot of money, even with yesterday's best parts!

Sure, Shimano Tiagra uses the new hood design of the upper tier road groups and shifts wonderfully and is priced shockingly reasonably. But there's still old Dura-Ace or Record that still kicks plenty of butt. Sure, new V6 cars have 300 or more hp. But there's still my car, with 60% more displacement making similar power in a different way, and that is still super fun and kicks butt, too.

There's a line in a country song that goes: "May we all know that nothin' ain't cool 'til you wear the new off." Maybe I'll have shifting retrogrouch standards, but for now, I am more than content.

Kilroy1988 

I'm pretty young for this crowd, and even the newest bicycle I currently own (a 1986 Club Fuji) is older than I am. I've fiddled with a couple of new and rather expensive bicycles but vintage bicycles have always been my focus. I have a degree in Medieval European history, and spent most of my youth attending reenactment events, building reproduction armor and weaponry, clothing and tools, and playing at archery and calligraphy. My modest library almost entirely consists of history books.

My uncle builds custom street rods from old American steel at his shop on the other side of town, and my dad used to restore vintage Harleys. Both of my parents are antique collectors, and they met because of their mutual love of the Beatles, which led to me being saturated with classic rock 'n roll from a young age - it's still among my favorite stuff to listen to.

It would be weird for me to be interested in bicycles and NOT be a retro-grouch! Cheers!

-Gregory

cdmurphy

This. 100%

I think roadbikes hit the sweetspot for reliability and general usefulness in the late 60s-early 70s. 5 speeds, alloy rims, chromoly frames. Since then, there have been a few improvements, lots of sideways steps, and a few backwards leaps. I think brifters are probably the only really big leap in usability, but I'm not wild about the extra complexity and weight. I think the universal shift to skinny tires and tight clearances was a real disservice to most casual, non racing cyclists. There are a lot of nice 80s and 90s frames I won't consider, as they were designed around 20-22mm tires, and might let you squeeze in 25's. No thanks.

Oh, and chrome. Love me some chrome. I don't see many options for chrome outside of $$$$$$ custom builders.

Kilroy1988 

There are a lot of excellent engineers and developers working very hard to come out with increasingly strong, flexible and lightweight composite materials, designing precision components, and generally trying really hard to make nice bicycles. What's ironic is that however many millions upon millions of dollars have been spent on R&D in the past two or three decades, has only decreased the average weight of a nice road bicycle by about five pounds, and ultimately sacrificed most of the reliability by replacing metals with composites.

However, I would not be totally cynical about the process of evolution... It goes along with a much broader mentality that has permeated modern society, and those at fault are not the ones designing and manufacturing bicycles.

speshelite

The industry's engineering has been geared towards accommodating older, heavier, less fit, even infirm cyclists to an increasing extent each decade.

When I started taking an interest in cycling in the late 80's, my low gears were: 26/30 off road and 39/23 road. Today, many riders would be reluctant to accept a 32/42 low gear, and many want a 50 tooth low gear. In '17, a 34/32 low gear is standard on road bikes.

The trend in offroad design is towards more and more travel. 120mm is entry level but the standard for trail bikes is inching closer to 150mm and Enduro bikes have 170mm. As well as towards bigger and wider tires. Suspension is even making inroads in the road market. Domane and Roubaix are excellent suspension designs. Only a matter of time before Giant and others join in? And towards wider tires. And more comfy carbon frames. Stems are angled upwards. Compact bars reduce reach.

Road bike angles are generally slacker. Head tubes taller. Gearing lower. If I understand correctly, the average American is 30 lbs heavier than half a century ago. As R&D costs explode, increasing prices have driven the average of buyers upward as well.

And the creme de la creme: MOTORS! And shortly thereafter: auto shifting.

At this rate, the industry will be selling $20K tricycles in a few years. And then four wheelers. At which point bicycles will have become uber expensive lightweight electric cars.

Is this evolution or devolution? I don't know.

styggno1

When?

In my first days of learning how to bicycle. As the youngest of three brothers (with an eleven year span - youngest to oldest) I never got any new stuff. Always hand me downs. From the start I had to defend my old bike to my friends. Just some years later I remember winning my first race around the block - against the other kids - on a single speed coaster. The others had gears - and I especially remember the feeling of winning over a guy on a brand new white and black 10 speed Peugeot. In beforehand he was the natural and appointed winner. "Hey - ten gears - it has to be fastest".

Same procedure with mopeds later. Old hand me down 50ies one that I tuned to beat the guys getting new ones form their parents (in the 70-ies). When it was time for the first car I inherited my grandfathers old VW bug (a 1962). Swapped the engine for a Porsche 356 90hp engine and put on 356B aluminium, finned, brake drums. Raced it between traffic lights...

And so on. All my hobbies follow the same pattern. I am a vintage tech guy.

Proof - and I have shown this one here before. A drawing from when I was 6. It says "my bike is bad but it is good in one way - it goes".



PS I read the post title as "When did..." I now realize it says "When do...". Heck - now it is too late to re-write...

Andy_K 

This sounds a lot like the part B of my story which I didn't mention before. I described in the first post why I stopped liking new stuff, but I left off how I started loving old stuff. I had gotten a good deal on a carbon 2012 Ridley Excalibur frame and built it up with nice Ultegra components. I really liked it. I liked it so much I kept it in the garage when the weather wasn't perfect. So I got an old steel LeMond frame and built it up with 105 stuff to ride on the less than perfect days. A year later realized I had almost completely stopped riding the carbon wunderbike. I just liked the LeMond better. Then I started exploring the vintage bike market and, as you say, it just kind of snowballed.

Lascauxcaveman 

I was born retro-grouchy, due to lack of funds. Why even know about stuff you can't afford? I didn't even realize carbon (or for that matter, aluminum) bikes existed until I came here and saw retro-grouches complaining about them. I had an old bike that worked; why even research new bikes you will never have the money for?

It was about 2011 when I noticed the rear chain-moving thing on the "new" mountain bike I got from my sister had a much longer whatsis on it that allowed for bigger toothed-wheel thingees on that thing on the back wheel. I came here to ask how I could get a longer whatsis for my old steel bike and bigger toothed-wheel thingee so I could ride up the big hill to my house without having a heart attack or getting off and walking.

Things escalated rather quickly from there

davester

It wasn't always so. When I bought my Ron Cooper (brand spanking new), it was the best bike I could afford, with excellent, durable components. That was in 1981. I just kept riding the same bike and it turned into a vintage bike. After a time, I bought a Trek aluminum bike with brifters, dual pivot brakes, etc. I also borrowed my brother's carbon bike for a bit. However, even though the brifters were convenient and the modern bikes weighed a tiny bit less than the Cooper, they weren't as comfortable or as pretty, and there was zero detectable performance advantage. So, I sold the Trek, gave the carbon bike back, and went back to the Cooper. That was the turning point for when I became a retrogrouch, uninterested in modern equipment. All the advertising hype and awful Trek/Specialized/Giant sterile chain stores these days also turn me off. I've since added a couple of other vintage bikes. The fact is, I often ride with friends who are significantly younger than me who have the latest fancy carbon bikes and there is no real performance difference. I keep up with them just fine. Who needs to throw away money on a new bike unless you're racing?

Andy_K 

Yeah, that's about the size of it.