tds101 

unterhausen

Summary?

fishtaco

One of the reasons EU ebike laws are in place " sometimes outside the EU as well" is to standardise the speed and use of ebikes and there fit for purpose status. Just take a look at some of those commercial ebikes in the clip and the size of there cargo. No license no registration no road tax no insurance no fuel tax and thus paying nothing towards road maintenance, they are way too big for bike lanes or shared footpath use so essentially they are a road transport vehicle. How dangerous are those forward carriers that people put children into!
I cant see why any road use or commute ebike should go over 25kph under power?
Putting a full use twist grip that is even called a "Throttle" makes it a motorised vehicle no different to an e motorbike, this makes inexperienced and underage users who have never experienced riding a motorised vehicle on the road a huge hazard especially when they continue to ignore road rules or never bother to learn them.
I am sure there would not be a problem if all ebikes looked like bicycles and acted like bicycles but too many are increasingly becoming Mopeds in look and style with a throttle speed to match.

2old

AFAIK, the governor killed the bill by refusing to sign it.

edwong3

Well, NY State will be in a small minority in trying to emulate EU e-bike laws. Almost all of the rest of the country recognizes "Class 2" (Throttle and pedal assist) with 750 watts max motor power (Nominal) and top speed of 20 mph on flat terrain.

What makes an e-bike different from a "moped" or light electric motorcycle is the power and speed, not the fact that it has a throttle. The form factor of physically resembling a moped or other motor bike shouldn't matter either. Does the e-bike fit within the legal power and speed limits? That is all that matters.

Yes, a light e-bike can do just fine with pedal assist only but throttles are very useful for cargo bikes to get them started easier when carrying a heavy load, especially if starting on a hill. It can also help individuals with physical handicaps who may have severe difficulties with pedaling.

I hope that the senate steps in again and overrides Governor's Cuomo's decision as NY needs to keep up with the rest of the country in this regard.

2old

Actually, except for the 15 vs 20 mph difference, rest of the universe.

fishtaco

I am not really knocking the twist throttle totally just the top speed of a class 2 in a busy city environment, with many EU ebike spec you can still use a twist grip/throttle but its limited to a much lower speed than the PAS top speed you still get the torque you need for start off or on hills and people with disabilities can get an exemption which makes your point a bit null and void with the powers to be when it comes to arguments against a bill and proposed legislation.
The "form factor" didn't seem to matter when they banned e cig use in non smoking areas around the world when vaping is not and never will be smoking! the perception of smoking is apparently enough to encourage others to smoke same with ebikes v moped unlicensed use.
Anyway I was thinking NY City when I commented and didn't really think about NY state, being an aussie I only think NY NY, I have visited a few times and I could see the safety concerns with heavy traffic and congested sidewalks.

edwong3

To be perfectly transparent, the e-bike that you see in my avatar, is what I currently ride. It has a throttle but is limited to 25 km/hr or 15.5 mph and uses a geared 250 watt hub motor. I suppose that fits within EU standards though I live in Orlando, FL USA. And due to the bike's small size, I think that is adequate. That said, as I get more comfortable with riding longer distances and sharing the streets and roadways with other vehicles, I want to get a 20 mph capable e-bike and that is in the cards possibly a little later in the year.

I appreciate your explanation about the EU's permissiveness for limited throttle use and how disabled people can get an exemption. I did not know about that last item but I still don't consider my previous comment redundant in this context.

You might also be right about these rules being specific for NYC. Every time I have read about the "e-bike legality" issue it generally referred to NYC. That said, parcel delivery services like UPS have been granted a permit to operate three wheel cargo e-bikes in NYC as a "pilot program". I don't know the details of what parameters in terms of power train etc. they will be operating under but from what I understand, they are allowed to fully use the bicycle infrastructure (Bike paths, lanes, etc.) throughout the city.

And as a final note, e-cigs are being banned not because they look like cigarettes, but because the latest studies done with individuals who are exhibiting symptoms from using e-cigarettes suggest that they are actually more harmful than smoking tobacco based cigarettes and cigars. So going back to basing the banning of an e-bike just because it look like a moped, a small motorcycle or a chopper, is not a valid argument. Law enforcement just needs to be educated and aware of the difference. Otherwise it is just an excuse for laziness. Worse case scenario maybe for a nominal fee, the state can issue a form of a small plate that says, "Electric Bicycle" with a dedicated serial number of sorts but maintain the exclusion of registration, insurance and licensing. But even that is a bit extreme in my humble opinion.

fishtaco

My comment on e cig was not about them being banned or if they are dangerous to your health or not but about legislation already passed in many countries and States years ago that they cannot be used in non smoking areas! They are not Cigarettes nor do they create smoke but its the perception of somebody smoking that leads others to believe its ok to smoke in a non smoking areas , so an electric bike that looks nothing like a bicycle and looks like a moped and goes almost as fast as a moped with a throttle will give the perception that its ok to ride un registered mopeds on pubic foot paths and bike lanes. A moped has to have peddles or its not a moped, Motor that can be peddled. you have probably seen the "Monday"? class 2 no license no insurance no registration and it can go on sidewalks. its an electric moped that's possibly faster and defiantly quicker than the likes of a motobecane or Peugeot some of the first mopeds around that had to be peddled to get them going and needed peddle assistance to get up the smallest of hills.
The need for speed with motorbike attributes may just ruin the e bicycle industry in USA with EU /Australian restriction imposed ,once one State does it the rest will follow.
Like e cigarettes once a few people die on e bikes they will be restricted to a bicycle that can only be motor powered to 25kph/15mph with PAS.

Doc_Wui

It's about money. Must be too much money coming out of those ebike tickets in NYC and salvage bikes sales (a lot of them are impounded immediately and never reclaimed).

edwong3

Once again, at least from the news I have watched about the subject of e-cigarettes, the concern the specialists stated were health related. Also, they have done studies that found they are actually more addictive than regular lit tobacco cigarettes. Maybe in your part of the globe, the motivation to stifle e-cigarette use is because of psychological perceptions of being the real thing but that doesn't seem to be the case over here. Nuff said about the subject. This forum is about electric bicycles.

I am well aware of what is traditionally a moped. Back in the early 1970s, there was a guy who lived in the same neighborhood I did back then that had one. I remember watching him start it by pedaling it for a few feet and the small engine roaring to life. Licenses, registrations and insurance was not required and that made them popular.

Mopeds gave way to those "Vespa style" scooters which have no pedals but at least according to Florida law, are called "mopeds". The rules are, maximum of two (2) brake horsepower, maximum top end speed of 30 mph and only a regular driver's license is needed to operate them. They do have a plate but no registration in the same sense as other motor vehicles and are exempted from carrying insurance. I have seen where some companies are bringing back the pedal/engine moped and that is sure to gain some new enthusiasts.

The fact of the matter is, anyone riding even a regular pedal bike, who is not mindful of what they are doing, can get into an accident and even kill themselves. I highly doubt that limiting e-bikes to PAS and 25 kph is going to be widely adopted here in the US. I think that NYC's ban on 20 mph Class 2 bikes is not going to last very long. That said, I think Class 1 is the second most popular drive system for e-bikes, but for the most part can still reach 20 mph on PAS. For a light city bike, that works and I would certainly ride one.

Now I am concerned with some of these multi-thousand watt rigs that can go even faster than the mopeds we're discussing. Some manufacturers try to justify putting these models out there with being able to limit the power through the control console but that doesn't stop the village idiot from running full power through the town or city, even on walk and bicycle paths getting themselves into trouble. Now that can hurt the image of e-bikes and could start to get people clamoring for either regulation or complete ban.

fishtaco

edwong3 you missed the point about e cigarettes and comparison to supposed future laws and legislation on e bikes.
e cigs or vapes were banned on air flights pubic transport closely followed by all non smoking areas well before any real health issues were a public concern, they were banned purely because they looked like cigarettes and looked like smoke when they clearly are not, now authorities could have given education and training to the people enforcing the smoking rules or laws as to the difference between vape and smoke but they did not they just banned e cig/vaping in "non smoking areas" when there is clearly no smoke from a vape.

I only used the e cig comparison because you said it should be up to the authorities to police the difference between e bikes v mopeds. well the same was true for them to police e cigs v cigarettes! form an authoritative perspective if it looks like a moped and it drives like a moped but its an e bike said authorities are not going to educate or train all people involved in traffic enforcement the difference between the two just like they didn't with e cigs, its just far easier and cheaper to restrict, regulate or ban the use. This is clearly what they did in Australia with its vast uncluttered roads with a few city areas and traffic.

Now look at those front cargo e bikes in the original clip, do you honestly believe USA law makers will allow them to continue being class 2 if they want?

edwong3

Listen, I'm done with this discussion. I get it. You probably enjoy a good debate but I believe we should direct that energy towards a more relevant topic than trying to link the movement towards banning vaping and that of current and future legislation for electric bicycles.. I already said my part, you said yours. What is there to further discuss? I would never try to be rude with you but we're "beating a dead horse" if you understand what I mean. Have a nice day!

fishtaco

Cant handle the discussion heat get out of the fire! good choice.

edwong3

That kind of response is disappointing to say the least. I didn't expect that coming from you. Now, I am really glad to have exited the discussion. Have a nice day.