fietsbob

Location matters.. too.. for example ... I don't live in the places you seem so threatened , to ride your bike, in..

Lesbrill54

Safety vest bright yellow with bright orange and reflective strips. Its mesh and large so fits over raincoat but also cool over tshirt. Also has pockets! Don't plan to ride at night much....we'll see how commuting works in winter, but have steady white in front, options for steady/flashing red in back plus some little white reflector tube jobbies that slip over the spokes. As a driver I've been appalled at how invisible bikes are from the side at night!

cyccommute 

That is incorrect. People may take them off but the Consumer Product Safety Commission requires them. The whole list is long but basically, bicycles are to be sold with front reflector, pedal reflectors, a red rear reflector and reflectors on both wheels or reflective rims or tire sidewalls.

Most state laws require a front reflector or light, a rear reflector or light (some states require the reflector but make the light optional) and the reflectors on the wheels.

There is a report out there done for the CPSC that blows giant holes in the idea of reflectors and their effectiveness as a whole. It’s interesting reading...for a report. Basically it boils down to the reflectors have little to no usefulness but the CPSC requires them anyway.

wphamilton

If I rode against traffic you might have a point. But I don't ... figure out why that's relevant and you'll see why it makes sense.

Leisesturm

I don't know why you are working so hard to try and discredit me. I used 'strobe' deliberately. I know what 'irony' means. I also know what 'anecdote' means as well.

Leisesturm

There is an old proverb attributed to ancient Jewish culture: "Trust in God but tie up your Camel." It could be relevant in this discussion paraphrased thus: "Trust that drivers will see you, but cover your brakes just in case"[/QUOTE]

It actually does

Rick

I run my dyno lights on at all times. The headlight is bright enough that I am more visible to traffic waiting at cross roads. I have a daylight visible taillight also. I purchased this tail light after I was struck by the mirror of a passing car. The benefits of this taillight are no more close passes, no more role up and slow down from a high speed with anger because they don't notice you soon enough.

The problems with the CPSC reflector law is they don't use reflectors that have a proper distance and angle of reflection. They also claim that you only need there recommended set of reflectors and no lights. As you stated states require at least a headlight in addition to the reflectors for night operation. It is obvious that reflectors alone aren't enough.

A motor vehicle has never collided with me at night. Every single problem, near misses, being brushed, and even being t boned by some idiot who ran a red light have happened in daylight. I run with solid lights at night. In California you can use other or more reflectors than the CPSC requires. Reflectors are a good addition to a headlight and taillight. Reflectors and the case for high visibility clothing are wishful thinking at night without lights. Some of the newer reflective materials sown onto packs and visibility triangles are both reflective and florescent. Because the sun illuminates them they are actually useful for daylight visibility.

cyccommute 

Does anyone even make the kind of reflector you are talking about? Reflectors for bicycles meet the DOT requirements and I don’t know of any other reflector that exceeds them. Of course the reflectors depend on distance and angle of reflection which aren’t something that can be controlled for in all situations. What does work better is active lighting. It doesn’t depend on reflection.

I agree that reflectors are . The study I linked to states that very clearly that reflectors are useless, especially in the case of wheel reflectors. But, if your state requires them, you’d better be running them in the case of accidents otherwise you’ll be either partly or entirely culpable for any accidents. That can have an impact if you sue someone.

The problem is that not all states require lights. Because of the CSPC, reflectors have been deemed “adequate” and many people think they are. They really aren’t. My state, for example, requires an active light for the front at night without any indication of light output. I am required to have a reflector on the rear but a light is optional. It should be the other way around.

I disagree on reflective fabrics being visible in daylight. Perhaps some low-light conditions but active lighting would be better in those cases. In full sunlight, any reflective materials...DOT reflectors or fabric...is either going to reflect the greatest source of light back at that source or the reflection is going to be drowned out by that source of light...i.e. the sun. Under the right conditions, you might get a little reflection but in most cases it’s not going to be seen.

Rick

The reflectors that are used to this day are made after a 1976 bicycle standard. The dot and the Germans make bicycle reflectors that are superior in there operating range of angle and being seen over a larger range of distance. I have always used lights at night.

I live in California and you can get rid of the wheel reflectors if you have the reflective strip on the tires. My tail light has a reflector on it and works like a stop light when I slow down. I wouldn't even trust a CPSC rear reflector for a backup if my lights quit working.

California requires the same light setup with some short range visibility requirements.
Not requiring lights on bicycles is ludicrous. I was in Germany in 1980 and all but racing bicycles had lights or wired for lights and did not leave the shop without them.

I use active lighting during the day also. I have a product called a flash flag on my tandem. The florescent effect on it is very effective. It is not as good as my Dinotte daylight visible light. But it did attract a deputy who had a meltdown because according to him it hung out to the left too far. After his supervisor brought the tape measure it was deemed legal and the deputy let me go with a warning. The deputy warned me not to leer at him.

Leisesturm

Why should someone who will never ride at night be forced to pay for lights they will never use? I don't know anyone who rides without lights at night. I can't, I need lots of light to see where I am going. Same in Germany. Lights are for seeing. They don't allow flashing lights because there are already lots of laws, enforced laws, protecting cyclists. Bikes there don't have to make themselves a distraction to (not) be safe.

Rick

The bicycle manufactures in Germany are tooled up for this and the cost of lights is low compared to the US making them a specialty item. The Germans do not allow flashing lights on bicycles because they are dangerous to the user and traffic around them. For the same reason as you suggest I should be able to pay for a car without lights to save money.

Here is a good reed on why we don't have lights on bicycles.

cyccommute 

Every bicycle reflector I’ve looked at has had a DOT number on the back. The Department of Transportation doesn’t “make” anything. They just set the standards. The CSPC standard also specifies angles that the reflector has to be seen from. Although I haven’t gone digging in the Federal Register, I suspect that the standards set by the CSPC are to meet the DOT standard for reflectors.

I think I said something about reflective rims and reflective strips on tires above. That’s generally allowed but not very many rims are reflective nor do all that many tires have reflective strips.

Let me be clear, I don’t run lights during the day nor do I advocate that all (or even most) bicycles should have lights all the time. I don’t even advocate that bicycles should come with lights. Any light that is mounted on a bicycle from the factory would meet some minimum standard and not be all that effective. After market lights are far superior (for the most part) to anything that might be stuck on a bike from the factory. Basically, I don’t want to use a 100 to 200 lumen light that someone else thinks is “adequate”. It isn’t.

cyccommute 

The German standard is exactly the problem that I want to avoid. The lights to meet the German standard are only designed for a maximum of 18 kph or about 11 mph. German lights meet that standard but don’t exceed it. The German standard also does not allow for flashing lights, especially on the rear. I’m not a fan of flashing front lights* but I do like at least one on the rear to flash.

As for saving money, my argument for not having integrated lights on a bike or having OEM lights on a bike is that I can put on lights that fit my needs rather than someone else’s.

njkayaker

Here you are implying that flashing headlights "grab attention" but don't let drivers "see you and register that you are there". That doesn't make sense if flashing rear lights manage to do both.

Here you are saying you don't need either of those things (riding with traffic). That's a different thing.

Flashing lights really aren't really necessary for traffic in the other lane (obviously). But that's not why people use them.

But they do serve a purpose in getting you noticed in intersections.

njkayaker

Your rant about people misusing the word "strobe" was unhinged.

Your anecdote made the same sort of point that a story about a 100 year-old smoker does.

njkayaker

There are two people here that have no idea if this. They think the only point of a headlight (during the day) is to warn opposing traffic (which is pretty bizarre).

I've never seen any reference that indicates why flashing lights are not allowed. I suspect it's because the Germans consider flashing lights to be proper only for emergency use. I doubt it was because they were "dangerous" (since it doesn't appear they are "dangerous" at all). In places where there are a lot of cyclists. everybody using flashing lights might be irritating. Cyclists are generally fairly rare in the US (so, concerns/needs might not be the same in the US as they would be in Europe).

njkayaker

I've never seen any reference that indicates why flashing lights are not allowed in Germany. I suspect it's because the Germans consider flashing lights to be proper only for emergency use. I doubt it was because they were "dangerous" (since it doesn't appear they are "dangerous" at all). In places where there are a lot of cyclists. everybody using flashing lights might be irritating. Cyclists are generally fairly rare in the US (so, concerns/needs might not be the same in the US as they would be in Europe).

njkayaker

It's the florescence that is visible in daylight. Reflective doesn't work in daylight and doesn't work (very well) for indirect lighting.

wphamilton

Spot on, all of it IMO. That's not to say I wouldn't want a German standard dynamo light - I would, but not enough to go to the expense and initial trouble and extra drag/weight for one. Given the amount of night-riding that *I* do, and where, cheaper brighter battery lights are better.

Marci

I belong to a group that rides twice a week. Only bad storms or really cold weather keeps us in. The starting time is 5:30. So it means for 6 months we ride in the dark. Along with front and back lights we decorate our bikes with battery operated Christmas lights. Last winter I picked up some colored party lights made just for bikes. I have to say the folks we meet on the road simply LOVE them. As we ride by they are saying oh wow how cool... so it makes good feelings too. Especially around Christmas time. I even have a blinking like on the back of my helmet. I think this year I will spring for the bike wheel lights I have seen.... They look pretty cool.
Oh and its a law that bikes have to have a light. Some sort of a light, even if its just a flashlight strapped to the handlebars.

Leisesturm

It's so ironic all the arguments for making ourselves visible, heard, 'relevant', etc. on the road. Seriously, do you think only cyclists that were riding ninja get creamed? You CAN be hit by a driver that SAW you! I suspect that its that way in the majority of collisions. All this emphasis on putting the responsibility for a good outcome on the driver is wasted energy IMO. I ride with the minimum of safety equipment because that is not what keeps me safe. When you deck yourself out like a First Responder you are saying "I want drivers to see me so they will do the right thing (stop) when they do". What if that is not the drivers interpretation of the situation? What if they expected you to stop instead, and wait for them to complete that right turn? After the crash what do you expect them to say? Of course they are going to say "I didn't see him/her". Don't believe it! Don't spend good money on hyper bright lights that work in daylight because you believe drivers that say they didn't see a cyclist operating in broad daylight. Start thinking like a driver! You after all are one! Most drivers aren't cyclists, but all cyclists with only fractional percent exceptions are also drivers. You know what you can see and what you can't and therefore much of what goes on in these threads shouldn't.

Jaackil

A time and place for every thing. Long before I took up cycling again I was an avid motorcyclist. On every motorcycle I owned I installed a headlight modulator. It’s a device that allows you to make your headlight blink or flash. Why? Because during the day you are more visible with your headlight on to motorists and even more visible if that headlight is flashing. Approved for use by the DOT in all 50 states. However it is not legal to modulate your lights at night as such they must have a photo eclectic “eye” to prevent modulation at night or in dark tunnels. This is because the flashing light is distracting to other motorists in the dark and as many have said reduced a motorist ability to judge where you are. The point is this. Flashing lights during the day do a good job getting motorists attention at night a solid beam is better. I think some are missing the point while flashing lights are preferable in daylight. At night solid beams give you better visibility to motorists around you. I can also tell you as someone who drives not rides in my city a lot at night reflectors are not as good as lights. If headlights happen to catch your reflector you will be seen but there are so many things that can prevent that, angle, distance, the amount of ambient light etc. One that I see a lot is when a rider is inside the beams of a cars headlights behind them. A rider with no lights and just reflectors is invisible. In Germany a country with more registered bicycles than people bicycles are required by law to be fitted with lights front and back that work and must be on from sunset to sunrise if not there are hefty fines. I don’t understand why every cyclist doesn’t have lights for nighttime riding. Just my opinion.

njkayaker

No one made this claim.

This is silly.

No one (in this thread) is doing this.

notmyke

Cygolite HotShot Pro 150 - put it on small-small-small-BIG flash mode. Even in bright sunshine, it gets the attention of drivers.

...to the point where I actually had a guy in a car yell out his window while we were stopped at a light, asking me what light that was - because it was so noticeable and he wanted to get one for himself.

Mr. Wiggles

Like many others on this thread, I simply paid attention while riding. Eventually I did the things that I found to be most visible. Reflective clothing and flashing lights.

Just watch any “cop” show on TV. Every day a motorist slams into a police cruiser parked on the side of the highway while it’s roof rack is flashing. If the drunk idiots on the phones can’t even see the police, none of us have a chance.