JackJohn

Hi all, new to the forum and the vintage world in general. I’m currently starting to work on a Raleigh Team Record 1978 frame (see picture), Worksop production with serial no. Wxxxxxxx. After lots of researches, gathering information on this forum (many thanks) and the net, I can say it is a rather peculiar beast, less known than the Pro or GS available at the time in the US catalogue (it was not in it, and no, it is not the US distributed Record) and mostly dedicated to the European market (found it in a French Raleigh catalogue). But, the frame is very high level, full Reynolds 531 with Campa fork ends, mostly the same of GS and only a small step behind the Pro, the two excellent Worksop mass-produced bikes inspired to the top SBDU Team Professional models. Unfortunately, original equipment for the Team Record was not as good: instead of being almost full Campa as for the Pro (using Nuovo Record) or the GS (using Nuovo Gran Sport), it had a strange mix according to the catalogue : Suntour Cyclone derailleurs, unnamed crankset (probably Raleigh?), Weinmann brakes (similar to the GS), Maillard hubs, ... I found models on the net confirming this, but also mounting a number of different components - clearly owners do not feel bound by strict rules on this. My frame came for example with a Sugino crankset and Sakae handlebar. Sorry for the long intro, I get to the point: I would like to give this bike the high level it deserves by adding quality components, the idea being (after looong thoughts) to stay on an Anglo-Italian style, the starting point being the frame + (yet to find) Campa Nuovo Record derailleurs/shifters and a Brooks saddle. Here I turn to you and your expertise for help:

• should I make it an almost full Campa like the Pro or GS? Is it appropriate and, most of all, is it worth?
• If yes, should I go for Nuovo Record or Nuovo Gran Sport?
• If no, what are the best 70s Italian components and models you suggest for each component? I shortlisted Ofmega, Galli, Gipiemme, Modolo but there are many others. I read a few posts on the differences for these brands, but given the years (end of 70s max) and the style of the bike, what would be your vote on the brand/model/year for:
  • Crankset and pedals:
  • Brakes and levers:
  • Stem and Handlebar:
  • Wheels and freewheel

Any other suggestion to this project is appreciated (don’t hesitate to say: you’re all wrong, go full Japanese on this ;-) )

Many thanks for your help!

T-Mar

You build it whichever way which gives you the most personal satisfaction and enjoyment. From a performance perspective, good Japanese equipment will outperform Campagnolo of the era and be less expensive. But if full Campagnolo turns your cranks, go for it. Also, if you like the convenience of modern components (more and wider gears, Hyperglide, brifters, etc.) , then there's nothing to stop you from going down that road. After all is said and done, a bicycle is meant to be ridden and I'm a proponent for building a bicycle to suit your personal needs, so that it gives you maximum personal enjoyment and gets ridden more often.

JackJohn

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts T-Mar!

steelbikeguy

I suspect your frame was sold as a frameset, without any parts installed. (or maybe not?)
If so, then there's no "correct" set of components.
If yes, then I say "use whatever makes you happy".
Personally, the standard Campanolo bits work fine for me, but I could imagine throwing some nice early Dura-Ace parts on it, Or maybe some good Zeus bits?? There's something to be said for going with an interesting set of parts!

Steve in Peoria

and for the heck of it, here's my Raleigh Team.....
(it's got an American Classic seatpost and a Hi-E front hub, just because those were parts I had and were interesting)

JackJohn

Thanks for the suggestion Steve! it was basically the frame coming with a Sugino crankset and Sakae handlebar. I think having these replaced for some Italian stuff, not necessarily Campa, such as Ofmega, Galli, Gipiemme, Modolo... They all are a step lower, but some look nice. It’s on the technical aspect I need some support, as I don’t know the quality, models, specialisation... and fear to add poor material.
by the way, wonderful Raleigh!!! Enjoy!!!

SurferRosa

Choose your gearing (crankset and freewheel) based on how the bike will be used. That will determine crankset, freewheel and derailleurs. If you need a bigger cog than 28 in the rear, you will not be able to use a short cage derailleur, like Nuovo Record. There's no point in using GS derailleurs. If you can afford Super Record, do so, especially at rear derailleur. Suntour made some of the best 6- and 7-speed freewheels.

It doesn't get much better than Drilled Modolo brake levers. They look great in black.

Italian stems and drop bars from 3ttt and Cinelli are standard. If you go with Cinelli bars, look for model 64.

I have a bike that has the best Italian stuff on it from Omas, Miche, Campy ... it's a hodgepodge of Italian. It has some Japanese stuff, too. The vintage Araya clincher rims are really light. Most of my builds use Japanese pedals (KKT Top Run).

Salamandrine 

BITD many if not most real racing bikes were 'frankenbikes', at least among American amateurs. This aversion to mixed components is a modern phenomenon.


All campy NR is a great way to go. Super solid and reliable, and lasts a very long time. It's available and often a good deal in today's dollars because so much was out there.


I'll repeat what's already been said. Well chosen Japanese components were functionally just as good at usually a lower price. A mixed Japanese component bike would have been very common at the time. Suntour derailleurs shifted better, though they were not as robust as Campy. Cranks were often Sugino, I'm guessing these might be. This was a good near copy of a campy crank, with similar quality at a lower price. I'd be inclined to keep the original components, except for the brakes. Weinmann sidepulls were pretty sucky IMHO. I'd swap them for something else. They work though. Brakes only slow you down. Cheap brakes were a good way to save money and not really impact performance.

I'm talking here mostly about Suntour, Sugino, SR, Nitto, etc. Obviously some will disagree but the first couple generations of Dura Ace were IME not that great.


The lesser known Italian components like Ofmega, Galli and Gipiemme were used and around but really not super common. Zeus is another parts company that made good parts. And of course the Frenchie stuff.

3alarmer 

• ...if you will like it better this way, go for it. AS stated above, Campagnolo New Record is available in large numbers and at reasonable prices if you shop around on e-bay.
• Quote:

  Originally Posted by JackJohn

  If yes, should I go for Nuovo Record or Nuovo Gran Sport?
• ...New Record works better than Gran Sport IME. The original Gran Sport design dates back to the early 50's. It works, and they sold a lot of them, but used pricing on the internet is roughly the same for both right now. AS already stated, Suntour stuff like Cyclone or Cyclone II works better than either, and there are a lot more gearing options if you buy a longer cage model.
•  
  • Quote:

    Originally Posted by JackJohn

    Crankset and pedals:
  • New Record is a good solid crank. But the gearing options for the 144 BCD stufff usually limit you to 52 (53)/44. Sugino made some very solid Super Mighty cranks (the Mighty Tour is one) that allow for more range.
  • Quote:

    Originally Posted by JackJohn

    Brakes and levers:
  • ...I'm about to build a Colnago frame once I finish the paint restoration. It will be all New Record, because it's from about 1976. But I will probably put some dual pivot side pulls on it for the calipers, using Campy levers. The painted branding on them is easily removable with acetone, and I have some Shimano ones not doing anything except sitting in a parts box right now.
  • Quote:

    Originally Posted by JackJohn

    Stem and Handlebar:
  • ...usually you see either Cinelli or TTT stems on these, with either Cinelli or TTT bars. But Nitto makes some excellent quality stuff, and there's a lot of used Asian equipment around priced pretty cheaply. It's more important that you fit these properly to your anatomy than what the branding label says.
•  
  • Quote:

    Originally Posted by JackJohn

    Wheels and freewheel
  • ...wheels are a whole thing in and of themselves. There are so many options of quality I hesitate to recommend anything. I often assemble my own from older reconditioned hubs laced to newer, lighter, higher tech rims using new stainless steel spokes. Don't go to all the trouble of putting together a good wheel set and ignore getting high quality tyres. You can get some pretty impressive Thai made clincher tyres now on sale for like 40-50 bucks for two, Not the best, but still pretty good for that price. Vittoria sells a Rubino Pro at 150tpi fabric and a reasonable weight that you can inflate to 130 psi.

...speaking honestly, a lot of my favorite bikes from that time frame are set up with Shimano indexing. They are a joy to ride. It might be hard to get Shimano 6 and 7 speed indexing shifters any more, but the 8 speed stuff is readily available iff you want to space your frame to accept it. Otherwise, Suntour made outstanding freewheels, but by the late 70's / early 80's, you're well into the freehub era. I don't use Campy or Suntour indexing from this period, because Shimano works so much better.

This is all opinion, and it probably doesn't make much difference which direction you go as long as you enjoy riding the bicycle as built.
I have here a Richard Sachs frame I put back together with Suntour stuff from the time when the frame was constructed. It works fine . Likewise the Ron Cooper that currently works using a Shimano 600 indexing group.

Mr. 66

I think your bike is like a Super Course level of bike. I would go with Weinman center pull or 605 brakes and levers, SR Custom or Sugino Mighty cranks, Suntour Cyclone derailleurs, with perhaps Normandy hubs on Weinman concave rims.

Wildwood 

pshaw
We were all friction shifting in 1978.
Properly set-up, my Campy systems shift (within the specified cog range) as smoothly as any Suntour or Shimano product.

The Japanese products are lesser valued in the market. Period.

Re-writing history doesn't make it fact.

JackJohn

Thank you all for these suggestions.
What I can summarize for now is:

1) you need to like your bike —> agree 100%

2) mixing up brands is not a shame (at least for this model) —> I feel reassured and have more latitude for my project, with some interesting brand names for specific components coming up in the discussion

3) choose material adapted to your needs —> yes, definitely, but that’s where I struggle. The Nuovo Record RD I wanted (yes, I like it ;-) ) is limited as by specs to 26T, there are a few threads on this forum discussing about bringing it to 28T, not an easy task. I fear that, not being a youngster anymore, slopes could be a little hard, and I’m not talking about The Alps. So if I want to keep this specific RD, is the only solution having a triple crankset? Converting to a triple crankset looks scary (BB size? Chain alignment? Compatibility with the FD?). Your advice will be much appreciated...

Any other suggestion is more than welcome, many thanks!!!

JackJohn

thanks for the suggestions! The Team Record frame is higher quality than the super course and almost identical to the Competition GS (full Reynolds 531 and Campa fork ends, while the super course had Raleigh forks and chainstays and Suntour fork ends).

Mr. 66

Can't wait to see your build, I used to have an '83 TI Competition. It built up well and road fantastic as it looked. I am currently in the middle of a '77 TI repaint build

Salamandrine 

I'm inclined to mostly agree with you. Campy shift fine. This is actually an old debate... I do think Suntour derailleurs are slightly smoother shifting as the cog size is pushed past or near the limits of a NR or SR. OTOH if we are talking about the typical (eg 13-21t) freewheels used with NR/SR, there is little to no practical difference, when properly set up. I've never experienced this supposed overshifting that has to be done with NR/SR either. Perhaps it has something to do with trying to use them for bigger freewheels than they were really designed for. Maybe, if there were scientific tests, a Superbe might shift slightly faster than a NR over a typical racing freewheel, but I suspect the difference would be insignificant compared to the chain and freewheel. We'd be talking milliseconds anyway, which in the real world simply don't matter compared to virtually every other performance aspect of a bicycle.

JackJohn

thanks a lot! And glad to see your build when possible...

3alarmer 

...three possibilities come to mind:

1. if you look around on this forum, you will find examples of a longer cage modification for the NR rear derailleur. I've not done it, but I believe it's a product that is manufactured and sold. Someone else will have to tell you how to get one.

2. Campy also made a rear derailleur called the "Rally". I have a couple of them, and they work OK, mostly. Sadly, they are usually up in the $200 range when shopping on ebay. Which is still probably cheaper than a triple conversion, but is kind of a rip, pricewise. They came in three or four different models over the years, because the first ones had some issues with breaking at the slender neck that holds the mounting bolt to the body. Avoid those, as well as the Gran Tourismo. Long cage derailleurs never shifft as well or as quickly as a shorter cage version, but a lot of them do pretty good.






3. Just go with a good ol' Suntour Cyclone rear deraillleur, in one of their longer cage versions. Match it with the Cyclone front and a set of their shift levers, and call it matched shifting. They look good with Super Mighty cranks, and a lot of frames got built that way back in ancient times by people looking for performance, but with more limited budgets. I never had one bicycle with Campagnolo components until the past ten years or so, when I started buying used bikes from guys who had more money to spend back then than I did, but who were now retiring their dream bikes in favor of CF to go lighter and faster.

non-fixie 

These bikes originally came with a hodgepodge of parts in those days, typically with Weinmann brakes, SunTour transmission, and a Raleigh-branded (SR?) crankset. This is mine, pictured as bought - sorry for the crappy pic:

Wildwood 

@JackJohn - Welcome to C&V, as presented by BikeForums. Not a Team effort always, but A Good Place.

My philosophy has always been, build it to ride it quickly - with what's at hand.
Upgrade as the ride deems worthy or necessary.

After 1st build, if the ride seems worthy, my upgrade priorities are:
Fix the cockpit to make it near perfection = 'fit' upgrade.
then
Get the gearing so it could be an everywhere rider = 'rideability' upgrade.
(my gearing exception = vintage doubles true to originality)
then
Tires first, then wheels = 'performance' upgrade.
(For me it is usually a jump up to very nice tubulars)
Lastly,
Rebuild with your dream components = "ego" upgrade, whatever they may be.

Others go a different route, knowing what they want the build to be - driven by originality or preference. And, Why build it twice?
Others would order my Priority List differently.

Have Fun.
Ride On.

JackJohn

@3alarmer: your three options are very helpful, I’ll have them in mind when thinking about the setup
@non-fixie: nice bike!
@Wildwood: thank you for the welcome word. Your philosophy looks very reasonable to me...

Great! I now start to have a number of elements to help with my project. Besides the three points coming out of the discussion and mentioned above - “like your bike”, “be flexible when building it” and “follow your needs” - I would also add a 4th: “know your stuff”! I’ll now go through the technical aspects for each component as an essential step to pick the ones that can match their technical quality with the three other points and in case open/join threads if can’t find all the answers. Thank you!!!

T-Mar

Frank Berto of 'The Dancing Chain' fame and who was Bicycling magazine's technical editor, conducted scientific derailleur testing in the early 1980s. He actually measured the over and under shift of derailleurs and converted them to a score. The racing derailleurs were all tested with a maximum 24T cog, which was well within the claimed range of the NGS, NR and SR tested. Campagnolo did not fair well. The only derailleurs rated lower were models from Galli, Roto, Triplex and Zeus. All the Shimano and SunTour derailleurs scored significantly better than Campagnolo, including those which had been around since the late 1970s.

Wildwood 

And the new science says fat tires at low pressure are faster.

oh, pshaw!

i really liked the Suntour shifting systems I've had. No experience with vintage Shimano. My Campa works fine too, even with non-Campa cranks, BB or chains.


Not trying to start a components war. Shimano expanded, innovated in all cycling disciplines and improved the industry. Campagnolo stayed small and Italian, focused on road racing and has become almost a non-entity in most retail market segments. I can't speak for Italian market. Personally, still love Ergo. Haven't tried electronic shifting from anyone; 10spd Ergo from early '00's is all I would ever really need and the long cage rd's allow adequate gear range. [edit: but i'm old and beyond 'very fast'.]

BFisher

Perceived performance differences between vintage Campy NR and other comparable options are greatly diminished when using modern chain and cog tooth designs. Within the gear range they were designed for, properly set up, and in good condition, they all work great.

Choose what you like and build yourself a killer bike.

juvela

-----

Hello JackJohn,

Lots of savvy counsel thus far.

You can't get poor advice from members of this calibre.

The specific pieces you mention that you are considering for the build, while second tier, get costly in the aggregate when purchased separately.

One strategy many of us have followed at one time or another (multiple times in some cases ) is to look for a "donor bike" with the fittings you would like to use. When you are done you can sell off the "donor frame" to recover a portion of the cost.

One idea you might wish to consider...

All best wishes with it!

-----

JackJohn

Very good and interesting point, thanks!

Hi, that sounds like a marvelous idea, thank you!

3alarmer 

...there's a boatload of data and technical documents on derailleurs available on the Disraeli Gears site. You can set it up to search by decade, if you are trying to stay period specific The tech documents are on a separate tab. And you can learn a lot about components from looking around on the VeloBase.com site. I do that when I get confused about something from the 50's and 60's.