SprintzNKiloz

So, has anyone mapped "degradation" between their gearing capability on, say, 3.25" rollers during off season efforts then what gearing that ended up being once they hit the track at the start of the season?

queerpunk

I think the fastest way to connect these two dots is via a power meter.

queerpunk

I’m going to talk this out a little bit more.

So, your gearing capacity on one set of rollers is a question of power output. You safely assume that the resistance of those rollers is a constant. The more power you can put out, the bigger a gear you can use and still hit your target cadence.

But, somebody else mapping what they can do on rollers to what they can do on the track is that there’s a variable that changes - from zero resistance to a person’s resistance. And that resistance changes from person to person. What that means is that if you take two people - say, a very small one and a very large one - and wintertrain them to the point where they’re both able to hit, say, 150rpm on a 52x14 on these rollers, here's what happens: when you put them outside on the track, they’re not going to be able to hit their target cadence in the same gear, because they have very different amounts of resistance acting on them.

Basically, inside they were able to hit the same power numbers, but outside, it’s power/cda that affects speed (and it’s the speed that will determine your gearing, if you have a target cadence).

That's how I read the situation that I think your question is trying to get at - but I also haven't had my coffee yet.

queerpunk

i'm not going to bother to edit, i'm just going to keep writing.

the simpler way of answering your question is that you can't map your gearing capability on rollers to your gearing capability on the track without a bunch more variables. however you could map your gearing capability on rollers to a power output, and use that to do the other steps. in fact, with zwift and connectable trainers, that's exactly what they do - they use known resistance and input speed to algorithmically estimate power.

carleton

Not sure if you are using rollers correctly.

Rollers are great for:

- Active warmup with no load.
- Active cool down with no load.
- Working on fluidity of motion and learning to relax unnecessary muscles, therefore becoming more efficient.
- Working on leg speed coordination with no load and therefore it's not as taxing as using a fluid trainer.
- Aerobic conditioning at various cadences. The aerobic workout comes from moving your legs a lot more so than moving against load. Basically, it's cadence intervals like Pyramids (which suck balls). F U pyramids.

Your resistance is determined by 6 factors:

- Tire pressure
- Tire composition
- Body weight + bike weight
- Roller diameter
- Cadence
- Gearing

As queerpunk noted, the PM will pick up on the sum of those factors and log it.

But, again, I don't think you should look for measurable gains/losses on the rollers. It's an accessory tool to help you warm up, cool down, or work on efficiency...in my opinion.

Baby Puke

Unless you have rollers fitted with some kind of resistance unit, I agree with what Carleton just said. Does anyone here train with this kind of set up? I've often wondered how it would work. I like riding rollers, but the conditioning is limited as carleton said, and I find a fixed trainer to feel unlike actually riding a bike. Maybe this would be a winning combo? I've never tried, but will be in the market for a new set-up soon.

Voodoo76

The biggest difference IMO even on a resistance trainer is momentum. Rollers or Trainer inside you are going to get to target rpm in a shorter time unless you have a trainer with a large flywheel. Outside you will run out of the peak needed to accelerate to the same target before you get there. Even if the power to maintain the same gear/target rpm is the same on your trainer as outside.

queerpunk

i have a bar bolted across the frame near my rear roller - and two big rare earth magnets on the bar. the closer to the rollers i put them, the more magnetic resistance that they offer.

before, if i approached 300w the rollers rattled too much and i was in a very big gear spinning pretty fast. now i can get well over 400w, close to 500w, before the rollers start to rattle and shake.

Hida Yanra

except for Kreitler 2.25" hot dog rollers - those things are a WORKOUT

carleton

Yeah, they are like a mag trainer set on a medium setting.

carleton

Sprintz,

There are very few things that show a direct correlation on the track. Squatting x more in the gym may not mean y gains on the track. Same for everything else. It's because it's all jumbled into a cacophony of stuff and at the very end, the combined effect will be increased speed.

The only thing off the track that has a direct correlation on the track is power output. Basically, if you make x watts on a trainer or spin bike you will make the same x watts on the track.

This, of course, assumes that the systems record wattage the same way. The spin bike at the gym does not record wattage the same way that an SRM does on a track bike. But, if you use the same track bike to do workouts at home and on the track using the same SRM, then the relationship is 1 to 1. There was a scientific study that proved this using world-class track racers.

SprintzNKiloz

All of this is very helpful and I agree w QP on the points being made. So at the thrust of this and in full disclosure I'll throw numbers out there (not that they are impressive).

I'm doing 4 sets of 30 second efforts and holding a target wattage. Since last year that wattage has gone up a bunch (again, on 3.25" rollers so the variables involved should be constant). Last year I ran a 52x14 for flying 200 on the track. Given the y/y improvement (I think based on winter wattages and cadences), I'm ASSUMING I'll need to target or progress to a larger flying TT gear. I guess the root of my questions was: are there any rules of thumb for guessing gearing progressions or do you just pick up where you left off and go from there? In other words do you start at 100" when the season starts or do you just assume, say, 2" of progression day 1 of new season?

I'll let the chorus of "it depends" rain down now. :-)

SprintzNKiloz

Also a not paid promotion: My Kreitler's don't rattle or shimmy and I can put up around 700 watts on the 3.25" in a 52x12 at around 145-150 rpm. They are rock steady. Also, I have the 2.25" but I'm too chicken to use them.

Trackliche

It depends!

For real, though; why do you need to know exactly what gear to use for your very first f200 of the season? Just take a guess and go from there. Just like you don't use the same gear for every f200 during the season (right?!), you shouldn't expect to have a logical progression from season to season.
Maybe your roller work has upped your power at high legspeed. Maybe the baro is really high. Maybe you've still got a winter layer left from Christmas. Maybe the seasonal wind direction is different than it was when you did your last f200 in September. Jeezum- just do one in your 52x14 and see how it feels. If you like the notion of a little bigger, do that. If you want a little smaller, do that.

KISS!

-TC

carleton

Ahh! This is where cadence comes in. ANYONE can push a 105" gear. But, only a few can do it at 130RPM on the track. Remember, 130RPM isn't hard. Getting a track bike with a 105" gear from 0RPM up to 130RPM on a fixed-gear is VERY hard. It takes a lot of energy to do so.

You are sort of asking programming questions, which can *obviously* be tricky to answer. That's like asking a forum medical advice. So much to consider and we don't have the full picture.

I'll answer this way and paint in broad strokes:

Early season training/racing on the track feels like crap. If if feels good, you are doing it wrong (for me, anyway)

In order to race on big gears, you have to train on big and bigger gears. You can't train on 94-98" then expect to "go big" on race day and hop up to 105" and perform well. Your body will be like, "WTF?" 105" should feel like an old friend. If your target gear is 105", then you should do over and under-gear training around that.

Pay attention to your cadences. Your cadences are literally like the tachometer in a manual car. There is a sweet spot RPM range where the torque and RPMs combine to make greater power than outside of that sweet spot. And just like in a car, your cadences can be too low for a gear or too high for a gear.

The sweet spot is somewhere between 130-145 RPM. Max acceleration happens around 120RPM to carry you up to 130-145.

Crank length is a significant factor. Without igniting a debate, let's say your first season was on 170mm cranks and your favorite gear was 96". If you went town to 165mm cranks, that same 96" would feel like 98-99" because of your lost leverage. If you went up to 175mm cranks, that 96" would feel like 93-94" because of the leverage gain. And that feeling wouldn't be wrong because: Levers. There are lots of pros and cons around crank length, but just understand that if two twin brothers are riding 165mm and 175mm cranks, they won't be able to ride 105" the same way.

Did I muddy things up enough?



Yeah, the Kreitlers are top notch rollers for sure.

Quinn8it

I think where most people blow it on their 200's is in the assumption that the timed 200m section is the hardest or most relevant part. This can often lead to backwards reasoning on gear selection based on "I work best at X-ROM's".. The reality is that most people's 12" watts over the timed portion is probably way less than their recorded max... That's mostly due to the fact that getting the bike going from 25mph to 40mph is the hard part and has nothing to do with that "ideal cadence range" you so painstakingly mapped out for yourself.. Once the Stopwatch starts its all about speed maintenance. There is also the not so little fact that pedaling at max output through the turns during a 200m is not as easy as holding the same watts on a straight away, a Trainer or in a Hi-Torque, Low-G situation like a Standing Start..
Look at a power file for a 200m on a steep 250m. In the last 300m the watts Spike in the jump, drop as you sit, Spike on the back straight, drop through turn 3/4, and spike one final time getting to the line.
Chances are you aren't training exactly like that.. An increase in sustained 25" watts on an Ergo (where I train a lot) will surely add up to more watts in a 200m, but it won't be I straight transfer, because the efforts are vastly different..

#depends

Quinn8it

My point about basing your 200m on an RPM range that you got from how fast the timed portion is- my point was that I suspect that most people are less cadence specific during that timed period (i.e. RPMs there matter less) but are more affected by the cadence range they are in when executing the Jump... So what's more critical is knowing at what RPM you can exert the most power for the biggest jump..

Just my .02

Baby Puke

Anybody have experience with this? I'm really hoping to be able to do what rollers do plus some resistance training in one unit.

CycleOps Training Rollers - Rollers | Competitive Cyclist

carleton

I agree. The flying 200M is a 1 minute effort, not a 10 to 12 second effort.

Notice that I mentioned 120rpm. That's when the real acceleration happens. You get to max speed starting at 120rpm and your max speed happens around 135-140rpm (the timed portion).

The key is to get from 100-120 up to 135 RPM before the 200M start line. That's "the Jump".

CafeVelo

I'm not a track racer, but I do ride a lot on rollers. Mine are magnetic resistance rollers from made by elite. They feel like a turbo trainer but aren't nearly as loud, and of course have the benefits of rollers.

gycho77

I have the roller you are talking about.
Resistence works great, but it's really simple mechanism. So if you are not buying that roller in really cheap price like me, I recommend making the it(magnets) yourself.
If you go to T.Town, I could let you try the roller when I'm at T.Town
or I could send you some videos.

Baby Puke

Thanks, Gycho77. Not going to T-Town this year, but I'd love to see a video of these rollers in action.

Quinn8it

Pete B used to train on TrueTrainer rollers.. I think he thought the resistance worked pretty well for flying 500m type efforts...
Worth a look

gycho77

I will upload videos tomorrow.
Also look up that roller on Ebay.
I got this roller for $56+45

Baby Puke

Thanks, Quinn. Looks like the deal with that one is a disconnectable flywheel, which would for sure be a cool feature.