JacobLee 

Yeah, those are upside down, but they were ridiculous the correct way because the caliper had to come in so far to contact the rim.

So, just curious, what would be an example of not cheating in this situation?

JacobLee 

And they don’t look too bad either. I’m not even expecting these brakes to work very well, I just don’t want them to cut the tire!

jackbombay

The pads on my rear weinmann 750 are 1/4" from the end of the brake arm, yours are right at the end to minimize braking power even more :-/ Why Raleigh put the brake bridge so high on these is a head scratcher, its not like anyone would be putting fenders on this bike.

I put 200 miles on mine with the ROCK hard original pads from 1972, so now that I have modern new pads on the brakes with fresh cables and housings I'm sure the brakes will work sooo much better!

JacobLee 

Got the bars the way I like ‘em!

JacobLee 

I kid, I kid. They slipped back that way one day when I was working on it, and it made me chuckle. I hadn’t seen that in years!

Here she is, all cleaned up. The street is dry, so I try.

jackbombay

I had the same kink in the rear derailleur cable at the cable stop on the top of the chain stay, I hated the look of it, and it can't make the bike shift better, so I used a small zip tie to hold it to the chain stay,

desconhecido 

I think those brakes are 610 front and rear. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what they look like. I think 750s would work with Koolstop inserts or Continentals.
edit: I think the 610s stop better than the 750s, but either will stop you if you have some good pads. Maybe the MAFACS are better, but the Weinmann center pulls are pretty effective.

jackbombay

Now that you posted pics of the 610 and the 750 it looks like the rear is a 610 and the front is a 750, which I think was fairly common back then?

repechage

I jest a bit, the old Weinmann pads were quite deep. The Modern "orbital" adjustment pads and holder combo are a better way, provide for good brake geometry.
I have to go and look at my '71 International, Raleigh did modify things. Rear brake on my bike has a reach of 60 mm and uses the shorter reach caliper, stock Weinmann tubular rims of 21mm wide, they were known to be wide compared to many others.

JacobLee 

Yes, I think 610’s. They’re the same front and rear, and both stickers were gone, but I think they have the shorter arms. They’re pretty strong, in my opinion.

The rear brake tightened the first time I rode it, which I thought was odd. I realized that the pads had enough grip to rotate the brake on the bridge, effectively tightening the cable. Is it possible for these to have more grip than they were designed for?

davester

No, I don't think so. More likely the mounting bolt isn't tightened down far enough. It also looks like you may be missing one of the spacers with a curved cutout in it to fit around the brake bridge (I believe there should be one both on the front and back of the brake bridge and it looks like you only have the one on the back). That would reduce the clamping force of the bolt. Also, the brake holders you have appear to be too long. Don't they collide with the rear stay?

JacobLee 

Both washers are there. The pad holders are road size, same as the old ones, so plenty of room around the stays, no collisions. Maybe I’ll crank down on that sucker and see if it’ll stay perpendicular.

desconhecido 

If there's any doubt about whether they are 610 or 750, the number is marked on the back side of each caliper arm. I've recently been messing with a French frame that seems to be right at the top limit of the 750s and bottom limit of the 610s. Neither brake, in my opinion, is easy to set up near the limit of it's reach. What I have found to be useful for adjusting toe and pad angle is to use small bits of solid copper wire as shims. Peen the wire and it gets pretty thin and when you get a piece that's about the proper thickness to give you the adjustment you want, you can easily break off the wire as the peening makes it quite brittle. Unless you're looking for it, it's not easy to see and you won't break your arms doing it.

repechage

the bridge hole on my International is... sloppy
too big as well. I went to the hobby store and purchased some aluminum tubing to act as a shim, extended it back and into the curved washer - increased the bore of it to match and tightened it up. Poor mfg choice by Raleigh/ Carlton.

JacobLee 

Right! The brake mounting bolt shouldn’t be able to pivot that much in the frame, even if it weren’t super tight. That’s a great tip. Thanks!

JacobLee 

Yep, I can just make out 610 if I shine a flashlight at the back of the brake and squint really hard. You’d think I would have noticed that when I had them apart, but the number didn’t mean anything before my C&V weinmann tutorial. Thanks again for all of the info. I never would have thought to make shims out of copper wire, but that’s such a creative approach. Still, I’d have to find the longer reach brakes to get to the 700c rims, so I’ll probably leave it as-is for now. Plenty of other fish to fry on this bike, like the silly-narrow handlebars! Rides great though, just spinning around the neighborhood.

JacobLee 

I’ve got another question, or two, about the Campy NR front derailleur. First, it seems to want to ride back on the upper, outer pivot. Am I missing something, or is it just a wear issue? Second, the cable clamp wouldn’t grip the cable tightly enough, so I had to make a little sleeve out of a cable tip to give it enough meat to clamp. Did der. cables get skinnier? Thanks!

davester

1. It is fairly common for the pivot pin to come loose from its base, so that's what you may be experiencing. Pull the derailleur apart and try to wiggle the pin. I'm not sure how to fix that problem...I just bought a newer derailleur body. Also note that the later versions came with a circlip that fit into a groove on the end of the pin. I don't see a circlip on yours so that could be the problem.

2. Yes, the cables got skinnier. You can get the fatter cables but I have been buying them from a local vintage-friendly bike shop. I don't know a good source online.

repechage

Campagnolo disease. The fix was the later body with the forward extension and the circlip.
or with a Very good drill press or Bridgeport mill drill through the pin from the back and then tap for a 3mm x .5 fastener and insert a screw like Campagnolo did when this derailleur was first released.

when that happened to me in 1973 I was quite disappointed. Then the circlip version arrived and I bought that as a replacement part in 1974.

some guys reversed the bolt and anchored the cable on the other side- not terrific but less offset

JacobLee 

Ha! That makes me feel better. Thanks for the story. When I was taking it apart for cleaning, I thought to myself, “Well isn’t this graceful, nothing holds this pivot together.”

Also, thanks for the brake bolt tubing idea. I cut a cable ferule apart lengthwise and sat both halves on top of the bolt. Tightened it up, and voila! Made a bit of an eccentric shim to get the calipers .0001mm closer to the rim.

20 miles and 1,200 feet and zero issues. Thanks for all the help!

cudak888 

Not cheating. Getting good braking performance from centerpulls requires that you get the distance between pad and arm dialed in (and the angle of attack square). In some cases - like the above example - not even the factory Weinmann pads did a good job of that.

Since most modern, block-style repop pads don't have enough thread on them to accommodate spacers, using modern, adjustable cantilever pads are an intelligent solution, even if not particularly original in appearance.

Some may argue the contrary, but they've probably never experienced one of these particular centerpulls running at their optimum level.

If the brake bridge appears too large on any 1970's Raleigh, chances are it had shim in it from the start. I've seen multiple examples with a very poorly cut piece of tubing with a slot in it shoved in the bridge.

These shims look homespun, but I've seen enough that I'm convinced the shim was from the factory. They always look the same, and are ridiculously sloppy in fit. It is no surprise your frames didn't have them - probably took all of two minutes for the shim to fall out 20 years ago.

-Kurt

repechage

I saw a cheat in the comparison only, the ultimate solution was sound, felt akin to those back of the magazine adverts for melting belly fat which the best way is ride your bloody bike.
Agree, a shim is needed. But from way back when we exchanged Weinmann's for Campagnolo brakes, (rear with a drop bolt)- never saw those shims. But I am sure they did exist, a assembly variable.
I will look for a set of these mod pads/holders for my International.
Will leave the aged and intact ones for the Concours circuit... wait, there is no vintage lightweight concours circuit...

davester

There certainly is. However, it's a circuit of one (Eroica California).

JacobLee 

I tell ya, I think these brakes are great. They stop fine, modulate well, no squealing, etc. The only problem with them is the brake levers are way out on the end of those vintage bars, and seem about a mile away from the flats, which are only a few inches wide. I think I’ll replace the whole stem/bar/lever assembly so that I can keep the old red cotton tape intact and hang those on the wall in case I ever want to put it back the way it was. I think the GB stem looks sort of lumpy anyhow.

repechage

Just a point in space and time.

Fun to look at, the price to display is a negative. I did not look at the cost this year, but a few year's ago, it was silly.
I know a few who have 10 if not dozens of bikes that could/should be shown.
Not economical and a logistic nightmare.