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Road flat with tubeless

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Road flat with tubeless

Old 12-09-19, 07:03 AM
  #26  
WhyFi
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Originally Posted by katsup
I haven't tried this with road tires, but I have unseated tight MTB tubeless tires with the heel of my shoe. Place your heel on the tire as close as you can against the rim then pull up on the wheel. I have only done this with standard walking shoes.
I've dealt with some hellaciously tight fits, and most road tires are too small for this approach - just not enough meat to step on. The best approach that I've found for breaking the seat is to do a rolling-up-a-newspaper motion - stand the wheel in front of you, 'cause you really need to lean in to it, and try to roll/pull to tire over the rim. If it doesn't pop within a couple seconds, rotate the tire and try another spot. You *need* to wear gloves, too - you'll blister up your hands right quick, otherwise (ask me how I know).
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Old 12-09-19, 07:10 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
The plug itself is metal, right? Is that ok on carbon rims?
Some have a metal plug, some don't. The ones that I used didn't have a plug and they wouldn't stay in, not with the bike free hanging at home, at least. If you were to plug it in the field and ride on it immediately, it probably wouldn't push out, or at least not as readily (it would take about 30+ min to push out for me). Tire thickness might have an effect, too - my experience was with some Hutch Fusion 5 Performance 11-Storm (they need a shorter name); they're not race-day tires, but there's not a ton of meat on them, either, so maybe not as much in-the-hole thickness for stiction.
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Old 12-09-19, 09:40 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Robert A
So one side goes to the center, allowing the other side to come off the lip of the rim?
The side you're trying to take off, push the tire to the center where the rim drops down a bit lessening the effective diameter. This will give you a little more room to lift it over the lip of the rim. I have tubeless ready tires and rims on my mtb and they are the hardest beads to break loose of anything I've tried. I can leave the bead fully seated on one side and peel the other side off, after breaking it loose all the way around.
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Old 12-09-19, 09:54 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by big john
The side you're trying to take off, push the tire to the center where the rim drops down a bit lessening the effective diameter. This will give you a little more room to lift it over the lip of the rim. I have tubeless ready tires and rims on my mtb and they are the hardest beads to break loose of anything I've tried. I can leave the bead fully seated on one side and peel the other side off, after breaking it loose all the way around.
So the side you want to remove is first pushed to the center?
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Old 12-09-19, 09:58 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Robert A
So the side you want to remove is first pushed to the center?
Yes, this makes a looser fit, gives you more tire to stretch over the rim. Do this on any tire, tubeless or not. Practice at home before you have to do it on the side of the road.
I don't know your set-up but it probably helps to break both beads loose.
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Old 12-15-19, 08:39 PM
  #31  
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I used Dynaplugs for the last tubeless flat I had and fixed a hole in the tire sidewall. 1 plug wasn't enough so ended up inserting a second plug and surprisingly it did the trick and I was able to finish the Century ride. (another 35 miles).
Had a spare tube but didn't need it.
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Old 12-15-19, 10:21 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by jimincalif
Yes, plugs. Saved me from getting stranded (or having to put in a tube, which I do carry along with boots) last week. I’ve since done another 140 or so miles on the tire since plugging it. I use DynaPlug, there are a few varieties. I’m intrigued by the newly announced plans from Stans that supposedly react with latex sealant to form a more permanent bond with the tire. Are these available yet? My local LBS guy said they were not when I spoke with him a couple weeks ago.
I bought the Stan's Dart (the product you're referring to) back in November. I got mine at REI but they are on almost everyone's web site including Stan's. I haven't had to use it yet, but the 'science' is interesting.

Further posts refer to metal plugs??? The bacon strips are some sort of a Rubber compound aren't they? The insertion decide is usually metal. Same as having an automobile tire plugged.

Last edited by MAK; 12-15-19 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 12-15-19, 10:39 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by tobey
I used Dynaplugs for the last tubeless flat I had and fixed a hole in the tire sidewall. 1 plug wasn't enough so ended up inserting a second plug and surprisingly it did the trick and I was able to finish the Century ride. (another 35 miles).
Had a spare tube but didn't need it.
Yeah, but how do you practice it at home on a healthy tire?
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Old 12-15-19, 10:39 PM
  #34  
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I had the pleasure of 3 incidents yesterday on a wet 50 miles. Heard the hiss at about 10 min into the ride but it sealed up nicely and rode another 25ish miles until a gash that was too big allowed all the sealant to empty. Used a dynaplug that didn't seal and then used another one and it eventually worked. Added 2 more oz of sealant and was back on my way for another 5 miles or so but it just didn't hold. Tubed it and made it home. Some cuts are just too big for plugs so I always carry a tube.
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Old 12-16-19, 12:04 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Some have a metal plug, some don't. The ones that I used didn't have a plug and they wouldn't stay in, not with the bike free hanging at home, at least. If you were to plug it in the field and ride on it immediately, it probably wouldn't push out, or at least not as readily (it would take about 30+ min to push out for me). Tire thickness might have an effect, too - my experience was with some Hutch Fusion 5 Performance 11-Storm (they need a shorter name); they're not race-day tires, but there's not a ton of meat on them, either, so maybe not as much in-the-hole thickness for stiction.
Thanks!

What I'm really wondering is if the plug will damage a carbon rim. If you're using it you're probably riding home on an underinflated tire, so air isn't going to hold it away from the rim, at least as much. With bad roads you could be bottoming out a lot...
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Old 12-16-19, 06:28 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
I've dealt with some hellaciously tight fits, and most road tires are too small for this approach - just not enough meat to step on. The best approach that I've found for breaking the seat is to do a rolling-up-a-newspaper motion - stand the wheel in front of you, 'cause you really need to lean in to it, and try to roll/pull to tire over the rim. If it doesn't pop within a couple seconds, rotate the tire and try another spot. You *need* to wear gloves, too - you'll blister up your hands right quick, otherwise (ask me how I know).
I think as more roadies adopt the 105% rule as a goal (rim exterior width = tire width x 1.05), tire fitting stories will become more prevalent. Seems simple geometry math to realize that as rim width grows, while diameter/circumference remains the same, a given tire width (eg. 25) will be harder to fit on a wider rim than a narrower rim. Tubeless just adds further difficulty.
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Old 12-16-19, 07:14 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Thanks!

What I'm really wondering is if the plug will damage a carbon rim. If you're using it you're probably riding home on an underinflated tire, so air isn't going to hold it away from the rim, at least as much. With bad roads you could be bottoming out a lot...
If that's the concern, I'd just carry the ones without a plug.

...but I don't think that it would be a big concern: the Goldilocks punctures that we're talking about seem to be pretty rare (I've had one in about 12k miles), the plug should hold air well enough that you can top it off to avoid bottoming out and, if you are low, the plug is small and not likely to be meaningfully/forcefully contacting the rim (it'd either be between the rim sidewalls or have a layer of tire between it and the sidewall, beyond that, you'd either need to be riding rim or have just awful timing, bottoming out at the exact time that the plug would be within the contact patch).
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Old 12-16-19, 07:45 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I think as more roadies adopt the 105% rule as a goal (rim exterior width = tire width x 1.05), tire fitting stories will become more prevalent. Seems simple geometry math to realize that as rim width grows, while diameter/circumference remains the same, a given tire width (eg. 25) will be harder to fit on a wider rim than a narrower rim. Tubeless just adds further difficulty.
Do you have any personal experience or interest in using tubeless? You seem to be here to with the sole intent to try to poke holes while lacking the practical knowledge to do so.

First and foremost, the type of tight fit that I was talking about, and that you quoted, comes purely down to rim diameter (at the bead) and tire diameter (at the bead). To date, there have been no firm standards in place, so some manufacturers have been cheating a mm here and a mm there; when you get a tire that's a hair small paired with a rim that's a hair big, you can have a really tight fit like the one that I mentioned. If a specific combo is too tight, get a different tire - there are plenty to choose from at this point. Further, widespread rumor within the industry is that the ETRTO standards have finally been set but not yet announced, so these problems should largely disappear as manufacturers adjust and adopt.

Beyond that, you're ignoring the simple math in your "105% Rule" simple math scenario - if someone moves to wider rims, it would be necessary to also scale up to wider tires, so your "given tire width" argument is irrelevant.
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Old 12-16-19, 09:46 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by MAK
I bought the Stan's Dart (the product you're referring to) back in November. I got mine at REI but they are on almost everyone's web site including Stan's. I haven't had to use it yet, but the 'science' is interesting.

Further posts refer to metal plugs??? The bacon strips are some sort of a Rubber compound aren't they? The insertion decide is usually metal. Same as having an automobile tire plugged.
Dynaplugs have a brass tip on the rubber bit to facilitate insertion. The brass bit stays in the tire and might also work as a barb to resist the plug coming back out of the tire. They say there is no issue with damaging the rim, I’ve been using them and no problems so far. The tire I’ve used them in is pretty much worn out now so I will be pulling it off shortly and will see what things look like inside. Once the tail of the plug wears off I can no longer see where they are, so I am interested to see from the inside if all three of them are still there. If not, then the new Stan’s Dart might be better. Having just cleaned my bike recently to get sealant off, if Orange Seal bonds to the tire and plug as well as it bonds to my frame, sealed holes should be pretty secure!
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Old 12-16-19, 10:01 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Robert A
Yeah, but how do you practice it at home on a healthy tire?
Make a hole in your tyre that is large enough that sealant won't fix it but not too large that you have to toss the tyre.
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Old 12-16-19, 01:05 PM
  #41  
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It was 36 degrees F and raining hard last week and I punctured 2 1/2 hours into the ride and the sealant worked. Although its a hassle that diminishes with experience I find tubeless totally worth it.
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Old 12-16-19, 05:31 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi

Beyond that, you're ignoring the simple math in your "105% Rule" simple math scenario - if someone moves to wider rims, it would be necessary to also scale up to wider tires, so your "given tire width" argument is irrelevant.
I don't think so. The amount of tire that is between the 2 beads of the tire (whether a 23 or 32mm) I don't think matters as much, as that part of the tire is flexible. I believe the issue though is that whereas the 105% rule might have originally started with people putting 19mm tires on 21mm exterior width rims, that in turn had eg. 15mm inner width, the distance between the oft mentioned 'center channel' and the opposite rim edge was very small. Now apply that to 28mm tires on 21-22m inner width rims with eg. 30mm plus exterior widths, the distance between the center channel and the opposite rim edge ( which you're trying to get the 2nd bead over) is that much further away.

The reference to tubeless was meant that I don't believe people were running 19-21mm tubeless tires on those 15c rims back in the day. Now you have that ledge as part of tubeless profile, which doesn't allow the already in place first bead, to move very close to the opposite rim edge. The first bead was able to be moved very close toward the opposite side of the rim with non-tubeless setups.
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Old 12-16-19, 06:00 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I don't think so. The amount of tire that is between the 2 beads of the tire (whether a 23 or 32mm) I don't think matters as much, as that part of the tire is flexible. I believe the issue though is that whereas the 105% rule might have originally started with people putting 19mm tires on 21mm exterior width rims, that in turn had eg. 15mm inner width, the distance between the oft mentioned 'center channel' and the opposite rim edge was very small. Now apply that to 28mm tires on 21-22m inner width rims with eg. 30mm plus exterior widths, the distance between the center channel and the opposite rim edge ( which you're trying to get the 2nd bead over) is that much further away.

The reference to tubeless was meant that I don't believe people were running 19-21mm tubeless tires on those 15c rims back in the day. Now you have that ledge as part of tubeless profile, which doesn't allow the already in place first bead, to move very close to the opposite rim edge. The first bead was able to be moved very close toward the opposite side of the rim with non-tubeless setups.
None of this makes any sense. Go fit some tubeless tires to some tubeless rims and get back to us. I have a feeling that you won't, though - your approach to newer bike tech seems to analogous to the people that watch the VMAs just so they can be a little more specific when they ***** about how much music sucks these days. We get it - you don't like it. You want to poke holes in it, but you won't get close enough to do it with any authority. Just let it go, then.
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Old 12-16-19, 06:09 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
None of this makes any sense. Go fit some tubeless tires to some tubeless rims and get back to us. I have a feeling that you won't, though - your approach to newer bike tech seems to analogous to the people that watch the VMAs just so they can be a little more specific when they ***** about how much music sucks these days. We get it - you don't like it. You want to poke holes in it, but you won't get close enough to do it with any authority. Just let it go, then.
Dude.. you got issues. I'm only trying to offer an explanation on why tubeless tires are harder to mount on ever-widening rims. I'm actually intrigued and considering a TL setup but haven't gone there yet. I'm still trying to determine the tradeoffs of width vs comfort vs hassle. ymmv
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Old 12-16-19, 07:02 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Dude.. you got issues. I'm only trying to offer an explanation on why tubeless tires are harder to mount on ever-widening rims. I'm actually intrigued and considering a TL setup but haven't gone there yet. I'm still trying to determine the tradeoffs of width vs comfort vs hassle. ymmv
Who in this thread has had this problem that you speak of? I'm not seeing it. I haven't seen it in my own experience, either - I've never needed anything more than bare hands to mount a tubeless tire on to a tubeless rim. People that have that problem are those that are new to tubeless tires that don't know any better and fail to work the beads in to the center channel (which effectively makes the rim diameter smaller and makes tires easier, not harder, to fit).

And yes, my mileage does vary from yours - I actually have mileage.
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Old 12-16-19, 09:18 PM
  #46  
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Tire jack! Look it up
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Old 12-17-19, 08:11 AM
  #47  
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Well to be fair, I’ve certainly had some problems mounting a couple of tubeless tires (but Low as a percentage of all the TL’s I’ve installed). The GP5000’s that I just put on are absolutely the most difficult tire I’ve ever installed. This is my second set though and the longevity is definitely worth it.

also worth mentioning that once on for a few days if having to remove for some reason the difficulties were gone, I guess they stretch! But dang they are nasty to install on my LB wheels.
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Old 12-17-19, 08:30 AM
  #48  
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I'm on the Uber plan. My Schwalbes popped on with such force that there is NO way in hell they're coming off on the side of the road. I'm on borrowed time. I know I should deal with this in the garage - with a workbench and shop tools - and get the tires off the rims.

Seriously, this is a real issue - tires so %$*#ing tight that roadside repairs are not simply, two levers, a boot and a tube.

Each time this topic comes up, several guys chime in with the "Pinch the tire at the top, pull it into the center/deep section of the rim and work your way down..." advice. Yeah. I know. Been playing with bikes/tires for 45 years. That works on lots of tires... not all.
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Old 12-17-19, 08:33 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by robbyville
Well to be fair, I’ve certainly had some problems mounting a couple of tubeless tires (but Low as a percentage of all the TL’s I’ve installed). The GP5000’s that I just put on are absolutely the most difficult tire I’ve ever installed. This is my second set though and the longevity is definitely worth it.

also worth mentioning that once on for a few days if having to remove for some reason the difficulties were gone, I guess they stretch! But dang they are nasty to install on my LB wheels.
I don't have any personal experience with the 5k TLs, but that seems to be the nature of that tire, not a difficulty imposed by "ever widening rims" as whatshisname asserts. One club mate, with HEDs, said that they were the tightest tire he'd ever come across, too. He gave up and shelved them; he wants me to give him a hand with mounting them in the spring. Another club mate, with wider tires than the HEDs, had no problems mounting his, though.
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Old 12-17-19, 09:05 AM
  #50  
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Definitely depends on the wheel. I know the GP5K fits really well on Rovals. So far those are the only wheels I know where they mount right up without issue.
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