Salamandrine 

Someone had to make that joke...

For anyone not familiar with obsolete training terms from the 70s, LSD means... Long Slow Distance.

The Golden Boy 

:d :d

davester

My only reference point is way back in the day when I did a fully loaded tour England, France and Switzerland. I foolishly took my racing bike with 52-42 front, slightly modified with a 14-28T freewheel. After a month (including many brutal alpine climbs which necessitated grinding up at low rpm), one of my knees started exhibiting sharp pain on every pedal stroke. I stopped at a town and had a doctor I had examine me (free of course). He told me that my gears were too high for carrying luggage over mountains and that I needed to stop and let it recover (Duh!). I took a week off and it became slightly better, allowing me to finish the tour, but in pain. I think the concept is fairly simple...high stress on a mechanical joint (the knee) causes damage. Doing it all the time will likely result in chronic damage and pain.

beicster 

YMMV but my personal answer is that climbing in big gears causes knee pain. I am currently experiencing this. It has been far too long healing but I am definitely much better. I prefer to stand and climb in a bigger gear but it causes time off the bike in the long run.

USAZorro

I believe extremely low gearing can be more hazardous to everything in the drivetrain that sits behind the cranks due to the torque generated.

squirtdad

Depends on the state.... but California allows PT who hold a DPT (Doctorate of PT) to prescribe some therapy directly an not require a DR/PA/etc prescription. Most PT schools only offer a DPT any more. (I know this because my son and looked it up when he was thinking about PT school... now he is marketing major with a goal of being the go to guy for Reggae music videos)

thook

none that i've read about, and my wife and i have done a lot of reading. we've also used it for several years for common, ordinary conditions with very satisfactory results. feeling some aches? take a little. feeling fatigued or stressed. take a little. a tree falls on your foot? take half a percodan and a couple shots of rum.....lol! kratom is great, but it has limitations. all these cycling ailments, though? it's a very mild, safe, yet effective alternative to these drugs that, imo, can be way overused. not to mention their known side effects.

btw, i've worked in a herbal/nutrition/supplement store for 20yrs. and, i've studied on natural treatment/health for longer than that. i know a lot of what people have tried with little to no to great success. kratom, ime, is one of the best. like any herb or supplement, though, it doesn't work for everyone. same with cannabis

noglider 

It actually is good for the knees, but too much can be bad. My chronic knee pain is lessened if I ride regularly.

canklecat

At age 61 I'm not a strong climber but over the past four years managed to crawl up from dead last on every Strava climbing segment to middle of the pack -- a little better on some climbs with smoother pavement or a tailwind.

Bike fit is important but with age and/or injuries, bike fit alone may not help with some aches and pains. Many of us will probably benefit from exercises in addition to bike riding. I did.

I prefer to spin, partly to save my knees, partly because it comes naturally. After I'm warmed up my cadence is 90 rpm like clockwork, and it shows in my training route climbs where I'm usually within a few seconds of the same pace on every ride. I used a computer with cadence sensor, speedo, etc., for awhile, but it only confirmed what I already knew so I took it off to save weight.

Spinning also tends to shift the effort and strain from extremity muscles to cardio and respiratory systems. First thing I noticed with cardio efforts was my diaphragm and torso muscles improved and there was less of that painful lungs-on-fire sensation, which also aggravated my chronic lifelong asthma. There's a theory among grand tour racers that it's easier to recover quickly from spinning rather than mashing. I'm not sure how applicable that is to non-competitive riders who don't race every day for a week to three weeks. I almost always take at least a day off to rest after 30-60 mile club rides.

After several B-group club rides I realized I needed to get stronger and vary my cadence. I'd start out okay but after 30 miles or so the group would pull away and over the course of 50 miles the gaps would go from a few seconds to a minute or more before I caught up at the regroup points. And, naturally, being rested for a minute and not wanting to get stiff, the group wants to take off immediately while the stragglers are still gasping for air. So you don't get any rest. The only alternatives are to get stronger or quit riding with those groups.

I've spent a lot of time in physical therapy, at home and in a clinic, over the past year after being hit by a car last year. I realized riding alone may not help. Some of us need additional exercise routines to strengthen and stabilize our aging joints. I've added lunges, squats, etc., and lots of stretching and massage at home to improve my joint strength and flexibility.

So I'll use harder gears now for training, being very alert to form. I ease up as soon as I can feel my form deteriorating -- too much rocking in the saddle or side to side while standing to pedal. That's where the injuries come in.

Part of the trick for me is to let my body weight do most of the work. That's easier with more gear selection and brifters; trickier with 7-speed or fewer gears, and downtube shifters. With more gears and being able to shift while still standing to pedal, it's easier to find the right gear to enable a natural cadence without needing to stomp down and burn up the thighs, or overworking the cardio/respiratory system using a too-easy gear while standing.

Handlebar height is another factor for me. I find it easier to stand to pedal with higher bars. It's less aero while seated, but a tradeoff for combining seated and standing pedaling styles. On my road bike with the lower bar, I'm leaning farther forward on the bike while standing, with less weight naturally falling onto the pedals.

During group rides I'll vary between spinning in easier gears and mashing or standing to pedal in harder gears, both on climbs and flat terrain. This seems to spread out the effort, giving the lungs and legs a chance to recover between hard efforts.

My knees are doing pretty well, considering the history of knee problems and arthritis in my family. My main issue remains the neck injury from being hit by cars twice since 2001. That will never be fully healed, but I can reduce the discomfort with physical therapy in addition to riding.

squirtdad

probably need to differentiate between CBD and THC, if not dealing smoking the buds

Tulok

I switched to single speed in about 2013. By 2014 my knees hurt with every pedal stroke. I switched back to gears. It didn’t solve the issue.
I took a full year off the bike, then I got another single speed bike... a beach cruiser.

I trained on that like crazy and ended up getting quite quick on some of the local dirt trails. The difference was the gearing. The beach cruiser felt hard for the first month. Then my cycling muscles kicked back in and I could spin the cruiser out. Sometimes frustratingly! And for climbs it was fine as long as I was willing to spin enough to actually go fast.

Then in 2016 I got another road bike and made it a TALL geared single speed. It was very fast. And I grinded up hills, STEEP hills. Forcing my legs to grow muscles. But, after a year. My knees hurt again. So I Barry rode it. Back to the cruiser.

I like single speed. So I got a mountain bike and made it a single speed. And I chose an “easier” gear, 2:1 on a 26” wheel. Which was taller than the beach cruiser but not by a lot. But on steeper trails by knees would feel inflamed.

So so now I have gone back to gears on my road bike and guess what??

It is far far faster to spin up the hills! I’m using strava again and I’ve shattered some of the old records I’ve had, and I’ve only been riding road consistently for about 4 months.

Spinning is faster for me, and it doesn’t HURT. I have 42/28 as my low gear, I’m young and 165lbs. But I want a 32 out back. 28 occasionally hurts on the steep grades. In general though, I keep telling myself to downshift once if I’m too comfortable. “Spin it to win it” is my mantra and my climb times and speeds on the flats are proving it to me.

As as far as heart rate. I say, blow up your heart and lungs often by spinning up short to moderate hills at max RPM. You’ll soon have more fitness seemingly out of nowhere.

thook

sure thing. so, i meant CBD when i posted.

it is true for both, though.

79pmooney

That bike has only seen fixed. Both rear wheels are fix-fix. (I rode a 10-speed back when we used multiplication, then set it up as a single speed for a few years as my "B" bike. Started racing. The club vets told me I needed to set it up fix gear. I did. Tried to coast and crashed first ride. But I was sold! Never wanted to ride single speed again. That was 43 years ago.

(And I do not swap coqs, just cogs. Big, big difference! )

Ben

Trevtassie

Knees are a Buy Now, Pay Later situation....

gomango

Quite true.

I''m on my fourth surgical repair of my left knee.

Second on my right.

A lifetime of hockey (playing/coaching) didn't do them any favors.

Knee replacement is looming on the horizon.

CliffordK

How did I miss the latest Masher vs Spnner thread?

You're doing it wrong.

Stand on the pedals.

Pull up with your right while you push down with the left, and visa-versa.

Now, when you can't push/pull any more, grab onto the handlebars and pull up with all your force (effectively increasing your weight on the pedals).

Then you do the "Wobble". As you are pushing down on the right pedal, push the frame to the left, effectively pushing the pedal up to the foot, and decreasing the length of travel.

A hill climb should be a full aerobic (or anaerobic) workout of every muscle in the body.

The problem is that there aren't good controlled clinical trials, or even longitudinal cohort studies.

We get left with a bunch of anecdotes, and people preaching from their pulpits of what is "right".

So, doctors just try to use logic to make sense of it, and repeat hearsay.

Even an orthopedist only gets half of the story, and sees the bad without seeing the good.

Personally I've mashed for years. I grew up with the 42/21 or 42/23 gearing. Anything bigger was a department store bike. And, that is what I climbed hills with, and toured with.

My cadence is slowly evolving, although I don't pay much attention to it. I injured an arm a couple of years ago, which prevented me from standing. Also some intense hill climbs in Portland encouraged me to try new gearing choices. I still like standing, and will do it from time to time.

I suppose it is time to put my 9x19 cassette back on my bike. Even my 9x23 cassette is rather departing from a proper corncob.

I've had bad knees for years. I can't say exactly when, but evolving from my mid 30's.

Now, in my low 50's, and I find myself addicted to riding. If I'm off of the bike for > 3 days, I feel it in the knees. Otherwise, the knees are better than they've been in a decade.

My father used to ride in his 20's and 30's. Then I think he almost stopped riding in his 40's. By the time he turned 55, he was in rough shape, and shortly thereafter got bilateral knee replacement.

I'm pretty sure many of my other relatives have had knee and joint pain.

My older brother has complained about knee pain some.

So, I know it is in the family. Time will tell what the cycling experiment will lead to in 20+ years.

I have a strong belief in "use it or lose it". And, a little stress is good, as long as one doesn't overdo it.

Translate that into real life, and it is complicated. Incorporate some stress, without hobbling yourself.

Raleigh74

I’ve done this too, but the chain was at the end of its life...

gugie 

Having ridden with Cliff, and knowing the mileage he's capable of, he's a good example of someone whose tendons and joints are built up like Superman's. ;-)

The LSD method at the beginning of the season helps built you up so you can thrash later, at least that's the common knowledge, it would seem.

gugie 

Please note that the OP was asking about the danger of craning up hills with really tall gears - in other words, the risk.

Is there anyone who would say that there's little risk of overuse injury, specifically the knee? In my experience, it's a significant risk, although I agree that one can train to alleviate the risk.

Bandera

In my club 50 years ago new riders were set on a long term program to adapt to the machine, learn solid operational control, pedaling technique and the culture and etiquette of life in the pace-line before any real loads were imposed in training. That being said with 52/49 or 47 and five cog 14-24 gearing we were going to have to develop the strength and technique to climb the same grades local riders do today with 50/34 11- 28 and win sprints in a "small" 52X14.
How to do that? Long early season base miles at a conversational pace, often in a fixed ~70 GI, followed by dedicated hill work, group sprints and individual time trials only after a solid base was established.

Our program was tailored to the reality of the machines and racing terrain we had, and considered "easy" by the previous generation of racers.
Those guys were really Strong.

-Bandera

jackbombay

Yep, but I think that the OP is talking about sitting and running low cadence/tall gears.

I think this is true, early last summer I went HARD for 50 miles, muscles felt great, but I ended up damaging my achilles tendon and had to essentially take a month off the bike.

Oh yea! I occasionally stand and mash a 7 minute climb on one of my regular rides, I need to want it pretty bad to stay off the saddle for that long though. But 1 or 2 minutes is pretty regular and always helps me out :-)


Other than that, I LOVE low gears, just put an 11/36 cassette on my carbon road bike, with a 50/34 crank up front, yea, 34 ring with 36 cog for my low gear, I do search out absurd steep long climbs and low gears make them comfortable.

ThermionicScott 

You think so? I guess it wasn't clear, and OP @MB33 hasn't been back.

Riding fixed gear taught me to pop out of the saddle and use the leverage of my full body weight whenever the gear is too high to ride comfortably in the saddle, and I think that is how I've gotten a lot stronger without injury. Ever since spinning came into vogue, an orthodoxy has sprung up that ye must stay seated at all times, and I think that's risky for knees even if you are trying to use low gears all the time.

jackbombay

Yea, it isn't clear. I personally don't see how standing and mashing can be bad for knees, the only problem is most people can't stand and mash up substantial hills, 2000' or more (I certainly can't!), so they have to sit.

I bit off a beast of a climb early this summer, 3.5 miles, the strava segment says the average grade is %10, much of it is well over %10, I had 34/28 gearing on my bike, it was a bear, I could stand and climb comfortably in that gear, but I had to sit and mash as the hill was just too long/tall to ride it all out of the saddle, but the sitting just felt wrong on my knees, they were fine after the ride and the next day, but...

Yea, I am out of the saddle often for short bursts, and I too rode a track bike on the street for a summer back in 1986 I think it was.

Blasphemy! I love standing up and just hammering as hard as I can here and there, for short maximum bursts of power standing is the only way to go!

martl

if the chain goes when doing this, it wasn't riveted properly in the first place, it is absolutely not possible to snap a properly installed chain (or stretch it - Jobst Brandt once wrote a piece about that) with the force of your legs, even when you're .
And it usually happens when front shifting under full load, which is to be avoided at all time (don't these young dudes ever learn how to shift? )

I always was good on endurance but short on muscular strength in my more active days, and i found myself not improving any more no matter how much i rode. doing just a few training sessions in spring time climbing on the biggest gear available did give my speed a very noticeable push. If you're not riding to improve performance, there's no point in doing it as it *does* stress the knee joint (cartiladge, ligaments etc.) a lot, i wouldn't recommend doing it if you have a precondition there. Modern training methods may achieve the same results without that kind of stress, albeit also without the macho factor.

Lemond1985

If I'm riding for fun, there's little chance I will hurt my knees after 50 years of riding, because I can always back off the miles until the knee feels better. Not so if riding a bike is your job, and I suspect people pushing themselves too hard is a factor here. I can still do stuff like riding up a hill in my highest gear, for short periods, and it doesn't bother my knees really at all, compared to my back, legs, or lungs.