branko_76 

btw, have you check the frame for alignment? I've found that those early Raleigh seat and chain stays can be off quite a bit.

lacro

This SC frame did suffer the same problem of HS adjustment being impossible. I did have the head tube and the BB refaced, but not the fork. Hopefully the head tube facing will solve the issue.

lacro

If you follow the whole thread, you will see where I did reset the alignment that was slightly off, but in the process I popped a seat stay cap which was already showing a crack at the braze joint. I could have fixed it with JB weld as it's not a structural element. However, the top tube paint had some rusty spots that I didn't want to live with so I had the cap re-brazed which destroyed the paint. This whole project is 'one thing leads to another' It's been fun and frustrating at the same time. Sourcing better components, and painting the frame without spending beyond the bikes worth is my goal. Since I recently picked up the SGP which has cleaned up to look like a brand new bike, I don't know why I am bothering with the SC even though it's a better frame.

branko_76 

I just finished restoring a 20-1/2" Super Grand Prix for a woman who has owned it since new. The frame has a very tight geometry and is much too small for me but I took it for a test ride and could feel every bump in the road. My regular Grand Prix which I use as a commuter is much more forgiving in that sense. I suspect that the Super Course will give you a much better ride than the SGP. That said, a lager framed SGP may be more forgiving than a 20-1/2".

noglider 

@lacro, I think you'll find the end product to be very satisfying. As this did not start out as an expensive bike, it could seem not to be worth it. But the bones are good. I may be paying a frame builder to modify my early 70s Super Course, but just because there isn't much sunk cost in it yet, some new expenses will prove to be worthwhile, since I like the way the bike rides so well. I can scarcely believe how heavy it is, because it doesn't feel heavy when it rides.

lacro

I thought the GP and the SGP were the same frame, just different components? I know the SC has the relaxed geometry which I like, and SGP has the race geometry.

Road Fan

Interesting comment on geometry. Since I got my 1952 Rudge, I thought perhaps it was a precursor to the Grand Prix and Super Course. Long top tubes, and straight-gauge 531.

But the geometries don't match: Rudge 71 degree seat tube and 73 head tube, Super Course 73 seat tube and 71 head tube. I guess that's the difference between Lenton/Nottingham tradition (Rudge Aero Special), and Carlton/Worksop tradition.

dddd

I think of the 73 seattube angle combined with 71 headtube angle as "modern" in the context of both the CX/MTB (off road) bikes and the triathlon bikes (with their yet-steeper seattube and slack headtube angle).

Peugeot made that switch on their U08/9/10 models when the frames were redesigned around the new Carbolite tubing in 1979. The formerly slack seattube moved more upright and the head angle was relaxed, at least in the familiar 57-ish size range bikes that I dealt with. I kept both on the road for a good while, and ultimately found the newer geometry superior for spirited riding in the foothills where I live.

So shall we say that Raleigh was ahead of it's time with the Super Course? It did offer a gravel friendly platform before "gravel" was a thing in the modern context.

branko_76 

That's correct, the GP has a longer wheel-base than the SGP which has racing geometry. Both frames are made from 20-30 tubing and have the same lugs, dropouts and fork crowns.

Component-wise, the GP's of the SGP era (late 1970's) had the same hubs (Normandy HF), derailleurs (Suntour VXGT), brake levers (safety type), stem and bars (GB). The differences were as follows

GP... steel seat post, vinyl covered saddle, Weinmann 610 and 730 calipers, touring pedals, steel 27" rims, schrader valves, stem shifters (Suntour), touring geometry

SGP...alloy seat post, sued over plastic saddle, Weinmann short reach calipers (front and rear), 700C alloy rims, presta valves, bar-end shifters (Suntour), racing geometry

Both the GP and SGP of the late 70's had SR alloy cotterless cranks. Most had fixed outer chainrings so that when worn, you'd have to get a new drive side crank, Some SGP's came with a SR crank which had the standard removable outer chain-ring. Both inner and outer rings were 118 bcd.

ryansu

@lacro it looks awesome in the raw

Roll-Monroe-Co

Well, you've come this far! It's the perfect time to add canti posts for your 650b conversion!

Road Fan

If you are using rims that are original to the Super Course, you should not use 27 x 1 ⅛, because the original rims most likely did not have hooked beads, and were most likely designed for 27 x 1 ¼. Not having hooked beads, they pretty much require wire-bead tires. These are available in the form of the Pasela and the Specialized Road Sport, and some others. These tires will be good for up to 90 psi (if that does not over pressurize them), and in my opinion will be quick and cushy.

Road Fan

I can't say too much ... My Rudge isn't ready to ride so I can't offer any testimonials. But, I have a small-frame Mondonico that originally had 75 deg seat tube and 71.5 deg head tube, and while it will carry me over imperfect roads, I would never believe that this frame geometry was designed originally for gravel, back in the day. It might be counterintuitive that the Mondo was a great road ride with that geo, but he was devoted to what he called "stage race" geometry.

dddd

It's the seat tube angle that more or less defines the geometry as being suited to racing, as the rider's balance point above the bb is a function of how hard that the rider is expected to be pedaling.
Torque applied to the cranks has an equal and opposite opposing force that is the rider's mass forward of the bottom bracket, sufficient to sustain the pedaling torque without having to tug on the bars.
It's the same as when a rider attacks a steep climb with their handlebar encroaching on their waistline.
The headtube will be what it needs to be, smaller frames will need a slacker headtube angle to keep a 700c front tire from touching the rider's toes, and bikes intended for off-roading or for undulating road surfaces may need a lot of trail, and with not so much weight on the front tire lest the rider possibly tip over the handlebars.

This bike has a very slack 71-degree headtube angle, but also has a "low trail" fork intended to lighten the steering effort, likely to update an ancient frame design for use with sporty drop handlebars. And with the slack HT angle and added fork rake, weight is shifted away from the front, further lightening the steering. I actually had to increase the stem length not for fit reasons, but because the steering had too little on-center stability. I corrected the reach to the bars with a zero-offset post, which then made this bike better suited to a higher-effort pedaling intensity as when doing fast training rides. With the addition of dual-position brake levers, thankfully the bike is still quite versatile.

jj1091

That's a gorgeous bike. Class all the way.

Road Fan

+1!!

What is that frame, and what company made it? Certainly "Clubman" was a model name, but is that the brand name here? The geo reminds me of a late-1960s Peugeot UO-8.

My Rudge is a triplet sibling with the Raleigh Super Lenton (identical specs except for some "trimmings") and another Raleigh captive brand. Rudge and Raleigh used frames with that geometry, usually in straight 531, for very long solo rides such as Lands' End to John O'Groats, dating back at least to the 1920's up until the 1950's. I don't know when mass-start racing began in England, however. In any case, the Rudge also has rather low trail about 38 mm. I have two low-trail bikes, and they both show reduced self-centering in their steering. I assume it was necessary for riding aggressively over widely-varying road surfaces.

So the "gravel-friendly" characteristic goes back to when cyclists were working to get roads paved in the US, initially. That would be in the early 1900's!

lacro

I think so too. I toyed with the idea of just clearing it, and leave it that way. If I screw up the paint job, I may strip it, and do that.

noglider 

Interesting science about geometry, @dddd. Thank you!

dddd

The Clubman is an entry-level model made by Steyr/Puch in Austria throughout the 60's and beyond. It's roots go back much further. Sears sold millions of similar models branded as either SEARS or Ted Williams.
Good-riding bikes, pictured below is my '68 Sears TEN SPEED:

lacro

Successful paint application Even though it was way more humid and windy than I would have preferred, my outdoors frame paint job came out WAY BETTER than I expected. I only had one bug, and one pine needle fall on the wet paint which didn't affect the paint at all.

ryansu

(cough) crème head tube (cough)

branko_76 

Are we only allowed to say good things about color choices?

agmetal

Yes! That would look so good

lacro

You can say anything you want about MY color choice, but before you do, be aware I know where you live Actually the blue color is a pretty nice blue, but the camera was set at "vivid" which makes the color look intense. The color is Ford Blue which is the color of Ford/New Holland tractors, and implements.

branko_76 

Farm equipment, eh? I'll be waiting for you...