350htrr

YES, that IS true, the more assist you use the less benefit you will get.... BUT, it still beats sitting on a couch and watching TV...

Classtime 

I would rather 90% of the motor bikers get back on their couches or into their cars. The other 10% should be satisfied soft pedaling 12 mph and wearing a vest indicating that they are disabled. This ebike market is akin to the AstroTurf market: Xeriscaping a lawn takes some planing and care and is good for EVERYONE. Writing a check and laying plastic grass is easy and bad for everyone, but it lets the property owner pretend something beneficial is happening.

KraneXL

You really should have a better solution than the lowest denominator. There's still a base level to which you must reach before you see any positive benefits. As long as you get your exercise in first, then its OK to have fun.

What they need are monitors and trackers on these bikes. Then you can see whether you're working at your target exercise level, and not getting more assist than what you need.

In other words, you can climb the hill without losing speed, but still remain at your 80% max. I wouldn't mind an e-bike that allows you to keep with your straight and level effort while climbing.

BobG

Actually my e-bike retro fit accomplishes that. I will climb a steep hill with greatly improved posture, no more standing, weaving and wagging the saddle left and right. The torque sensor encourages me to work harder because the more I work the more the motor kicks in. In the past I would twiddle up the 500' hill to my home in the granny chain ring without even breathing hard because the return was not worth the additional effort. With the assist I am rewarded when I pedal harder and arrive home winded. Yes, overall the ride is a bit easier but I'll also now do multiple rides up and down my hill per day. In the past one round trip would be the limit.

That said, I'd much prefer to be riding and long distance touring unassisted as I have for the past 50 years. 4 years ago I would have been among the many BF e-bike skeptics. At age 70, after 5 heart attacks, femoral nerve damage and end stage ankle arthritis...well I just can't do that any more. The e-bike HAS kept me off the TV couch. Age and disability happen. The OP has come to that realization with his intitial comments 8 pages ago...

Time to go check mail at the PO, round trip number 1 for the day!

Nachoman

I don't believe that's true. But it's totally quote worthy.

jon c. 

Are people actually doing that these days? I remember a few folks with astro turf "lawns" back in the early 80s, but I thought that practice had been discarded long ago.

KraneXL

Its still alive and well here in California. A sort of weird phenomenon to us rainy climate transplants. But perfectly understandable considering the frequents droughts here on the West Coast. Although used mostly in commercial real estate.

350htrr

WOW, it seems that some of the people on here, think they are superman material... It's great in a way that you think that, at whatever your age IS, 55, 65, 75, or what ever you are, you think you will NEVER, need any assistance to keep doing what comes naturally for you. Guess what, Shiite happens, and there you's is, one day, sitting on a couch and watching TV... I am thinking ||||||||||||||||F' you, but I wish you luck, really, cause you's going to "probably" need it... In the end, some, maybe even most, older people do end up wearing diapers tooo...

KraneXL

It sounds like you had a wise doctor -- for a change.

The more your ride, the less you will be able to walk. And the lower your ability to walk, the greater your need to ride. Its a self-perpetuating solution. Considering the girth of the average person who ride them, I've always thought they do more harm than good.Under the same umbrella as bicycles. The motor means they are not the same.

350htrr

But, wait a minute... If a 30% assistance level, allows you to ride a bicycle for what ever,... Lets say 10 miles and you actually ride/pedal the bicycle 7 miles, or 20, miles and you actually ride/pedal the bike 14 miles, or ride 30 miles where you actually pedal 21 miles three times a week. and without that E-assistance you sit there on the couch and watch TV... What IS the Better solution, not riding or riding with some assistance... ??? Some of you's are fixated on the 20 somethings that ride E-Bikes for fun, for speed, for getting from A to B as fast as possible with the least amount of sweating... There is a whole range of different reasons to ride an E-Bike out there …

KraneXL

Reducing the discussion to its lowers denominator is a pretty poor way to win an argument. So lets try moving "not riding" off the list. That way we're concentrating on pure exercising and health and not mixing it with lethargy or being sedentary.

The problem with 30% is that it soon becomes 40% then 50% and so on. It is a natural human characteristic that cannot be denied. We're always going to move to the level of least resistance when we have that option.

If you want to enjoy the fun of e-bike riding by all means do so. I have no objections to that. Just don't pretend that you're doing more work than you really are. And don't usurp the paths or establish the position of the 100% human powered bicycles. There's a huge difference between walking a flight of stairs and walking up an escalator. Just try them and see what I mean.

350htrr

It's you who is reducing things to it's lowest denominator, a wheel chair is NOT the same as riding an E-bicycle with 30% assistance...

As far as the 30% becomes 40% then 50%, yes that can certainly happen, it has actually happened to me a few times over the years... Every time I thought that I was in the best shape ever, while riding a particularly hard section that I thought I was doing FANTASTIC on, I decided that wait a minute, lets try this without assistance....and...I was brought to my senses right quick, and started to cut back on the "assistance". So, one does NEED to take care, NOT to over use such assistance...

I do enjoy E-Bike riding, way more than regular bicycling... and... I never say I rode 100% of any ride that I used assistance on, what I say was I rode 7Kms out of every 10Kms of that ride under my own power... If I went up 10 stories on an escalator every day I would not say that I went up 10 stories of stairs every day, but if I also walked up 1/2 of every story while riding the escalator "I could say I walked up 5 stories of stairs every day.... see the difference"..???

Mobile 155

At the current level of Pedal assist aren't they under the same umbrella as bicycles. I don't approve of any bicycles on the sidewalk but some cities allow it. Still they have a limit on power so they can stay under the same umbrella now don't they? I am still on the fence but I have tried a full suspension Haro and it was a hoot. Didn't cost anymore than my Tarmac and not any more than a new Tarmac with electric SRAM Red E tap. My problem right now is they don't have the range I am looking for just yet.

But as for pride in doing it on my own I have been there and checked the boxes for quite a few years. I headed a bike club for ten years and chased the young guys in out A group for most of those years. Strava pushed me a bit and I had a few KOMs except on long climbs. One year I did the old Furnace Creek 508 and managed to finish as part of a team in a bit over 41 hours. Marked off that box. Did the climb from Trona to Shoshone over the Panamint mountains without walking.

I have done my share of centuries and listened to the group complain about restricting the slow riders to the far right of the road so the clubs could run their pace lines and go the ride in 5 hours. One day during an attempt at 75 mile training ride I was once again chasing the young bucks and this time leading over a few rollers when it started to feel like my air filter was clogged. Ended up having a quad bypass. Didn't have high cholesterol, didn't have high blood pressure. It took more than a year to get back in form the ride with the group and another few months before I could do pace line work with the young bucks. But the days of hills and chasing others up a long climb are over. They have me on Beta blockers and my HR doesn't get over 150. As I said long climbs now take forever and only the down hill part is any fun.

I have stopped riding with my old group and have spent a lot more time on my MTB and old Peugeot. But I still look at the mountain peaks and remember the little coffee shops and restaurants at the top. Not interested in a solo climb that takes half a day anymore. Like i said I have that box checked. I may not get an E bike and I might get my exercise and the gym on spin bikes instead. The view is often better because a lot more Lycra wearing women ride spin bikes than road bikes. I have just been thinking and E-bike might be better than tossing in the towel.

If they restricted E-bikes as someone suggested then yes a motorcycle might fit the bill much better and I would be able to stop screaming, "On your right," in the bike lanes. well at least yelling till we hit a grade worth mentioning.

linberl

If you're 25 and in perfect health, there's no reason for you to ride a e-bike, unless you just want to do so. If you're aging or have health issues and an e-bike is the only way you are able to ride, then no one should discourage you. I ride my bike without a motor 90% of the time but there are some trails I want to ride (and used to be able to ride) but I can no longer ride them without causing further damage to my knee, so I pop a motor on my bike when I want to ride those trails. Taking 25 degree hills with a motor on a low level of pedal assist IS a damn good workout for me, I sweat just as much as when I ride my normal rides without a motor. I'm not tempted to use the motor when I don't need it - I'm riding for my health and that means putting in the effort as much as I can. But it doesn't make sense to ruin my knee further (and end up having a replacement) to "further my health". I also use a motor when I haul 40 pounds of dog food back from Costco, because I sold my car and use my bike(s) exclusively. The assumption that people use motors because they are lazy or whatever is just b.s., maybe some people do, but there are plenty of folks I see out on them who are actually getting exercise. Is it as much as if they were pedaling manually all the time - probably not (although longer distances at easier levels eventually produce the same results as shorter distances which are harder) but they might not be riding at all if it weren't for the motor. Why be critical of other people's choices? ALL bike riding is good, period.

radroad

It's so hilarious reading posts from people who've never ridden an e-bike and don't know what they're talking about lol.

I tend to agree with Grant Petersen that e-bikes are a BETTER form of exercise than regular bicycles. The best forms of exercise are either low intensity (riding an e-bike or walking) or very high intensity, whereas moderate level of intensity riding is the poorest form of exercise, i.e., the type you typically get riding a "100% human powered bicycle."

And don't try to pretend that all of your speed riding a bicycle ils due solely to your effort. The rotational inertia contributes MOST of the speed. Obviously. Yeah, riding a regular bike is cheating too. You're done.

radroad

Yeah, you don't get to decide who should or should not or can or cannot ride an e-bike. Talk about arrogance!

And feel free to give up your car, your smartphone, your computer, every battery powered device you own and use, your internet access, wi-fi, ethernet, satellite reception, radio reception, that technological contraption you call a bicycle, it's gears, the rubber for your tires, the factories producing every single device you own, metallurgy, every factory on the planet, your refrigerator...

...oh wait, you're Amish and grow all of your own food and electrical outlets are the tool of Satan.

radroad

The levels of hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance are reaching comical levels of ineptitude.

A bike without a motor is cheating compared to walking.

Narrow tires are cheating compared to fat tires.

Exploiting the rotational inertia of bicycles is cheating and immoral, guys.

Suspension is cheating.

Drop bars are cheating.

Aero bars are cheating.

Aero frames are cheating.

Aero wheels are cheating.

Shaving your legs is cheating.

ANY USE OF TECHNOLOGY IS CHEATING.

Bicycling rather than walking is cheating.

Walking with shoes is cheating.

Wearing a coat when it's cold is cheating.

Using glasses is cheating.

Using a microwave is cheating.

Shopping at the grocery store is cheating.

Just stop with the b.s.

freeranger

A friend, and road rider, told me he had purchased a new bike. Would not tell me what it was, said I'd see it on the next ride. Seeing as he is 79, and has had knee surgery, and just recently gotten rid of the brace he had to wear, I figured I'd see an e-bike. Well, no e-bike! It was a hybrid-not a top of the line, lightweight model either. It has some weight to it. I told him I thought I'd be seeing a new e-bike. He replied that it's going to be a long way off before he might buy an e-bike. Sounds like eventually is a bit down the road for him.

linberl

I often wonder if people acted the same when bikes went from single speed to geared....since gears artificially multiply your effort, too.

Mobile 155

It can happen sooner than we think. Like you I have a friend, a dentist in fact, that has several top line CF road bikes. He also has some classic steel but with modern components. Two years ago he took a cycling trip to Spain to ride part of their tour route. But he could never get his wife to ride with him because of him liking to climb. So he bought his wife an E bike. She now rides with him almost every weekend. However he just put in an order for a marching E bike because when they hit a hill now she leaves him like a cat 3 racer.

But he can afford it.

Classtime 

I will never ever own an electric powered bicycle that is not licensed for highway use. When I am on a trail or road ride with a section that I cannot ride under my own power, I walk my bike. Perhaps it is too technical and I don't have the skills. Or it is too steep and I don't have the strength. Or maybe that day at that moment, I AM TOO D@MN LAZY. What is wrong with walking your bike if you are not strong enough or if you are tired? Sheesh!!!

linberl

I'm not sure I understand what the negative effect on "normal bike access" is....other than more people get to ride in places where an elite few previous owned the trails. Now I'm not talking about e-bikes that go more than 20 mph; I'm not in agreement with those, but since a fit rider can easily go 20mph, there is no impact from an e-bike in that regard except that some riders don't like the idea of others getting to use trails they have used. Novice riders who lack experience can use those trails riding manually and they can go that fast - it makes no difference. When I get into discussions with roadies and others who disdain e-bikes, it usually comes out that the truth is the dislike is due to an internalized sense of jealousy, that they don't want people being where they are because they don't meet their personal standard of effort.

linberl

I would happily contest a ticket on the Iron Horse, as my electric bike motor is an add-on and sits in it's mount unused 90% of the time with the battery off. I'd love to get a ticket when it is turned off and fight it in court. I chose my system specifically so I can ride unassisted whenever I can (and Iron Horse is fairly flat, no need to motorize on it). My bike is 19lbs without motor, easy to ride and only 23.5 lbs with the ebike system. In any case, if I flicked it on to get up a hill on an EBRPD path, it would not be noticed but that's besides the point.
As to trail access, you haven't provided anything to show that ebikes under 20 mph are causing loss of access. From what I've read, it is the off-road 28 mph+ bikes that are creating problems, and in particular the super wide tire motorized bikes...and the buttheads that ride them.

big john

The fear is that people on e-bikes going on trails on which they are forbidden can affect trail access for all. In some places trail access for bicycles has been hard fought and can be revoked if the powers that be decide to do so.
I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying e-bikes hurt the trail more than regular bikes or anything close.

BobG

In my area of White MT NF NH a mt biker would be unlikely to share a trail with an e-bike except on a gravel road that already permits motor vehicles. Most of the technical single tracks involve some degree of portage... shouldering the bike around mud and over downed trees too high to jump, across streams and rivers, or up pitches too tricky to ride. A mt e-bike is just too heavy to do that comfortably. Thus even a gate on a Forest Service road would discourage an e-bike unless there is a way around it.

I used to be an avid single track mountain biker before health issues made me quit. I remember on one ride saying to my companion "John, you climb that ledge this time and I'll hand the bikes up!" Not going to happen with an e-bike. I would also think that regular riding across a stream would adversely affect a motor, particularly a low mid-drive.

Some of my past mtb companions whined when they heard I went electric. They got over it when they realized I wouldn't be sharing the same routes. They also whined when Bob Dylan went electric (dating myself). They got over that too!